If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree of knowledge, how could they know it was wrong to do so

WaterSong said:

Consider, if the serpent, who is never actually identified as Satan in the book of Genesis,

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not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, the Devil, Satan was in the Garden, supportive scripture, Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

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WaterSong said:

I think it all hinges on Sovereignty.
God created all the angels to serve him. When he did not give Adam and Eve the knowledge to exercise their free will choice in the beginning, why would he give spirits he created to serve him and do his will, free will.

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Ok, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Who said God did not give Adam and Eve "the knowledge to exercise their free will choice in the beginning"?

WaterSong said:

Consider, if the serpent, who is never actually identified as Satan in the book of Genesis, had not been allowed to enter the garden, how would humans have come to know God and need him?

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God walked with Adam in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8), and before this it says He talked with Adam, even before the fall (Genesis 2:16). How can Adam have not already known God if he was already talking to Him before the serpent entered the picture?

Come to need Him after the fall? Yes. But as far as knowing Him, they already did.

WaterSong said:

Easy! If there was no forbidden fruit the human race would have populated the earth by Omniscient God's will and would have talked with him and walked with him forever. Because eventually Adam and Eve would have made their way to the Tree of Life and lived eternally. Never knowing sin. Or what it meant to need saving from it.
But all that did transpire, the knowledge of sin and the need to be saved from it, because first and foremost in any discussion or study of Apologetics it must be agreed upon that God is Sovereign.
If God is Sovereign no thing can happen without his knowledge, permission, or doing.
Otherwise, the serpent would have been able to overcome God's plans for humanity. Being God tells us in the OT, all things are predestined according to his will and for his own glory.

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Yes, it all hinges on His sovereignty. But if I understand your point, our coming to this understanding of needing God would not have been possible without the serpent, yes? I disagree. I think it was really only a matter of time before mankind fell, even if it were generations into the future. The serpent simply sped up the process because He resented God for casting him out, and despised man for being made in His image.

101G said:

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, the Devil, Satan was in the Garden, supportive scripture, Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

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Thank you for those scriptures.
The king of Tyre referred to in Ezekiel was Ahiram (also written as, Hiram), the king of Phoenicia and the ally of Solomon and king David.

The angels of God are spirits just as God is a spirit, the holy spirit. The adornment described in Ezekiel wouldn't make sense if it pertained to a spirit being. Nor would the tabrets. They would however be applicable to humans as adornment, etc...
Tradition leads us to think Satan is being described in those verses. However, they don't make sense if one first accepts Satan was in the beginning and after the fall, a spirit.

Are you familiar with the Midrash?
KNOW YOUR BIBLE

Hidden In Him said:

Ok, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Who said God did not give Adam and Eve "the knowledge to exercise their free will choice in the beginning"?

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That dog pic is a keeper.
How could they exercise their free will if they were unaware of good and evil, right and wrong in order to make an informed choice to obey or disobey?
Is a newborn possessed of the cognition that would permit them to exercise free will?
Further, consider the scriptures that tell us about God and predestination. Are humans able to exercise free will within the dominion of Omniscient Omnipotent Sovereign God having predestined all things according to his will and plan? Proverbs 16:9

WaterSong said:

Thank you for those scriptures.
The king of Tyre referred to in Ezekiel was Ahiram (also written as, Hiram), the king of Phoenicia and the ally of Solomon and king David.

The angels of God are spirits just as God is a spirit, the holy spirit. The adornment described in Ezekiel wouldn't make sense if it pertained to a spirit being. Nor would the tabrets. They would however be applicable to humans as adornment, etc...
Tradition leads us to think Satan is being described in those verses. However, they don't make sense if one first accepts Satan was in the beginning and after the fall, a spirit.

Are you familiar with the Midrash?
KNOW YOUR BIBLE

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first thanks for the reply, second, was the The king of Tyre, or Ahiram in the garden of eden? yes or no?

also, God the Spirit, is not a spirit as the angels. for the angels never saw God untill he came in flesh. see 1 Timothy 3:16.

so I'll be looking for your reply.


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WaterSong said:

Thank you for those scriptures.
The king of Tyre referred to in Ezekiel was Ahiram (also written as, Hiram), the king of Phoenicia and the ally of Solomon and king David.

The angels of God are spirits just as God is a spirit, the holy spirit. The adornment described in Ezekiel wouldn't make sense if it pertained to a spirit being. Nor would the tabrets. They would however be applicable to humans as adornment, etc...
Tradition leads us to think Satan is being described in those verses. However, they don't make sense if one first accepts Satan was in the beginning and after the fall, a spirit.

Are you familiar with the Midrash?
KNOW YOUR BIBLE

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The text is an allegory, comparing the king with the Lucifer before his fall from glory through pride. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Midrash. The Jews have engaged in a LOT of speculation over the centuries, and only rarely will you find much that can be trusted as of much value theologically. They reject Christ as the Messiah, so naturally they will approach things from an entirely different perspective; one without an awareness of the most crucial revelation of all.

