Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”

S.T. Ranger · Nov 15, 2010

Eccl.12:13 said:
This is the time Paul speaks of as far as becoming perfect, NOT the coming of the Messiah!

Perfection, as found in the book of Hebrews, is salvation in Christ.

The Old Testament saints could not be made perfect until their sin was atoned for.

Why?

Hebrews 10

[sup]1[/sup]For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. [sup]2[/sup]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

The law could not take away sin, and the penalty for it.

[sup]3[/sup]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

[sup]4[/sup]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

That changed when Christ died on the Cross.

[sup]9[/sup]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

What is the first? Hebrews 9:1 (KJV); Hebrews 9:18 (KJV).

[sup]10[/sup]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Positional santification is in view here...it is accomplished once through Christ's death on our behalf.

[sup]11[/sup]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

The sacrifices offered by the priests for atonement for sin were part of the First Covenant, neither they (sacrifices) nor it (Covenant of Law) could take away sins. Which is why they could not make perfect. Hebrews 10:1 (KJV)

[sup]12[/sup]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Having offered the one-time, forever effectual sacrifice for all sins...Christ cried, "It is finished."

[sup]13[/sup]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

When He comes a second time, it will not be to make atonement for sin, but to judge those who obey not the gospel, which will forever proclaim that Christ is Savior through His death, burial, and resurrection.

[sup]14[/sup]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Under the First Covenant, the Old Testament saints could not be made perfect, for their sins were as of yet unpaid.

But now, through Christ's offering of Himself, the new and living way, we are made perfect in Him.

Forever.

GTY

Anastacia · Nov 15, 2010

Eccl.12:13 said:
My replies to Ecc.12:13 in blue.

Paul did NOT say they RECEIVED the promise. What Paul said is that they would not received the promise without him.

Hebrews 11:[sup]39[/sup] These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [sup]40[/sup] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

The scriptures say "yet none of them received what had been promised," you say it is about receiving a resurrected body. How does that make sense? They were waiting for the resurrection? The Old Testament faithful AND Paul would STILL NOT of received what was promised. So why then would Paul say "only together with us would they be made perfect"?

1 Peter 1
[sup]8[/sup] Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, [sup]9[/sup] for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. [sup]10[/sup] Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, [sup]11[/sup] trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. [sup]12[/sup] It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

The promise was not the coming of the Messiah, for He was with ALL of the saints and the prophets of the OT. For the Messiah, Jesus Christ WAS the God of the OT!

What? You are saying it is not about the Messiah coming to the world, to die for us, and that we might be reconcilled to God, by grace through the blood of His Son?!
Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John 8
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
1 Cor.10
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

The promise was eternal life.

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Tit.1
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 John 2
[25] And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

And in order to receive eternal life you must become literally perfect.

Hebrews 7:[sup]11[/sup] If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? [sup]12[/sup] For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Hebrews 7: [sup]18[/sup] The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless [sup]19[/sup] (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 10:[sup]1[/sup] The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:[sup]13[/sup] and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [sup]14[/sup] For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 10:[sup]40[/sup] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Did you see that? Hebrews 10 is about being made perfect by the "one sacrifice"!!! So........Hebrews 10:40 is about being made perfect through faith in Jesus!!!! Just try to deny that now!

And when does one become perfect? For some it will be when the Lord returns. For others it will be at Judgement.

But NO ONE has at this time attained perfection. Let's read just when it will happen....

1 Corth.15
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is the time Paul speaks of as far as becoming perfect, NOT the coming of the Messiah!

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 16, 2010

First; what Paul is saying in Heb. has nothing to do with the topic of this lesson which is, "why Jesus is given the following titles;

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Why is Jesus called, "...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

If there have been others that have died and was raised from the dead BEFORE Jesus, how is it God's Holy word calls Jesus, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

Now getting to one of your statements;

The scriptures say "yet none of them received what had been promised," you say it is about receiving a resurrected body. How does that make sense? They were waiting for the resurrection?

What? You are saying it is not about the Messiah coming to the world, to die for us, and that we might be reconcilled to God, by grace through the blood of His Son?!

It is not me saying it is about the resurrection, it is God's Holy word saying what the promise is. Let's read it again....

