Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”

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Xanderoc

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Rach, what your doing on this forum is distracting. Please, if you have anything to say concerning the Lesson at hand, then show scripture making your point. Its pointless just to come on here to call me names, and waist time, not benifiting anyone. Unless your comment is about the lesson, and you can prove all things in your doctrine concerning this lesson with scripture, I would prefer if you didn't write anymore towards me.
 

Anastacia

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Xander said:
"So Continue if you must speaking evil toward what I believe, Sabbath keeper, Law keeper, Bible follower. That is who I am. That is what I believe. Everything that come out of the book."

This is who you are? Exactly. Everything you claim to be is religious. Just like the Pharisees, and we know how Jesus felt about them. You think I'm evil? You think I'm pagan and hell bound? Would you like to know how I sum myself up? Who I say I am? I LOVE Jesus. Every day I am overwhelmed with awe and gratitude and love over what the God of the universe has done for me. The more I learn, from scripture, from doctrine and theology, the more I understand the more I love! I will never understand even a fraction of what there is to know, but what I know now is that I will keep loving, keep trusting and keep growing in faith until I see my Lord face to face.

You believe that every person professing to be a Christian in mainline Christianity is in fact a pagan? A false believer?? This is an unbelievable and ignorant claim...only God can know the hearts of men. I call you heretic based on your self confessed belief that the Trinity is fiction. The fact that you speak more of following the old laws then you do of what Jesus actually said means you are an unbending, legalistic Pharisee. These are things you admit to in your posts.

You accuse others of never replying with scripture, which is just plain fallacy. When you do admit to verses being shown to you, you inevitably twist them to your own meaning, disregarding the rest of the passage and what that passage is ultimately talking about. You accuse others of never answering your questions, which is another fallacy, and frankly hypocritical as you yourself never answer our questions, you turn them aside by accusing us of attacking you. From what I see of your posts, and I do read them, you are NOT here to discuss and learn, you see this as your own forum to show unbelievers there errors.

You want to stop arguing with me? That is fine as this is giving me grief as well, but you need to know that when I see you posting such outright wrong doctrine I cannot let it just lie there uncorrected. To many Christians don't want to make waves and let things slide. We need to stand up against false doctrine and preach the love and forgiveness of Christ. You believe mainline Christianity has degenerated? This happens when we don't stand up to people who believe their doctrine is better then the message that Jesus brought.


What you say here is making me think of other "believers" who are also Torah obedient that have tried to tell me Christians aren't saved. They even want to distance themselves from us by not calling themselves Christian. They say we are not saved. I'm serious when I say I can't help it, but I can't help it but think of this scripture every time I hear one of them say were not saved. Sorry if it's rough, but I can't help it.
Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
 

Rach1370

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ECC said:
"At what point did God EVER say His laws must be kept perfectly?
Answer...
Never!!!
Now getting back to the lesson.....
What does any of what you are posting have to do with the fact that Jesus is the ONLY "...first born from the dead"?
"

Hey Ecc! I must confess to confusion! You are a strong advocate for keeping the Old Laws, to the point that you title some of your post "God will Kill some for not keeping His dietary Laws", and yet you say laws don't have to be kept perfectly. It seems you are contradicting yourself, for how can you get around the severity of God's supposed reaction to 'stuffing up'?? Lets say, as you're not perfect, you accidentally eat something not allowed. Does God perhaps have a 3 strikes, you're out thing going on?
Whats the point of having a law if you're allowed to break it, occasionally? Murder? Oh well, it's only your second one, you didn't mean it, so you don't have to go to jail.

You are right indeed that we are not perfect and we cannot keep the law perfectly, that why Jesus' sacrifice was so necessary!!
Read Romans again. Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

This tells us that the law shows us we sin...we know this because we can't keep the law perfectly! And knowing we sin and fall short, it is only through Christ we are justified!
Acts 13:38-39 "Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses."

Amen!
Oh, and as far as this thread? I've already answered it, already shown verses, and since the mods don't like us cutting and pasting our own stuff over and over, I suggest you go back and read it again!
 

Rach1370

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Rach, what your doing on this forum is distracting. Please, if you have anything to say concerning the Lesson at hand, then show scripture making your point. Its pointless just to come on here to call me names, and waist time, not benifiting anyone. Unless your comment is about the lesson, and you can prove all things in your doctrine concerning this lesson with scripture, I would prefer if you didn't write anymore towards me.

Xander, I am not sitting here and chuckling evilly as I think up new ways to insult you. Thats not who I am. I have explained to you why I reply; I do answer your questions, I do show scripture, and while I may call you things such as religious and heretic, it is by your own admissions that I come to these conclusions. (check out dictionary definitions if you want!) I am not calling you anything malicious, and really, you are freely entitled to your own opinions, but so am I, and my opinion is that you're wrong.
I suspect that we'll only know who was right once we reach the End! You completely believe you're right, and I completely believe I am!
Which kinda brings us back to the topic. You want me to comment on this thread, which I did, you want me to show you bible verses, which I did. The reason our conversation deviated like this is because you refuse to see that the verses I showed had any relation to the comment!
I showed Luke 23:32, which you said meant something else, even though you're logic didn't really follow through...I did answer that too....
I showed Phil 1:23 where Paul states that to die means to be with the Lord, you didn't answer this at all.
2 Cor 5:8 again shows Paul's belief (as he is led by the Spirits prompting) that to die is to be with Jesus....again you didn't answer this.
Rev 6:9 shows us heaven, and the souls of believers in heaven under the alter. I asked how believers could be in heaven before the judgment, without believers going to heaven before the judgment?! You didn't answer.

So really, please stop accusing me of not answering and of not showing bible verses.

Oh, by they way, if find it interesting and telling when you call this "the lesson at hand". It confirms my belief that you view this as your personal school room, to show everyone who doesn't think exactly as you do that they are wrong. This is a debate forum, you should be prepared to answer the questions and opinions that fly at you.

And to finish up, I just want to remind you...its all about Jesus! His life, death, burial and resurrection. I know you acknowledge this, and I thank God for it! But everything we discuss needs to be under the light of this. Jesus says in Matthew 22:34-40 that love is the greatest commandment! To love God and to love others! Its this love that prompts me to stand firm in biblical truth. I know you don't see this, as you think my truth is lie...but I just wanted you to know where I come from when I post.
 