Hidden In Him said:

God walked with Adam in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8), and before this it says He talked with Adam, even before the fall (Genesis 2:16). How can Adam have not already known God if he was already talking to Him before the serpent entered the picture?

Come to need Him after the fall? Yes. But as far as knowing Him, they already did.

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Did Adam need to know God as savior then?


[quot]Yes, it all hinges on His sovereignty. But if I understand your point, our coming to this understanding of needing God would not have been possible without the serpent, yes? I disagree. I think it was really only a matter of time before mankind fell, even if it were generations into the future. The serpent simply sped up the process because He resented God for casting him out, and despised man for being made in His image.[/QUOTE] It's called the fall. We were separated from God at the fall.
Unlike us, Adam and Eve did not have need (to know) of a Savior before the fall.

101G said:

first thanks for the reply, second, was the The king of Tyre, or Ahiram in the garden of eden? yes or no?

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Yes. Per the Midrash. Do you believe only Adam and Eve existed in the garden?
[sic]"...CHAPTER 28

After having addressed the CITY of TZOR in the previous chapter, the prophet is now told to turn to her RULER, the "Prince of TZOR", who was the very epitome of the maritime empire's arrogance. "Because your heart is lifted up and you have said 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of God in the heart of the seas', but you are a man and not a god, yet you set your heart as the heart of God" (v 2).

According to tradition, the "Prince of TZOR" is none other than Hiram king of Tyre , who was a friend of King David and collaborated with King Solomon in the building of the Temple in Jerusalem , and who is said to have lived for a thousand years! We learn from verse 15 of the present chapter that initially, "you were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created until iniquity was found in you". To have been a friend of the righteous King David and to have played a key role in the building of Solomon's Temple , Hiram must indeed have been a most exceptional CHASSID UMOS HA-OLAM (a saint of the nations of the world). Indeed our sages said that Hiram was one of thirteen who did not taste the taste of death (together with Enoch, Eliezer servant of Abraham, Methuselah, Eved Melech HaKushi, Batia daughter of Pharaoh, Serah daughter of Asher, the three sons of Korach, Elijah, Mashiach and Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi - Yalkut Shimoni). Hiram is listed as one of nine who entered the Garden of Eden while they were still alive (Avos d'Rabbi Nathan). But the same source cites the view that Hiram was removed from there and his place was taken by R. Yehoshua ben Levi (Avos d'Rabbi Nathan).

"You have been in Eden , the garden of God ; every precious stone was your covering." (v 13). This verse lists ten different kinds of precious stones, and is the foundation of the midrashic teaching that when God brought Eve to Adam in the Garden of Eden, He made him ten CHUPOS (marriage canopies). This midrash (which conceals much more than it reveals) is based upon the style of DRUSH known as "understanding one thing from another". The ten canopies are not mentioned directly in the Biblical text in Genesis, but since Ezekiel reveals the adornments enjoyed by Hiram in Eden , the midrash deduces that these were the adornments that God brought for Adam and Eve.

The above-mentioned view that Hiram was removed from Eden is also expressed in a lengthy midrash in Yalkut Shimoni giving a detailed description of an enormous phantasmagorical "sky-scraper" structure of seven "firmaments" that he built out of steel, glass and other materials, plating it with gold and studding it with precious stones, in order to provide a fitting throne for himself. This description brings to mind many modern expressions of the same kind of arrogance, such as the late lamented World Trade Center . The midrash concludes: "Hiram became arrogant because he had sent cedars for the Temple . The Holy One blessed be He said, I will destroy My House so that Hiram will not be able to vaunt himself over Me. What was his end? The Holy One blessed be He brought up against him Nebuchadnezzar, who raped his mother in front of his eyes and took him down from his throne and used to cut off two finger-breadths of his flesh every day and dip them in vinegar and make him eat them until he died a horrible death. And what happened to his palaces? The Holy One blessed be He tore apart the earth and hid them away for the righteous in the world to come" (Yalkut Shimoni). [end excerpt]

also, God the Spirit, is not a spirit as the angels. for the angels never saw God untill he came in flesh. see 1 Timothy 3:16.

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That's not what that verse is saying.

so I'll be looking for your reply.

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How 'bout now?

WaterSong said:

I think it was really only a matter of time before mankind fell, even if it were generations into the future.

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Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

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WaterSong said:

How could they exercise their free will if they were unaware of good and evil, right and wrong in order to make an informed choice to obey or disobey?

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Just because someone is not aware of the consequences of their actions doesn't mean they don't possess free will. They may not have made a fully "informed" choice, but they were nevertheless free to either:

A. make the boo boo, or
B. not make the boo boo, yes?

WaterSong said:

Is a newborn possessed of the cognition that would permit them to exercise free will?

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No, no. Bad analogy, LoL. These were adults.

The following is not what God created to tend the garden:

WaterSong said:

Further, consider the scriptures that tell us about God and predestination. Are humans able to exercise free will within the dominion of Omniscient Omnipotent Sovereign God having predestined all things according to his will and plan? Proverbs 16:9

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I think you need to read Backlit's post about the angels being Calvinists again, LoL. Your proverb doesn't say what you suggest it does, nor do the other passages used to support that theology. He predestines us to follow a particular course and plan, but the choice to do so or not is still ours.