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Tit.1
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 John 2
[25] And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

So please........tell me what God's Holy word says the promise is?

Of course Jesus had to come and die for the sins of the world, but it was BECAUSE of His death we are able to receive God's promise. His coming and dying was NOT the promise.

Jesus coming and dying was a MEANS by which we could receive God's promise of eternal life!

Now concerning your statement about perfection;

Hebrews 10 is about being made perfect by the "one sacrifice"!!! So........

Hebrews 10:40 is about being made perfect through faith in Jesus!!!! Just try to deny that now!

Perfection means just that.....PERFECT! And if a person became perfect once they believed on Jesus Christ that would mean it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to sin.

But is that the case? If it were, why would there be a need for the following?

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now YOU say one is made "Perfect" through faith in Jesus Christ! So how is it possible for one that has received the knowledge of the truth AND have been made perfect to commit sin?

Does THAT make sense? Let's look at another verse.

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Looks like the above is pretty close to being "perfect"! But let's read what could happen to even them...

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

God's Holy word tells us that it is possible for some that have been, "...made partakers of the Holy Ghost..."
to fall away!

So tell me, just when does this perfection you speak of take place? I'll show you! Let's read....

1 Cor.15
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And WHEN shall we bear the heavenly image? Let's read...

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is when we become perfect. How do I know? Because it at this time something different will happen for all those that are raised from the dead.

[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Please understand something....ALL, as in EVERY LAST ONE of ALL those that was raised from the dead had to DIE again!

Jesus did something different when He was raised from the dead!

When MY God was rasied from the dead He did something NO ONE has EVER done before....

HE IS YET ALIVE!!!!

And THAT is why He bears the titles;

"...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."

.

Anastacia · Nov 16, 2010

Eccl.12:13 said:
First; what Paul is saying in Heb. has nothing to do with the topic of this lesson which is, "why Jesus is given the following titles;

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Why is Jesus called, "...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

If there have been others that have died and was raised from the dead BEFORE Jesus, how is it God's Holy word calls Jesus, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

Now getting to one of your statements;

It is not me saying it is about the resurrection, it is God's Holy word saying what the promise is. Let's read it again....

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Tit.1
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1 John 2
[25] And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

So please........tell me what God's Holy word says the promise is?

Of course Jesus had to come and die for the sins of the world, but it was BECAUSE of His death we are able to receive God's promise. His coming and dying was NOT the promise.

Jesus coming and dying was a MEANS by which we could receive God's promise of eternal life!

Now concerning your statement about perfection;

Perfection means just that.....PERFECT! And if a person became perfect once they believed on Jesus Christ that would mean it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to sin.

But is that the case? If it were, why would there be a need for the following?

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now YOU say one is made "Perfect" through faith in Jesus Christ! So how is it possible for one that has received the knowledge of the truth AND have been made perfect to commit sin?

Does THAT make sense? Let's look at another verse.

Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Looks like the above is pretty close to being "perfect"! But let's read what could happen to even them...

[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

God's Holy word tells us that it is possible for some that have been, "...made partakers of the Holy Ghost..."
to fall away!

So tell me, just when does this perfection you speak of take place? I'll show you! Let's read....

1 Cor.15
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And WHEN shall we bear the heavenly image? Let's read...

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is when we become perfect. How do I know? Because it at this time something different will happen for all those that are raised from the dead.

[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Please understand something....ALL, as in EVERY LAST ONE of ALL those that was raised from the dead had to DIE again!

Jesus did something different when He was raised from the dead!

When MY God was rasied from the dead He did something NO ONE has EVER done before....

HE IS YET ALIVE!!!!

And THAT is why He bears the titles;

"...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."

You can't seem to grasp that we have a body and a spirit. A body together with a spirit makes a "soul," the spirit makes our body alive. A soul without the body is a "spirit," and a body without the spirit is dead.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

You can't seem to grasp the fact that the Bible tells us of life with Jesus after death of the body and life with Jesus after a new resurrected body.

You also can't seem to grasp that the Bible tells us of life in heaven, and about a life with Jesus on the new earth.