Rach1370

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What you say here is making me think of other "believers" who are also Torah obedient that have tried to tell me Christians aren't saved. They even want to distance themselves from us by not calling themselves Christian. They say we are not saved. I'm serious when I say I can't help it, but I can't help it but think of this scripture every time I hear one of them say were not saved. Sorry if it's rough, but I can't help it.
Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Hey Anastacia. I makes me so sad to think of so many people who claim to worship God, but get it wrong. How many religions lay a claim to the Bible? Or a version of the bible. Even Islam 'believes' in Jesus - not as Christ, but still. The Jews themselves, man that kills me. They worship God, the true God too, but by missing Jesus it doesn't matter, they don't have salvation.
When it comes to this, I don't know the heart of men, only God does, and He knows their state of salvation, but I do wonder. Xander claims that the Trinity is a pagan belief. He claims to love Jesus, but does denial of who Jesus is mean denial of Jesus Himself? I don't know, and as Xander hasn't said exactly what he believes of the Father, Son and Spirit and the relationship between them, I just don't know. But it breaks my heart, for someone to be so close to the truth but miss the all encompassing wonder of Christ.
I draw comfort and strength from the fact that God is sovereign - people will be saved if He wants them to be, and in the end, His Will will be done and we will all celebrate!
 

Xanderoc

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Xander, I am not sitting here and chuckling evilly as I think up new ways to insult you. Thats not who I am. I have explained to you why I reply; I do answer your questions, I do show scripture, and while I may call you things such as religious and heretic, it is by your own admissions that I come to these conclusions. (check out dictionary definitions if you want!) I am not calling you anything malicious, and really, you are freely entitled to your own opinions, but so am I, and my opinion is that you're wrong.
I suspect that we'll only know who was right once we reach the End! You completely believe you're right, and I completely believe I am!
Which kinda brings us back to the topic. You want me to comment on this thread, which I did, you want me to show you bible verses, which I did. The reason our conversation deviated like this is because you refuse to see that the verses I showed had any relation to the comment!
I showed Luke 23:32, which you said meant something else, even though you're logic didn't really follow through...I did answer that too....
I showed Phil 1:23 where Paul states that to die means to be with the Lord, you didn't answer this at all.
2 Cor 5:8 again shows Paul's belief (as he is led by the Spirits prompting) that to die is to be with Jesus....again you didn't answer this.
Rev 6:9 shows us heaven, and the souls of believers in heaven under the alter. I asked how believers could be in heaven before the judgment, without believers going to heaven before the judgment?! You didn't answer.

So really, please stop accusing me of not answering and of not showing bible verses.

Oh, by they way, if find it interesting and telling when you call this "the lesson at hand". It confirms my belief that you view this as your personal school room, to show everyone who doesn't think exactly as you do that they are wrong. This is a debate forum, you should be prepared to answer the questions and opinions that fly at you.

And to finish up, I just want to remind you...its all about Jesus! His life, death, burial and resurrection. I know you acknowledge this, and I thank God for it! But everything we discuss needs to be under the light of this. Jesus says in Matthew 22:34-40 that love is the greatest commandment! To love God and to love others! Its this love that prompts me to stand firm in biblical truth. I know you don't see this, as you think my truth is lie...but I just wanted you to know where I come from when I post.
Lets read, and understand what Jesus said on the cross.
Luke 23:[sup]42[/sup]And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. [sup]43[/sup]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.( My question to all is, did Jesus mean that very day?) Let's see!
Matthew 12:[sup]39[/sup]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

[sup]40[/sup]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (So Jesus had to go into the earth for 3 days and 3 nights) Keep that in mind!
John 20:[sup]15[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

[sup]16[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. [sup]17[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(Jesus told her to touch Him not, because He had tp present himself a living sacrifice before God. so after three days, Jesus still hadn't gone to heaven. My question is, did the theif go to heaven before Jesus? I think not! )
I recall you mentioning that Thomas touched Him. Yes I understand that, but if we understand the history of sacrifice, we can come to the conclusion why Jesus said to Mary not to touch Him. I will try to make it as simple as possible for any babes that are in Christ reading this post.
Lev. 4:[sup]3[/sup]If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. 7And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; [sup]28[/sup]Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. (Notice here if a priest or common person sin through ignorance, there was a kid or bullock without blemish. That's very important, to what I will show next!) Lev 16: [sup]2[/sup]And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. ( Notice Aron was not to go at all time into the holy place within the vail? Why?)(Because the day of Atonement was once a year.) Pay attention to these verses!
Lev16: [sup]5[/sup]And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. [sup]6[/sup]And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

[sup]7[/sup]And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

[sup]8[/sup]And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

[sup]9[/sup]And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

[sup]10[/sup]But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Jesus represented both of these goats. One for sin. One for the scapegoat. They both were without blemish! 1 Peter 1:[sup]19[/sup]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Eph 5:[sup]2[/sup]And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Now that I made this point, Mari could not touch Jesus until He was presented before the father. Notice what Jesus said to Mary John 20: [sup]17[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. He told Mary to go and tell His brother He was going to ascend to unto His Father to present Himself a living sacrifice. Mary couldn't touch Him, because He had to be without blemish. Thomas touched Him after He presented Himself to the father. I understand that because of the way sacrifice was done on the day of Atonement. Hopefully that Help. And as Phil 1:23,2 Cor 5:8,Rev 6:9, If you would have read my previous post. You would of notice what I thought of these scriptures. If you want to know my thoughts, you'll have to back, and read them.

At what point did God EVER say His laws must be kept perfectly?

Answer...


Never!!!


Now getting back to the lesson.....


What does any of what you are posting have to do with the fact that Jesus is the ONLY "...first born from the dead"?


.

Hey Ecc, I appreciate the lesson, and hope to see more. The truth needs to be taught in these times, when false doctrine is running rampid. There are people searching for the truth, I'm just glad to see another brother with understanding of the scriptures giving it. Peace to you!! And continue to bring the truth!!! Be strengthen in the fact that there are people like myself paying attention, and always seeking understanding in the scriptures.
 

Anastacia

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Hey Anastacia. I makes me so sad to think of so many people who claim to worship God, but get it wrong. How many religions lay a claim to the Bible? Or a version of the bible. Even Islam 'believes' in Jesus - not as Christ, but still. The Jews themselves, man that kills me. They worship God, the true God too, but by missing Jesus it doesn't matter, they don't have salvation.
When it comes to this, I don't know the heart of men, only God does, and He knows their state of salvation, but I do wonder. Xander claims that the Trinity is a pagan belief. He claims to love Jesus, but does denial of who Jesus is mean denial of Jesus Himself? I don't know, and as Xander hasn't said exactly what he believes of the Father, Son and Spirit and the relationship between them, I just don't know. But it breaks my heart, for someone to be so close to the truth but miss the all encompassing wonder of Christ.
I draw comfort and strength from the fact that God is sovereign - people will be saved if He wants them to be, and in the end, His Will will be done and we will all celebrate!


Hi Rach, It makes me so sad too. Every single thing you say here....I, too, think of those things exactly as you say. You know, I try to discuss false doctrine with others, but I don't tell them they aren't saved. But some people try to tell me that I'm not saved. I know Jesus loves me and that I'm saved. I can't help but know they are liars when they say that. It's comforting in reading what you wrote here to me this morning.....that someone else is thinking the same things that I have been concerned about. Thank you.
 