WaterSong said:

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Please clarify: Are you saying this kitty was predestined to ride in this swing and wear sunshades, and a nice pink sweater? You have evidence from the Creation account?

Hidden In Him said:

The text is an allegory, comparing the king with the Lucifer before his fall from glory through pride. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Midrash. The Jews have engaged in a LOT of speculation over the centuries, and only rarely will you find much that can be trusted as of much value theologically. They reject Christ as the Messiah, so naturally they will approach things from an entirely different perspective; one without an awareness of the most crucial revelation of all.

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Even as an allegory the king of Tyre would be a strange comparison to Lucifer or to the serpent of Eden if we consider all of the actual king of Tyre's description in scripture.

WaterSong said:

Per the Midrash. Do you believe only Adam and Eve existed in the garden?

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not the Midrash, but the bible yes, for they had "Children" in the Garden, before the fall. and I believe all humans came from the the one person Adam and his wife Eve,

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

101G said:

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

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What you quoted there and responded to with the verse above was not from my postings. Rather, that quote was from Hidden In Him.

101G said:

not the Midrash, but the bible yes, for they had "Children" in the Garden, before the fall. and I believe all humans came from the the one person Adam and his wife Eve,

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

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What passage in the OT reports Adam and Eve produced children while still in Eden?

WaterSong said:

Even as an allegory the king of Tyre would be a strange comparison to Lucifer or to the serpent of Eden if we consider all of the actual king of Tyre's description in scripture.

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Evil is evil, example, Matthew 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

a viper is a type of serpent.

WaterSong said:

What passage in the OT reports Adam and Eve produced children while still in Eden?

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Genesis 3:16, and Genesis 3:20. both verses, (kjv).

if you need help in understanding, just ask.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

WaterSong said:

Even as an allegory the king of Tyre would be a strange comparison to Lucifer or to the serpent of Eden if we consider all of the actual king of Tyre's description in scripture.

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Well not really. The big issue with this king was that he was making himself as God, much like Lucifer did. Hence the passage starts as follows:

1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, 'Thus saith the Lord God; "Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;' yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:" 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God..."

Hidden In Him said:

Just because someone is not aware of the consequences of their actions doesn't mean they don't possess free will. They may not have made a fully "informed" choice, but they were nevertheless free to either:

A. make the boo boo, or
B. not make the boo boo, yes?

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Ask and answer that question as pertains to a newborn. Then, given the consequences of 'making a boo boo', per the scriptures with regard to eating of the forbidden fruit, consider asking and answering that question as pertains to a newborn if the yes answer would result in the boo boo that would separate that newborn from their parent forever. (Or until a savior parent took their place generations later in the NT)

No, no. Bad analogy, LoL. These were adults.

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Yes. That did not possess knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, obedience or disobedience and their consequences.

The following is not what God created to tend the garden:

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True. Per cognition in adult bodies.

I think you need to read Backlit's post about the angels being Calvinists again, LoL. Your proverb doesn't say what you suggest it does, nor do the other passages used to support that theology. He predestines us to follow a particular course and plan, but the choice to do so or not is still ours.

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Not according to that passage in Proverbs.
And not if you want to harmonize the scriptures that refer to God's absolute sovereignty and having predestined all things according to his will and plan.
How do you qualify absolute sovereignty of a creator of all things, with humans having the free will to do anything they wish and that would , by your argument, be outside of God's control or awareness prior?

Please clarify: Are you saying this kitty was predestined to ride in this swing and wear sunshades, and a nice pink sweater? You have evidence from the Creation account?

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Sure. God created the cat first. Prior to the fall putting a sweater and sunglasses on a cat and setting them in a swing would seem innocent fun. After the fall it would seem like an unnecessary and meaningless act unless God predestined cats to wear sweaters, sunglasses, and sit in a swing.

Did God predestine the Boxer dog to be contained in a room while looking through glass at someone with a camera?

Hidden In Him said:

Well not really. The big issue with this king was that he was making himself as God, much like Lucifer did. Hence the passage starts as follows:

1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, 'Thus saith the Lord God; "Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;' yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:" 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God..."

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on POINT, and we have some of those king of Tyrus amoung us today... they want to be God. but "pride", come before the fall. Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Isaiah 14:10 "All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"Isaiah 14:11 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"Isaiah 14:17 "That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house."Isaiah 14:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."Isaiah 14:20 "Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned."Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."Isaiah 14:22 "For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD."Isaiah 14:23 "I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts."Isaiah 14:24 "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

101G said:

Evil is evil, example, Matthew 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

a viper is a type of serpent.

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Yes, I know. I've handled actual vipers before. And I've met a few who walk on two feet. I prefer the ones without feet.

Genesis 3:16, and Genesis 3:20. both verses, (kjv).

if you need help in understanding, just ask.

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Was verse 16 before Eve consumed the forbidden fruit?
Re: Verse 20, where is there described the expulsion from the garden of all her offspring as well as she and Adam?