As for your argument on the only promise being eternal life, you then have to deny all of God's promises.

I'm not going to continue talking about this with you because you are blind to the power of God, nor do you know the scriptures. I'm just trying to repeat to you what Jesus said to the Sadducees that don't believe in spirits nor the resurrection. Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

Here are some scriptures about the promise of the Messiah.
Acts 13
[sup]23[/sup] “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. [sup]24[/sup] Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. [sup]25[/sup] As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not the one you are looking for. But there is one coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

[sup]26[/sup] “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. [sup]27[/sup] The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. [sup]28[/sup] Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. [sup]29[/sup] When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. [sup]30[/sup] But God raised him from the dead, [sup]31[/sup] and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

[sup]32[/sup] “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors [sup]33[/sup] he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’

[sup]34[/sup] God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’[sup][c][/sup]

[sup]35[/sup] So it is also stated elsewhere:

“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.[sup]][/sup]

[sup]36[/sup] “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. [sup]37[/sup] But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

[sup]38[/sup] “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. [sup]39[/sup] Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. [sup]40[/sup] Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: [sup]41[/sup] “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”

Romans 1:[sup]2[/sup] the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Romans 4:[sup]13[/sup] It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. [sup]14[/sup] For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, [sup]15[/sup] because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

2 Corinthians 1:[sup]19[/sup] For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” [sup]20[/sup] For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Galatians 3:[sup]21[/sup] Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. [sup]22[/sup] But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. [sup]23[/sup] Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

Ephesians 3: [sup]6[/sup] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, in keeping with the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 11:[sup]13[/sup] All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

(Did you see that? They did not receive the "things" promised.)

James 2:[sup]5[/sup] Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? [sup]6[/sup] But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?

Luke 17:[sup]20[/sup] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [sup]21[/sup] nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

2 Peter 1:[sup]3[/sup] His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. [sup]4[/sup] Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 16, 2010

Can you just answer the ONE question this lesson is about?

Why is Jesus called, "...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

There have been others that have died and was raised from the dead way BEFORE Jesus, how is it God's Holy word calls Jesus, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

The ONLY spirit that is in man is the one that God put into him from the beginning, and the bible is very clear on what God put into man.

Gen.2
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God's holy word only gives us (2) items here: 1.Dust of the ground. 2.The breath of God.

Now let's look at this, "breath of God".

Gen.6
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Did you catch that? God destroyed all Flesh that had what? The breath of life! That is the ONLY thing God put in man when He made him.

Let’s read what Job had to say about it;

Job 9
[18] He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

Above Job is saying God will not kill him, by taking away his breath.

Job 27
[3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Here Job calls the breath within, “the spirit of God”!

Again..this is the ONLY spirit that is within man. And when man dies that same breath, or spirit as Job calls it, returns to God.

Do you really think God would make something that was incorruptable, our bodies, Perfect to be with Him, THEN,

Make it incorruptable again to bring some back to life to live on this earth, THEN,

Make them perfect again the second time after they die?

Does that make sense?

.

Anastacia · Nov 16, 2010

Eccl.12:13 said:
My replies to Ecc.12:13 in blue.

Can you just answer the ONE question this lesson is about?

This "lesson" is about just ONE question?!

Why is Jesus called, "...firstborn among many brethren...", "...firstborn of every creature..." and, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

Jesus being called firstborn among many brethren and firstborn from the dead is not the exact same in subject as being called firstborn of every creature.

There have been others that have died and was raised from the dead way BEFORE Jesus, how is it God's Holy word calls Jesus, "...firstborn from the dead..."?

This has been explained to you before, and not just by me. Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead and given an immortable body.

The ONLY spirit that is in man is the one that God put into him from the beginning, and the bible is very clear on what God put into man.

Gen.2
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God's holy word only gives us (2) items here: 1.Dust of the ground. 2.The breath of God.

Now let's look at this, "breath of God".

Gen.6
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Did you catch that? God destroyed all Flesh that had what? The breath of life! That is the ONLY thing God put in man when He made him.

Let’s read what Job had to say about it;

Job 9
[18] He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

Above Job is saying God will not kill him, by taking away his breath.