S.T. Ranger

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One more thing Ranger, What is your point? What is the message you are trying to get across?

The message of the gospel, nothing more.

And the message that man goes into a consciousless grave when they die is a message that I see as clearly denied by scripture.

These are the doctrines I love to debate.


I have clearly stated my message, that the when a man dies, they go to the grave.

Indeed. But what do you do with Paul's message?



2 Corinthians 5


[sup]1[/sup]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

[sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[sup]5[/sup]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

[sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight:) [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.




They stay there until they are called from either the first resurrection or the second resurrection.

The problems found with this position have been brought forth, and are easily seen to disagree with what scripture relays concerning where the dead go.

It is based upon the understanding of those before the mystery of Christ was given, and is not compatible with the revelation of the New Testament, which has brought better understanding to the limited information given in the Old concerning resurrection.




The spirit that returns to God is the breath of life.

So you see the "spirit of man" as a lifeforce, disassociated from his "reasoning mind?"


You first stated the people in the old testament didn't know much of the resurrection.

Old Testament teaching concerning resurrection is very limited.


I proved your error showing Job's understanding in Job 14.


And again you use Old Testament teaching as the final word concerning resurrection.

You then stated the people in Jesus time didn't understand what Jesus meant when He stated in John 6: 39, 40, 44, 54, about raising people up the last day. I then showed you they did, by showing what Martha said about Lazarus in John 11:[sup]23[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. [sup]24[/sup]Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha's understanding was that at the "Last Day" her brother would rise from the dead.

New Testament teaching clearly shows that there will be those who will be resurrected before they die. This was an unknown fact that Martha was ignorant of.

Also, how many "last days" do you think that Martha believed there would be?

One.

You yourself have made at least two of them...

How is it that you have come to this conclusion, which does not agree with the conclusion that Martha had?

The revelation found in the New Testament.

How many times do I have to show you the truth, before you believe?

We all believe we have the truth. That God has shown it to us. Only be looking at scripture will we be able to discuss it, and to be honest, I am confident that neither of us will change our view.

But the onlooker may. That is what makes the discussion important.

It seems you get corrected, then you try to bring up something else to contradict what i have shown.

Could be.

But whether I am corrected is not really for you or I to decide.

I have yet to be corrected concerning "perfection," nor that those who are in heaven are not in heaven.

I have corrected you more than once. Are we not here to learn from one another.

You mean, "Am I not here to learn the truth from you?"

I don't think you really mean that we are going to learn from one another...not really, anyway.

Proverbs 15:[sup]31[/sup]The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.[sup]32[/sup]He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

I am willing to be corrected. I do not hold myself or my doctrine as the final word.

I hope we can learn if someone reproofs us in the truth. I have learn many things in my walk, because I was reproofed and was corrected. If it weren't so, I wouldn't of been able to see the truth. I use to believe the same as others on this forum, but I got corrected, and I thank God for my correction.

Again, I think you mean, "I hope you can can learn when I reproove you."

Because you have been swayed from what you once considered truth, does not mean I will be.

Many among the forums have their own particular truth, and despise traditional beliefs.

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation, coupled with law-keeping for salvation are doctrines that I believe to be in direct contradiction with the word of God.

I will debate them.

Any doctrine that causes men to believe that they are saved by anything other than Jesus Christ and His death on their behalf...I will earnestly contend against.

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation are doctrines that ease the conscience of the lost, and I will not ignore those who teach them.

The lost are in desperate need of knowing that there is a Holy God Who will judge them, and that there are consequences for both sin and rejecting the commandment of God to obey the gospel and be saved.

The wicked will embrace the doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation readily, being taught, "Don't worry, sin all you want, when you die, you will feel no pain, in fact, you will not even be conscious! Then, when you are judged, it will be over in a flash...God will completely destroy you."

That is the fervent wish of many that are lost today...for "everything to be over."

This is why people kill themselves, for "everything to be over."

Would a person kill themselves if they understood that they would appear before God to be judged?

That is doubtful.

But, the message of the gospel is a message of hope, that those who are dead in trespasses and sin, those who have no hope...might have life, in this world, and in the one to come.

Jesus came to give those who wish "everything was over" a living hope..one they can live by.

So I ask Ranger, what are you here for?


To bring the message of the gospel to the lost, and to tell them that there is One worth living for.

Soul sleep is a doctrine that honestly, I believe even born-again believers may believe, but I think it is in error, and I will contest it.

GTY


 
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S.T. Ranger

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Ranger, first I would like to say, I appreciate this discussion.

As do I.



Now as far as the 24 elders, they are resurrected beings reigning with Christ.

Explain how it is that they are reigning in heaven...before the beginning of the tribulation?

That the heavens are distinguished from the earth is a basic concept taught by scripture:


Genesis 1
[sup]1[/sup]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.



I never said they were angels.

I know you did not. My point is this, that they are men in heaven. At least we agree that they ae men, that has to count for something.

And the tribulation martyrs are also resurrected beings.

The tribulation martyrs are clearly shown in heaven before they are resurrected, and we see those in heaven who are told to "wait for a little time."




Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)




[sup]9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These are in heaven. They are not angels. The "last day" has not arrived.

This is a clear indication that these died, and went to heaven, and were conscious...before their resurrection, which will not take place until the end of the tribulation.

That is why I said the great white throne judgment is on the earth.

That does not change the fact (not that I agree with the GWT being on earth) that we see those who have died in heaven.



You do know Jesus, kingdom will be on the earth?

Yes, Xander.

But you do know that the GWT is after the millenniel reign? And what happens to the current earth when the MK ends? It is replaced with the New Heaven and Earth.

And as far as the witnesses are concerned, they were not put in graves, Lets read what happen when they were called to heaven,
Rev 11:[sup]3[/sup]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[sup]7[/sup]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [sup]8[/sup]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[sup]11[/sup]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

[sup]12[/sup]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[sup]13[/sup]And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

[sup]14[/sup]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

[sup]15[/sup]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

They go to heaven to be with those who are waiting.

Do you see that their resurrection takes place during the second woe...not the third? That is yet to come, and there will be a period of time between their ascenscion to heaven, and the events of the third woe.

So the witnesses bodies were in in the streets, not put in a grave. The breath of life from God entered into them they were called, but they were not the only to be called look at verse 15, the seventh angel sounded. The last trump was blown. What happens when the last trump is blown? 1Cor. 15:[sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The same thing here! 1 Thess. 4:[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is what happened to the witnesses, and all those worthy to be resurrected. But where did they go? Back to heaven?

Again, this places the resurrection of the dead in Christ (to include the two witnesses), and those who remain directly after the second woe, before the tribulation is over.