Job 27
[3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Here Job calls the breath within, “the spirit of God”!

Again..this is the ONLY spirit that is within man. And when man dies that same breath, or spirit as Job calls it, returns to God.

Do you really think God would make something that was incorruptable, our bodies, Perfect to be with Him, THEN,

WE WILL HAVE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES! That doesn't mean we don't have a spirit. We will not have redemption of our bodies until the resurrection...on the last day.

Make it incorruptable again to bring some back to life to live on this earth, THEN,

Make them perfect again the second time after they die?

Does that make sense?

You have already asked this before, maybe more than once before, and you have already been given the answer AND had the answer explained to you. Go back and find the answer.
You want to keep your doctrine of death, and your delayed life doctrine...then keep it.

Rach1370 · Nov 16, 2010

Hey Ecc. It's kind of impossible for me to jump back in at this point and reply to all the questions above, so I'll just address the one you seem most stuck on.
Jesus, the first born. Yup, most definitely. Jesus was the first, and at this point, the only one to have died and then be resurrected with a perfect body.

But I think what everyone else is trying to say and that you're missing is that just because people who are dead now, and those that will die before Jesus second coming don't yet have their new perfect bodies, does NOT mean that we cease to exist until that day.
When Jesus died for us, those who received Him were given a new spirit. When we die our earthly bodies enter the grave to slowly rot, but our new, regenerated spirit will go to be with our Lord. And there we will be until that day when our spirit is granted a new perfect body to go with our new spirit.
I know you claim this to be false, so let me follow your reasoning through....
You say that there are no spirits (when the bible talks of them it only speaks of evil angels)....but Jesus had/has a spirit. To claim otherwise is to say that in the 3 days and nights He was 'in the ground' that Jesus 'didn't exist'. That He was truly imprisoned within His dead body. This is not true, it cannot be true, as Jesus is God. So no matter what you think Jesus was doing during those days, He had a spirit..."[50] And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit." (Matthew 27:50 ESV)". He then resurrected into a new perfect body.
Paul joyously talks of how what happened to Jesus is a model of what we hope in for ourselves (1 Corinthians 15). He talks of Jesus being the first fruits and that we will follow Him in receiving a new body on the day of His return. However, before you jump up and say 'see!', Paul goes on in other places: "[8] Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
(2 Corinthians 5:8 ESV)
[23] and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
(Hebrews 12:23 ESV)
Now why would Paul (writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit) think and say that he fully expected that as soon as he died he would be with Jesus, if that were not also true?

[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
(Revelation 6:9 ESV)
John sees believers under the alter of heaven....how do we get believers in heaven before the very end, if believers do not go to heaven??

So it comes down to logic. The Bible does not lie, nor does it contradict itself. So:

With Jesus' death and resurrection we are given a new spirit.
We do not receive a perfect body until Jesus returns
But we do go to be with Jesus after death.

This leaves us (by us I mean the majority of Biblical scholars as well as the people who wrote the Bible) with the conclusion that after death, before we recive our new bodies, we dwell with Jesus in the spirit.

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 16, 2010

OK...let's put you logic to the test of the scriptures....

You believe you go to be with God at death,

"but our new, regenerated spirit will go to be with our Lord. And there we will be until that day when our spirit is granted a new perfect body to go with our new spirit.

So just where are these spirits being held until the perfect body is given? Are there TWO sections to heaven now?

God's holy word says the following;

1 Cor.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

So when is the spirit that has left the body raised in incorruption and given a perfect body?

Because if it has not been given a PERFECT body it cannot be in the presense of God!

And getting back to my other question, So Lazarus spirit was held in "limbo", brought back and given a natural body when he was brought back to life, DIED again and his spirit went BACK in "limbo" until it is given a perfect body to dwell in?

Sounds very close to another unbiblical doctrine.........

Purgatory!!!

So just where are ALL of these spirits being held until, as you say, "...until that day when our spirit is granted a new perfect body to go with our new spirit."

.

Anastacia · Nov 16, 2010

Ecc.12:13,

Here are some scriptures for you on being holy and perfect. (Remember you said we are only considered perfect after we die and are given a new body at the resurrection.) Maybe you should reconsider what you said, and start getting ready for the Lord.