Think about that.

Zech 14: [sup]3[/sup]Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.( We can see this is future!)

[sup]4[/sup]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

(His feet standing on the mount of olives was told by the angels in Act 1:9-12)

[sup]5[/sup]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.( The Lord is going to come, and all the saints with Him.) When Jesus makes His descent, the trumpet will be blown, the resurrection will occur, then Jesus with the resurrected saint will come back to this earth! No one is going back to heaven, when He returns. The heaven the two witnesses went to was the same heaven as when Elijah got caught up. This was not the 3rd heaven. And by the way Paul never got taken to the 3rd heaven. He was speaking of Jesus.

How can they come with Him if they do not come from where He is?

And by the way Paul never got taken to the 3rd heaven. He was speaking of Jesus.

That is interesting.




2 Corinthians 12


[sup]1[/sup]It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

[sup]2[/sup]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[sup]3[/sup]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) [sup]4[/sup]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


This interpretation places Christ...in Christ!

And that Paul is not sure if Christ went to heaven...in the body (physically) or out of the body (spiritually)?

Amazing position.

Out of time for now...

GTY




 

Xanderoc

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The message of the gospel, nothing more.

And the message that man goes into a consciousless grave when they die is a message that I see as clearly denied by scripture.

These are the doctrines I love to debate.




Indeed. But what do you do with Paul's message?



2 Corinthians 5


[sup]1[/sup]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

[sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[sup]5[/sup]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

[sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight:) [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.






The problems found with this position have been brought forth, and are easily seen to disagree with what scripture relays concerning where the dead go.

It is based upon the understanding of those before the mystery of Christ was given, and is not compatible with the revelation of the New Testament, which has brought better understanding to the limited information given in the Old concerning resurrection.






So you see the "spirit of man" as a lifeforce, disassociated from his "reasoning mind?"




Old Testament teaching concerning resurrection is very limited.





And again you use Old Testament teaching as the final word concerning resurrection.



Martha's understanding was that at the "Last Day" her brother would rise from the dead.

New Testament teaching clearly shows that there will be those who will be resurrected before they die. This was an unknown fact that Martha was ignorant of.

Also, how many "last days" do you think that Martha believed there would be?

One.

You yourself have made at least two of them...

How is it that you have come to this conclusion, which does not agree with the conclusion that Martha had?

The revelation found in the New Testament.



We all believe we have the truth. That God has shown it to us. Only be looking at scripture will we be able to discuss it, and to be honest, I am confident that neither of us will change our view.

But the onlooker may. That is what makes the discussion important.



Could be.

But whether I am corrected is not really for you or I to decide.

I have yet to be corrected concerning "perfection," nor that those who are in heaven are not in heaven.



You mean, "Am I not here to learn the truth from you?"

I don't think you really mean that we are going to learn from one another...not really, anyway.



I am willing to be corrected. I do not hold myself or my doctrine as the final word.



Again, I think you mean, "I hope you can can learn when I reproove you."

Because you have been swayed from what you once considered truth, does not mean I will be.

Many among the forums have their own particular truth, and despise traditional beliefs.

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation, coupled with law-keeping for salvation are doctrines that I believe to be in direct contradiction with the word of God.

I will debate them.

Any doctrine that causes men to believe that they are saved by anything other than Jesus Christ and His death on their behalf...I will earnestly contend against.

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation are doctrines that ease the conscience of the lost, and I will not ignore those who teach them.

The lost are in desperate need of knowing that there is a Holy God Who will judge them, and that there are consequences for both sin and rejecting the commandment of God to obey the gospel and be saved.

The wicked will embrace the doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation readily, being taught, "Don't worry, sin all you want, when you die, you will feel no pain, in fact, you will not even be conscious! Then, when you are judged, it will be over in a flash...God will completely destroy you."

That is the fervent wish of many that are lost today...for "everything to be over."

This is why people kill themselves, for "everything to be over."

Would a person kill themselves if they understood that they would appear before God to be judged?

That is doubtful.

But, the message of the gospel is a message of hope, that those who are dead in trespasses and sin, those who have no hope...might have life, in this world, and in the one to come.

Jesus came to give those who wish "everything was over" a living hope..one they can live by.




To bring the message of the gospel to the lost, and to tell them that there is One worth living for.

Soul sleep is a doctrine that honestly, I believe even born-again believers may believe, but I think it is in error, and I will contest it.

GTY
Ranger said "The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation are doctrines that ease the conscience of the lost, and I will not ignore those who teach them.

The lost are in desperate need of knowing that there is a Holy God Who will judge them, and that there are consequences for both sin and rejecting the commandment of God to obey the gospel and be saved.

The wicked will embrace the doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation readily, being taught, "Don't worry, sin all you want, when you die, you will feel no pain, in fact, you will not even be conscious! Then, when you are judged, it will be over in a flash...God will completely destroy you."


I never stated that when the wicked finally gets judged it will be over in a flash. As a matter of fact, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for 1000 yrs before the second resurrection. REv. 19: [sup]20[/sup]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.( they were cast alive into the lake of fire, Rev 20:[sup]2[/sup]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, ( Time period!) vs [sup]7[/sup]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,(again time period 1000 yrs) vs [sup]10[/sup]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.( The devil got put in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet were for a 1000 years being tormented.) So God will not just judge and it will be over in a flash! Tormented forever! Ok. Now that that is cleared up! What about what Peter said concerning David in Acts 2: [sup]25[/sup]For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:[sup]26[/sup]Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: [sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[sup]28[/sup]Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

[sup]29[/sup]Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


Peter said, David was both dead, and buried, and his grave was there until that day. What Peter was saying was, David wasn't talking about himself in vs 27 [sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.( David was talking about Jesus!) ( Notice hell represents the grave. Not a place where the wicked go! I also notice Peter didn't mention anything about David spirit going to heaven. That would of been pretty important to mention! I already responded in my previous post concerning 2 Cor 5. You should try to pay more attention to my previous post. If your going to repeat the same scriptures to debate the subject. This is going to become redundant!


 

Xanderoc

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Explain how it is that they are reigning in heaven...before the beginning of the tribulation?
This vision in Rev 4 is after the tribulation, look what the 24 elders have, crowns, and sitting on thrown's. When will the righteous receive crowns. 2 Tim 4:[sup]8[/sup]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. But your saying they are already reigning in heaven. Paul said at the Lord's coming!Look what else I already have stated, First lets understand the time frame of John's vision, because that's what it was, a vision. Rev. 1:[sup]10[/sup]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (My question to you is, when is the Lord's day?) Isn't this after the tribulation.
Rev. 4:[sup]1[/sup]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This throne that is sitting in heaven. What heaven? I'll tell you, the earth! Let's read, Luke 1:[sup]31[/sup]And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

[sup]32[/sup]He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

[sup]33[/sup]And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (So Jesus is going to reign from His father David's throne. Where did David rule? In Jerusalem, on earth. Will He be the only one ruling?) Matthew 25:[sup]31[/sup]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:[sup]34[/sup]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (So there will be more rulers with him.) Luke22:[sup]29[/sup]And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [sup]30[/sup]That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Rev 3: [sup]21[/sup]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Let's go back and read)
Rev 4:[sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[sup]3[/sup]And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

[sup]4[/sup]And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Look at these 24 clothed in white raiment. What does this mean?)
Phil.3:[sup]20[/sup]For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [sup]21[/sup]Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 Cor.5: [sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.( This is why Paul makes this statement in the next couple verses.) vs [sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight:) [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (Paul knew to be absent from that vile body, he would get a new body, and be present with the Lord, at a set time. What time?)
1 Cor.15:[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [sup]53[/sup]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. To save time I just copied, and paste the same answer I gave you earlier in the thread. If your not going to pay attantion to my answers, then this is redundant!
The tribulation martyrs are clearly shown in heaven before they are resurrected, and we see those in heaven who are told to "wait for a little time."
I already went over this with you!

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)




[sup]9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I already explain the dead don't speak, and them speaking was a metephor, the same as Ables blood crying out from the earth. The blood don't cry, and the dead don't speak. The white robes represent they died in righteousness. But they still had to wait for there reward like everyone else!


That does not change the fact (not that I agree with the GWT being on earth) that we see those who have died in heaven.
That is clearly your interpretation of it.
Yes, Xander.

But you do know that the GWT is after the millenniel reign? And what happens to the current earth when the MK ends? It is replaced with the New Heaven and Earth.
Yes to the first question, Do you know the millennial reign will be on earth? So when will the 24 with crowns reign. I told you the answer. After the tribulation, when Jesus sets up His Kingdom! They are not reigning in heaven as you supposed.
They go to heaven to be with those who are waiting.
False Doctrine!
Do you see that their resurrection takes place during the second woe...not the third? That is yet to come, and there will be a period of time between their ascenscion to heaven, and the events of the third woe.
How long a period? I believe this debate has gone as far enough as my time permits me! It is clear you have your beliefs, and I have mine. So to those reading this thread may the God of Israel open your eyes to see what is true, and what is a fable. Ranger, I'm sure we will debate on other doctrines being taught in the scripture. Until then, keep searching, and seeking understanding in the scripture. Because I will...
Peace,
 

Anastacia

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If there were no such thing as a spirit of a man that could survive outside a person's body, then Paul would never even utter such words...


2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.


Peter says the gospel was preached to those who are now dead. If there is no spirit that is alive and can hear and understand, then how are the dead preached to?!

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


This scripture is in the passages where Jesus speaks to his disciples, before Jesus is arrested and crucified. And where is Jesus going? Heaven!

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
 
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Rach1370

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Great post Anastacia!!

Xander: glad you are back to discussing, but I have already addressed many of your replies. I will do so again!

You still believe that what Jesus said to the thief on the cross is invalid due to the fact that He was to be in the ground for "three days and three nights". And yes, indeed His body was lain in the tomb for that amount of time. But where does it say that His spirit was also there, imprisoned within a dead body? In fact, look at Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his Spirit.
Clearly his spirit was elsewhere for that time...

Anastacia said in her last post:
"Peter says the gospel was preached to those who are now dead. If there is no spirit that is alive and can hear and understand, then how are the dead preached to?!

1 Peter 3:19-20 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
"

Now, my opinion is something like this: remember when Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man, how after they died Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham's side, the rich man in hades? We see that Abraham is with Lazarus; indicating that when people in the Old T times died, they did in fact go somewhere! Was it heaven or just a perfect waiting place? I believe its heaven for several reasons. Anyway, we see that while their 'waiting' conditions were vastly different, they could still see one another and interact with one another. I believe that when Jesus died He went there, showing those on both sides that Gods great plan of salvation had finally been accomplished! This would have been a great joy to those in heaven, but of everlasting woe to those who wait knowing their ultimate fate. In this way I believe Jesus preached to the dead. How do you suppose those who, having died without saving grace, would have felt by Jesus' triumph? While they are in a place of torment now, it is nothing to what will be at the end judgment, when satan and unbelievers are cast into the eternal lake of fire...something that is now inevitable due to Jesus' ultimate win over sin and death!

Of course, yes, this is my opinion, which you are free to disagree with (as I know you will!), but for me, it fits best with the various passages and with what Jesus told the thief. Jesus does not lie and is not mistaken...He WAS somewhere (paradise) with that thief that day after their bodies had perished.

Heres another thought for the topic. If people who died believers don't go to heaven, then why on earth do they keep turning up there??!!
Elijah was taken "up to heaven" in 2 Kings 2:1
In Matthew 17, at Jesus' transfiguration, we hear the voice of God from heaven and see Moses and Elijah, who quite obviously are not moulding in a grave somewhere waiting for the final judgment at the end of time!

And of course on the opposite side, there are numerous mentions, by Jesus Himself of hades or sheol. Why would he talk of such a place, of souls being there, if people don’t go somewhere upon death; be it heaven or hell? Remember, the ultimate destination of the damned is the lake of fire, which is spoken of quite differently to these other places of torment.

Now, you are still wondering about Jesus telling Mary not to touch Him. And BTW, it was Thomas, not Timothy that Jesus told to touch His scars. Now, I know you don’t think much of my thoughts or opinions, or probably the thoughts and opinions of any who don’t believe the same as you, but I read some wonderful commentaries on this passage. They answer the question well and remain true to the intent of the scripture.

“’I have not yet ascended’ does not deny the fact that Jesus’ spirit went to the presence of the Father in heaven at the moment of his death but affirms that his bodily ascension after his resurrection had not yet occurred (see Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11)”. ESV study bible notes.

“It is most likely that the verb translated hold (v17) is to be understood in the sense ‘do not continue to grasp hold of me’. This would not be in contradiction with the invitation to Thomas in v27. Jesus implied that a different relationship would follow the ascension, but was not implying that after that event touching would be permitted, for clearly that would not be intelligible. The fact is that ‘touching’ is not the basis of ongoing faith. In Thomas’s case he was doubting the reality of the resurrection reports. Jesus told Mary to announce ‘I am ascending’ (rather than returning) in the sense of a continuing process which had not yet reached its climax.” New Bible Commentary.

The problem with your understanding of this passage is that once again you attach the weight of the Old T laws to what Jesus must do, has to do. Jesus is all powerful God; He must only do what He wants to. He came to fulfill the law, not to be subjected under it.