Hebrews 10
[sup]10[/sup] And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[sup]14[/sup] For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 11
[sup]39[/sup] These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [sup]40[/sup] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12
[sup]2[/sup] fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

[sup]23[/sup] to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

John 17
[sup]19[/sup] For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Ephesians 5
[sup]26[/sup] to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Hebrews 2
[sup]11[/sup] Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

[sup]14[/sup] How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 10
[sup]1[/sup] The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

[sup]12[/sup] And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

1 Peter 2
[sup]24[/sup] “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

2 Corinthians 7
[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Philippians 3
[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

2 Corinthians 13
[sup]9[/sup] We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is that you may be fully restored.

[sup]11[/sup] Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Titus 2
[sup]14[/sup] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

James 4
[sup]8[/sup] Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 John 1
[sup]9[/sup] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5
[sup]23[/sup] May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2
[sup]13[/sup] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[sup][a][/sup] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

1 Peter 1
[sup]2[/sup] who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Rach1370 · Nov 17, 2010

Ecc, I've already covered all those questions of yours....you can ask them a billion times if you wish, won't change the answer. Go back and look if you want...if you actually deign to respond to my answers then perhaps we can continue the conversation.
You claim to be following logic, but then jump into wild supposition. You ask me "Are there TWO sections to heaven now?"
You know what? I'm sure if God chooses there could be a hundred sections of heaven...He has not chosen to reveal this to us, and neither has he said that spirits are not with Him. You make a guess from a guess. Not logic and not biblical at all...certainly not logic drawn straight from the Bible.
You chose to completely miss/dismiss or ignore the issue of Jesus granting us a NEW spirit, one that grants us righteousness with God. Are you claiming that the sacrifice Jesus made, to give us this new spirit, to make us right in Gods eyes, is not enough?
And as for purgatory...I certainly don't believe in it....it is you who are claiming that if a person continues as spirit after death, then it cannot be with Jesus....which is completely opposite of scripture...please read and acknowledge Paul's writings. Unless you believe he is mistaken, which would be tantamount to dismissing the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that for the purposes of this discussion (which you choose to call a 'lesson', revealing in its own right) that you have totally missed God's sovereignty and Lordship. He can achieve all, and He need not share the reason or the how and why with us. The Bible tells us all we need for salvation and to know Him as the loving God of grace that He is. His plan of salvation was and is so amazing and complex that if He had not chosen to share it with us through scripture, we would never have seen or understood it. Likewise, His dealing with us after death, our spirits....that is for us to know then, when we are face to face with Him. He is kind enough to grant us reassurance through scripture, through Paul's comforting words, but honestly, claiming that "we MUST be perfect", "God CANT stuff perfect back into imperfect"....I'm sorry, it's ludicrous and a touch arrogant.

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 17, 2010

"...it is you who are claiming that if a person continues as spirit after death, then it cannot be with Jesus..."

This is NOT my claim at all! My claim is only what the bible says, which is the following,

Jesus is called, "...the firstborn among many brethren...", "...the firstborn of every creature..." and, "...the firstborn from the dead..." for a reason!

And that reason is that He is the ONLY one that was born a flesh and blood man, was killed, and now has a spirit body!

Like I have pointed out....there have been many that were born of a woman, died and was brought back to life....BUT.....they ALL died again!

What was different about Jesus sequence of events is that he is the ONLY one that was born of a woman, died and NOW has a spirit body! He did NOT see death for a second time. He was raised incorruptable with a spirit body.

That is what was different about His resurrection and that is why, though there have been others that have been raised from the dead, NONE of them have been made perfect!

If they had been made perfect, then God's holy word has lied when it told the writers to write that Jesus was, "...the firstborn among many brethren...", "...the firstborn of every creature..." and, "...the firstborn from the dead..."

Just as job said,

"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job knew there was to be a change from the body he was in AND when that change would happen.

Paul tells us that ALL of the saints that have died WILL not receive perfection without him. So if THEY did not receive it upon their death, nor did Paul. They will ALL receive it at the same time...

1 Cor.15
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And WHEN shall we bear the heavenly image? Let's read...

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

As far as the spirit that God put into man....the scriptures are very clear on that also....

Gen.2
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God's holy word tells us man is made up of only (2) items: 1.The dust of the ground. 2.The breath of God.

Now let's look at this, "breath of God".

Let’s read what Job had to say about it;

Job 9
[18] He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

Above Job is saying God will not kill him, by taking away his breath.

Job 27
[3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Here Job calls the breath within, “the spirit of God”!

Again..this is the ONLY spirit that is within man. And when man dies that same breath, or spirit as Job calls it, returns to God.

If you do not agree you do not have to reply. This lesson is for those seeking the truth, who may have thought different but was never presented with scriptures to confirm!

I know there are some that believe in the bible and understand that man does NOT have a spirit that floats away somewhere when he dies!

When man dies it is as though he sleeps. He knows nothing;

Eccl.9
[2] All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
[3] This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

So the event is Death! It happens to us ALL!

[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
[7] Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
[8] Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
[9] Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

This is NOT may claim, it is God's!!!!

.

Rach1370 · Nov 17, 2010

So hang on....I think you completely missed my point...and perhaps I missed yours. Lets clarify:
You say that Jesus is the only one to CURRENTLY have a new and perfect body....I agree....and have never said otherwise.
You say that man will only receive their perfect body at Jesus' second coming....I agree....and have never said otherwise.
I have never claimed that those people who died and were miraculously brought back were made perfect while dead and then were once again stuff back into a non perfect body. My point here was that our God is amazing and all powerful and as these miracles were specifically to give glory to Jesus we can't rightly say what did or did not happen to these people when they were 'dead'.

As for the other issue, that of 'spirit', I can't quite make out what you're saying. It seems to me that you are saying both that our spirit is the breath of God and returns to Him when we die, and also that a persons spirit sleeps and is therefore unaware until Jesus' second coming. To me both these claims made simultaneously do not make sense. And also, it seems to me that when you claim that our spirit is the breath given by God and returns to God at our death, which means our spirit 'ceases' to exist. This also does not follow other Biblical truths. I believe when the bible says that God formed us from the dust of the earth and breathed life into us it means just that; His breath has given us life, but each of us have a spirit (or soul).
Let me see if I can clarify my position on 1: people having spirits and 2: where they go upon death.

As I mentioned before, which you seemingly chose to ignore, Jesus had a spirit.
" [50] And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
(Matthew 27:50 ESV)"
Jesus is not only our saviour and God, he is the example of what man should be, what we could have been had humanity not fallen. Below is some commentary on this passage, which I believe shows why the perfect man is an inspiration to us in so many ways.
"Even in death, Jesus maintains authoritative control over his destiny (cf. John 10:17–18; Heb. 7:16). “His spirit” means his human spirit. While Jesus' body remained on the cross and was then put in the tomb, his spirit went into the presence of God his Father (cf. Luke 23:43, 46; also Eccles. 12:7) and in this way he became the pattern for believers who would die after him (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; Heb. 12:23)."

"[43] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
(Luke 23:43 ESV)"
Having previously seen that Jesus has a spirit and that when His earthly body died it returned to God, here we see that Jesus was reassuring the thief that he would be with Jesus in paradise, that very day. More commentary:

"Paradise is another name for heaven, the dwelling place of God and the eternal home of the righteous (cf. 2 Cor. 12:3; Rev. 2:7)."

So we can see that Jesus has a spirit, as do we, and once we die we do not sleep, we go to be immediately with God.

You say that this cannot be, since we do not become perfect until Jesus returns and we receive our perfect bodies, but note the above "the dwelling place of God and the eternal home of the righteous".

So I'm going to go over what it means to be righteous. We are told in Ecc 7:20 "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
And yet it is possible for a human to be righteous...Noah was a 'righteous man', and we see many verses that talk of the 'righteous'. So how do we attain this righteousness?

[The Righteousness of God Through Faith]
[21] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:21-26 ESV)

So by having faith in our Lord Jesus Christ we receive his wonderful grace. This gives us a new spirit of righteousness...