When you say that Thomas touched Him after He had presented Himself to the Father, I'm sorry but I don't see that. There is no verse within the bible that states that after He resurrected into His new body that He was back in heaven before His ascension. We know that when He resurrected it was into His new body because of the differences from His earthly body; others did not recognise Him at first, He was able to 'appear' and 'vanish' at will...through locked doors! So your idea here is completely without biblical basis.

Xander said:
"And as Phil 1:23,2 Cor 5:8,Rev 6:9, If you would have read my previous post. You would of notice what I thought of these scriptures. If you want to know my thoughts, you'll have to back, and read them"

I could not remember you directly addressing these verses, so I did indeed go back and read your thoughts/posts. You have not, in fact, addressed these things....please do so.
 

Anastacia

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Thank you so much, Rach.

I think our beliefs are so similar. I believe too that Jesus went to the hell/prison part and also to the other part where the righteous went to be comforted, where Abraham was. The only thing though is I don't know if I'd actually call it heaven, since I don't think any one went to heaven till Jesus took many captives. I've heard others call it Abraham Bosom. I'm interested in what you think, and why.


Ephesians 4:
[sup]
[sup][/sup]8
[/sup] This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.” [sup]9[/sup] (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? [sup]10[/sup] He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
 

S.T. Ranger

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Ranger said "The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation are doctrines that ease the conscience of the lost, and I will not ignore those who teach them.

The lost are in desperate need of knowing that there is a Holy God Who will judge them, and that there are consequences for both sin and rejecting the commandment of God to obey the gospel and be saved.

The wicked will embrace the doctrines of soul sleep and annihilation readily, being taught, "Don't worry, sin all you want, when you die, you will feel no pain, in fact, you will not even be conscious! Then, when you are judged, it will be over in a flash...God will completely destroy you."

Will you not comment on what is presented here?

You asked me why I was here, and I told you. You do not see that this doctrine is a balm to the wicked?


I never stated that when the wicked finally gets judged it will be over in a flash. As a matter of fact, the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire for 1000 yrs before the second resurrection. REv. 19: [sup]20[/sup]And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.( they were cast alive into the lake of fire, Rev 20:[sup]2[/sup]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, ( Time period!) vs [sup]7[/sup]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,(again time period 1000 yrs) vs [sup]10[/sup]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.( The devil got put in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet were for a 1000 years being tormented.) So God will not just judge and it will be over in a flash! Tormented forever!

I am glad that you deny the doctrine of annihilation.

You are one of the few (if not the only) that embrace soul sleep and not annihilation.

But we still have to consider, that if the devil (a fallen angel), the beast (a man), and the false prophet (also a man) are cast into the lake of fire, and are cognizant, why would we think that those who die before are not?

(And please, no need to explain the differences between hell, tartarus, and the lake of fire)

Why are not the the beast and false prophet just dead, and in the grave?


Ok. Now that that is cleared up! What about what Peter said concerning David in Acts 2: [sup]25[/sup]For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:[sup]26[/sup]Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: [sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[sup]28[/sup]Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

[sup]29[/sup]Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.


Peter said, David was both dead, and buried, and his grave was there until that day. What Peter was saying was, David wasn't talking about himself in vs 27 [sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.( David was talking about Jesus!) ( Notice hell represents the grave. Not a place where the wicked go! I also notice Peter didn't mention anything about David spirit going to heaven. That would of been pretty important to mention! I already responded in my previous post concerning 2 Cor 5. You should try to pay more attention to my previous post. If your going to repeat the same scriptures to debate the subject. This is going to become redundant!

This does not negate that Jesus said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...were alive.

Mark 12 (KJV)



[sup]18[/sup]Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

The Sadducees did not believe in the supernatural. They believed that when a person died...that was it. Neither did they believe in angels, according to tradition.



[sup]19[/sup]Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

[sup]20[/sup]Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

[sup]21[/sup]And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

[sup]22[/sup]And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

[sup]23[/sup]In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

[sup]24[/sup]And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

[sup]25[/sup]For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

[sup]26[/sup]And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
[sup]27[/sup]He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

He is the God of the living, not the dead. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's bodies were in the ground, to be sure. But their spirits were not.

To use Peter's words to bolster soul sleep is like using Paul's word's to say that preaching is foolish:

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)



[sup]21[/sup]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


We have to keep all teaching concerning those who have died in view.

Consider David again, he was certain of going to the child that died, not to be with him/her in the grave, but consciously with the child when he died.

I also notice Peter didn't mention anything about David spirit going to heaven. That would of been pretty important to mention!

Peter focuses on the fact that Jesus was resurrected, never to die again...you are comparing apples and oranges.

I already responded in my previous post concerning 2 Cor 5. You should try to pay more attention to my previous post. If your going to repeat the same scriptures to debate the subject. This is going to become redundant!

I believe that was the first time I had brought up this passage.

Perhaps you have responded to another member (I looked, but I saw no exposition on this passage).

But I can understand if you would rather not discuss this passage in detail.

I did notice your explanation of Mary not touching Jesus. You used the scapegoat.

It was mentioned by another member concerning Thomas, which you dismissed. I view Jesus' words to Mary as having the meaning of "Do not cling to me," rather than thinking that Jesus would somehow be defiled by her touching Him.

Jesus' ascension was many days down the road, and would He risk "defilement" by being touched by someone when He tells Thomas to? This is an attempt to reason which makes more of the passages involved than we need to, all in order to bolster a position.

Jesus' sacrifice was already presented and accepted, evidenced by His resurrection...not His ascension.

GTY


 

S.T. Ranger

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Hello Xander, I will break this up to make it easier to repond to, if you so choose.

This vision in Rev 4 is after the tribulation, look what the 24 elders have, crowns, and sitting on thrown's. When will the righteous receive crowns. 2 Tim 4:[sup]8[/sup]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. But your saying they are already reigning in heaven.

I am not saying it, scripture is.

The main purpose of examining the thrones was to show that, whether you want to see this as pre, mid, or post tribulation, we see souls under the alatar in heaven, which are clearly those who have died and gone to heaven...not the grave.

You have completely skirted the meat of the discussion and focused on a side issue.

Paul said at the Lord's coming!Look what else I already have stated, First lets understand the time frame of John's vision, because that's what it was, a vision.

First, how does one turn "I was in the spirit" into "I had a vision?"

And how does that negate the reality that at times a "vision" is not a "dream," but an actual occurrence?


Luke 24:23 (King James Version)


[sup]23[/sup]And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

Were the angels there, or not. Presumably these angels were there, and had to be physically manifested in order to roll away the stone.

And the time frame is given by the Lord to understand:




Revelation 1:19 (King James Version)


[sup]19[/sup]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Iwould suggest that this timeline must be found within the book itself.

Rev. 1:[sup]10[/sup]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (My question to you is, when is the Lord's day?) Isn't this after the tribulation.

If you are trying to say that this is the Day of the Lord, you cannot. You would then have to admit that it was not a "vision," but that John was there himself.

I see this as simply meaning that this was the first day of the week.

If it were the last, then John would have properly called it the Sabbath. The two are distinct.

Rev. 4:[sup]1[/sup]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This throne that is sitting in heaven. What heaven? I'll tell you, the earth!

So John was called up from the Isle of Patmos...to the earth?

Lets look at this again:

Revelation 1:19 (KJV)



[sup]19[/sup]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


John is caught up to be shown the "things which shall be hereafter."

Is Heaven something that will be "hereafter?" Or is this where John is called to be shown these things?

We see another glimpse of heaven here:

Acts 7

[sup]55[/sup]But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,



[sup]56[/sup]And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[sup]57[/sup]Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

[sup]58[/sup]And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

[sup]59[/sup]And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [sup]60[/sup]And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Was this a "vision," or did Stephen actually see the Lord?

And when Stephen cries out, is he saying, "Lord, receive my lifeforce?"

We see he fell asleep, perfectly confident that the Lord would receive his spirit, that part of him that is the conscious, immaterial part of man's existence.

GTY





Let's read, Luke 1:[sup]31[/sup]And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

[sup]32[/sup]He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

[sup]33[/sup]And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (So Jesus is going to reign from His father David's throne. Where did David rule? In Jerusalem, on earth. Will He be the only one ruling?) Matthew 25:[sup]31[/sup]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:[sup]34[/sup]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (So there will be more rulers with him.) Luke22:[sup]29[/sup]And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [sup]30[/sup]That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Rev 3: [sup]21[/sup]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I can see I will have to look through the threads that deal with the Deity of Christ, as it has been intimated you deny the Trinity. I hope that is not true.

Again, this is based upon the belief that the first heaven is the earth, something that really cannot be verified in scripture.

(Let's go back and read)
Rev 4:[sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[sup]3[/sup]And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

[sup]4[/sup]And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Look at these 24 clothed in white raiment. What does this mean?)
Phil.3:[sup]20[/sup]For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [sup]21[/sup]Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And when will all be subdued unto Himself? I suggest to you that this will not take place in totality until the New Heaven and the New Earth.

1 Cor.5: [sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.( This is why Paul makes this statement in the next couple verses.) vs [sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight:) [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (Paul knew to be absent from that vile body, he would get a new body, and be present with the Lord, at a set time. What time?)

This is syllogistic, basing the conclusion on a false premise. The receiving of the glorified body does not take place until the rapture (catching away), and Paul makes the simple statement, "To be at home in the body (his current body) is to be absent from the Lord."

His desire though, was to be with the Lord. He does not say, to be absent from the body is to be glorified, but that his desire was to be with the Lord.

Implying that Paul was speaking here of glorification is added to the text.

Consider this passage also:





Philippians 1:19-24 (KJV)




[sup]19[/sup]For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

[sup]20[/sup]According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Here Paul speaks of his current life. Whether he continues to live, or is put to death, he is confident that Christ will be magnified.

[sup]21[/sup]For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.


Paul had no fear of death, for he knew he would go to be with the Lord when he died.

[sup]22[/sup]But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[sup]23[/sup]For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Can we make "depart" mean anything other than death? If you think so, read v.21 again.

[sup]24[/sup]Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

But to remain living was more beneficial to those in the church, and this is why Paul was in a "strait." He was conflicted in his heart, wanting to both be with the Lord, yet, wanting also to continue in the work he was about.

But it is plain what Paul expected to happen when he died. Even as Stephen (no pun intended), the Lord would receive his spirit.

GTY




1 Cor.15:[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [sup]53[/sup]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. To save time I just copied, and paste the same answer I gave you earlier in the thread. If your not going to pay attantion to my answers, then this is redundant!

The point is that no-one inherits the kingdom of God in the fleshly body they were born in.

Again, apples are used to make orange juice.

Compare this passage, and tell me again how this passage is pertinent to the discussion?


Luke 24:36-40 (King James Version)




[sup]36[/sup]And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

[sup]37[/sup]But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

The first thing I would point out is that the disciples thought they saw a spirit. If the understanding they had was that the spirit is a "lifeforce," then they would also understand that a lifeforce is not something that could be seen.

But the text is clear, their understanding of a spirit was a visible manifestation which resembled a man.



[sup]38[/sup]And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

[sup]39[/sup]Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

But here is the main point for bringing up this passage...notice that the glorified Christ is saying that He has flesh and bones?

When we are glorified, we shall be like Him, and there is no question that we will have flesh and bones.

All that to point out the inconsistency with the passage you offer.

[sup]40[/sup]And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Jesus puts forth His body as evidence that He is not a spirit...again showing that to be touched would not bring "defilement" as you suggested in your other post.

I already went over this with you!

If you did, then I will apologize. But I think you must have been addressing someone else, and I have been busy, so my time has been limited to focusing on the discussion between us.

Again, if this paste was addressed to me, I apologize, and I will make sure to address every word, which I usually try to do anyway, so that this very thing does not come up.

I already explain the dead don't speak, and them speaking was a metephor, the same as Ables blood crying out from the earth. The blood don't cry, and the dead don't speak. The white robes represent they died in righteousness. But they still had to wait for there reward like everyone else!

And I answered you about that, seeing it as a weak argument.

To make this passage metaphoric is very convenient, and a weak argument. The text is clear.

That is clearly your interpretation of it.

Not just mine.

Yes to the first question, Do you know the millennial reign will be on earth? So when will the 24 with crowns reign. I told you the answer. After the tribulation, when Jesus sets up His Kingdom! They are not reigning in heaven as you supposed.

All believers are said to receive crowns as reward for certain actions, thereby expanding those who rule, reign, and judge beyond the number of 24.

I view the 24 Elders as representatives of both Old Testament saints, and New, even as the names on the foundations and walls of New Jerusalem.

False Doctrine!

Many born-again believers hold the views I do.

But I do not judge those who disagree with my position on what I view as not pertaining to major, or essential doctrine to be other than what they claim to be, followers of Christ.

I do see certain doctrines that have become popular as false, but I would rather take it to the books, than to simply dismiss it.

Just as a health problem, when it is dismissed and ignored...it gets worse.

How long a period? I believe this debate has gone as far enough as my time permits me! It is clear you have your beliefs, and I have mine. So to those reading this thread may the God of Israel open your eyes to see what is true, and what is a fable. Ranger, I'm sure we will debate on other doctrines being taught in the scripture. Until then, keep searching, and seeking understanding in the scripture. Because I will...
Peace,

If that is your decision, so be it.

I have enjoyed the discussion, though.

GTY


 

Anastacia

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xander, on 04 November 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

Rev. 1:[sup]10[/sup]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (My question to you is, when is the Lord's day?) Isn't this after the tribulation.
_________________


If you are trying to say that this is the Day of the Lord, you cannot. You would then have to admit that it was not a "vision," but that John was there himself.

I see this as simply meaning that this was the first day of the week.

If it were the last, then John would have properly called it the Sabbath. The two are distinct.



S.T.Ranger, I think from what I've been reading, from your explanations, that we have all the same beliefs concerning this.

I do feel compelled to comment on what you said about Revelation 1:10.

Some people use that scripture to try to make Sunday a special day of worship to Jesus, calling Sunday "the Day of the Lord", but I believe all days belong to Jesus, and that this scripture does not support the Sunday worship days. All the scriptures that I found that speak of the Day of the Lord, is that it is when Jesus comes back.

Now, I believe that John went to heaven in the spirit and saw visions of things shown him. In this scripture, John is seeing the Day of the Lord, and in a way, he is there on that Day. Please let me know if you don't believe the same as what I say here, and why. I don't think my belief that John saw visions shown him are the same type of vision that was seen at the transformation. Not at all. Some Bible versions do not even call it a vision, in the passage of Jesus' transformation, when Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus. Xander is false when she teaches that the time Moses and Elijah speaks to Jesus is some kind of illusion.


Here are some scriptures about the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;

it will come like destruction from the Almighty.




Isaiah 13:9 See, the day of the Lord is coming

—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—

to make the land desolate

and destroy the sinners within it.




Joel 1:15 Alas for that day!

For the day of the Lord is near;

it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

 

S.T. Ranger

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S.T.Ranger, I think from what I've been reading, from your explanations, that we have all the same beliefs concerning this.

I do feel compelled to comment on what you said about Revelation 1:10.

Some people use that scripture to try to make Sunday a special day of worship to Jesus, calling Sunday "the Day of the Lord", but I believe all days belong to Jesus, and that this scripture does not support the Sunday worship days. All the scriptures that I found that speak of the Day of the Lord, is that it is when Jesus comes back.

Now, I believe that John went to heaven in the spirit and saw visions of things shown him. In this scripture, John is seeing the Day of the Lord, and in a way, he is there on that Day. Please let me know if you don't believe the same as what I say here, and why. I don't think my belief that John saw visions shown him are the same type of vision that was seen at the transformation. Not at all. Some Bible versions do not even call it a vision, in the passage of Jesus' transformation, when Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus. Xander is false when she teaches that the time Moses and Elijah speaks to Jesus is some kind of illusion.


Here are some scriptures about the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;

it will come like destruction from the Almighty.




Isaiah 13:9 See, the day of the Lord is coming

—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—

to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.




Joel 1:15 Alas for that day!

For the day of the Lord is near;

it will come like destruction from the Almighty.




Hello Anastacia,

Please, anytime I say something that seems out of place or in error, let me know.

This is one of the ways the body is edified, and no-one, I believe, is above error.

Concerning the term "the Lord's day," I am in full agreement concerning Sunday not being a "special day," and like to believe that I consider every day as belonging to the Lord.

As far as this passage, I do not take this to be speaking about the Day of the Lord, for the very reason that the Day of the Lord did not come in circa A.D.90.

As I said, I think this to be a reference to the first day of the week, no more.

The controversy surrounding "Sunday replacing the Sabbath" is one that is ridiculous. Paul made it clear that we are not to judge the holy days of others, and usually, it is those who insist on doing this that start the debate.

They teach Sabbath observance, which is direct contradiction to what Paul teaches,

I do meet on Sunday for worship and fellowship, but, that is due to the simple fact that that is the time when my fellowship assembles.

I also see the argument that "vision" means that it was a dream, and not something that actually occurred, which I addressed in the previous post.

My personal belief concerning John is this: I believe that John saw the actual events as they occurred...God is not limited or held back by time.

I see no reason to think that God would not actually show John events as they transpired.

But that occurred after the Lord appeared to him, when he was caught up to heaven.

GTY
 

Rach1370

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Thank you so much, Rach.

I think our beliefs are so similar. I believe too that Jesus went to the hell/prison part and also to the other part where the righteous went to be comforted, where Abraham was. The only thing though is I don't know if I'd actually call it heaven, since I don't think any one went to heaven till Jesus took many captives. I've heard others call it Abraham Bosom. I'm interested in what you think, and why.


Ephesians 4:
[sup]
[sup] [/sup]8
[/sup] This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.” [sup]9[/sup] (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? [sup]10[/sup] He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


Hey Anastacia! Honestly, I don't know as it matters hugely whether they went to heaven or a 'prefect waiting place'. Consider: God is everywhere! But really the reason I posted I thought it was heaven, is because in the OT we see Elijah being "taken to heaven". Lets face it though, being taken 'heaven bound' to be with God, most people would call it 'heaven', even if it wasn't that place Jesus told His disciples He was making ready. Does that make sense?? I know what I'm trying to say, just not sure if its coming out right!!
As to what you're saying, yes, I agree. I choose to call where Abraham was 'heaven' due to the Elijah reference, but I believe that when Christ died he appeared to all those waiting spirits, giving the OT saints cause to celebrate and the damned to grind their teeth in despair. And when He ascending He took all those saints to the 'place He was preparing' - the one with many rooms.
This is only a hypothesis of mine and is not a doctrinal theory I would argue to the death for! The real important thing is that Jesus did die and then rise, and honestly, if He had spent those few days in a heavenly day spa recovering from being crucified, I wouldn't care!!
Jesus is Lord!
 

Anastacia

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Hey Anastacia! Honestly, I don't know as it matters hugely whether they went to heaven or a 'prefect waiting place'. Consider: God is everywhere! But really the reason I posted I thought it was heaven, is because in the OT we see Elijah being "taken to heaven". Lets face it though, being taken 'heaven bound' to be with God, most people would call it 'heaven', even if it wasn't that place Jesus told His disciples He was making ready. Does that make sense?? I know what I'm trying to say, just not sure if its coming out right!!
As to what you're saying, yes, I agree. I choose to call where Abraham was 'heaven' due to the Elijah reference, but I believe that when Christ died he appeared to all those waiting spirits, giving the OT saints cause to celebrate and the damned to grind their teeth in despair. And when He ascending He took all those saints to the 'place He was preparing' - the one with many rooms.
This is only a hypothesis of mine and is not a doctrinal theory I would argue to the death for! The real important thing is that Jesus did die and then rise, and honestly, if He had spent those few days in a heavenly day spa recovering from being crucified, I wouldn't care!!
Jesus is Lord!


LoL...Well, I'm glad Jesus was not just spending those days in a heavenly day spa. But, besides that---I agree with you! I love it that I found someone like minded in this. I hope to find that we have all the same beliefs. =)
Amen. Jesus is Lord! I love God's Word....