[19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [20] Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 5:19-21 ESV)

So my point is this, Jesus died so that we may be righteous in God's eyes. How then could our spirits not be good enough to be in God's presence when we are covered by Christs' blood? As Romans 3:25 says above...Jesus has propitiated for us, made us righteous in God's eyes. When we add this to the above Biblical points: we have a spirit, that goes to be with God upon death, and that indeed our spirits are justified before God....well then, the conclusion is obvious.

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 18, 2010

Rach said:
"So hang on....I think you completely missed my point...and perhaps I missed yours. Lets clarify:
You say that Jesus is the only one to CURRENTLY have a new and perfect body....I agree....and have never said otherwise.
You say that man will only receive their perfect body at Jesus' second coming....I agree....and have never said otherwise.
I have never claimed that those people who died and were miraculously brought back were made perfect while dead and then were once again stuff back into a non perfect body. My point here was that our God is amazing and all powerful and as these miracles were specifically to give glory to Jesus..."

I totally agree. Amen!! Spirits is another thread!

.

Rach1370 · Nov 20, 2010

Ummm, I'm not so sure it is another thread. The purpose of this one is to determine whether or not a Christian is with Jesus as soon as they die.
You say no, for several reasons that I disagree with.
I say yes, and part of my reasoning is that we have spirits. You cannot take half of my post and say "you agree with me, see I was right", because that is not true and you divert from my point and ulimately your own thread.

I'll break it down for you again.

We have spirits (as biblically proven above)
When we die, as we all do, said spirits go somewhere...we do not cease to exist...in this Jesus (as He is in everything) is our wonderful 'first fruits'. He shows us the pattern of what will happen.
Jesus has His perfect body NOW, while those who die will only receive thiers upon Christ's second coming.
During that time our spirits are somewhere, and as shown above (again biblically in Pauls teachings) we see that that somewhere is heaven!

So, I'm quite happy for you to agree with me, but my whole post is pointing towards my ultimate conclusion, which I suspect you don't agree with. So hows about you reply to the rest of my post, in which the pertinent points are laid out. Because your post is about spirits, one way or the other!

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 20, 2010

Rach said:
When we die, as we all do, said spirits go somewhere

As far as the spirit that God put into man....the scriptures are very clear on that....

Gen.2
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ALL of man became a soul. God's holy word tells us man is made up of only (2) items: 1.The dust of the ground. 2.The breath of God.

Again.....at what point does God word say that man consists of MORE than these (2) substances?

Now let's look at this, "breath of God".

Let’s read what Job had to say about it;

Job 9
[18] He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

Above Job is saying God will not kill him, by taking away his breath.

Job 27
[3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Here Job calls the breath within, “the spirit of God”!

Again..this is the ONLY spirit that is within man. And when man dies that same breath, or spirit as Job calls it, returns to God.

When Jesus died that SAME breath is what left His body and returned to God!

Man is only made up of (2) things. And once one of them is missing the soul, ALL of man, dies!

You do not have to believe it or accept it!

God's holy word inspired Job to call the breath of the Lord spirit!
God's holy word said man consists of (2) items: dust and that same spirit; the breath of God!
God's holy word says that man, which consists of dust and breath, became a soul, not that a soul was put into man!

This is what I believe based upon the word of God.

If you choose to belive otherwise that is fine!
If you choose to belive that something other than what God put into man, His breath, goes back to heaven then roll with it!

But now you have to make what you believe fit EVERYTHING else that is in God's word! And it has to make sense!

Let's look at something for a moment. Let's review a few of your statements;

"When we die, as we all do, said spirits go somewhere...we do not cease to exist...."
"During that time our spirits are somewhere, and as shown above (again biblically in Pauls teachings) we see that that somewhere is heaven!"

Now let's read what Jesus said and try to make it 'fit' your beliefs;

John 3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Now we know that flesh and blood cannot occupy heaven, only spirit beings. While Jesus was in heaven He was spirit. And He said that no man has gone to heaven except the one that came down from heaven!

Now you say that our spirits go to heaven when we die!

Question #1: Just how does that fit compared with what Jesus told us? If Jesus said He was the only one to come down from heaven where did the "spirits" come from that, according to you, God put into man?

Next you said, "When we die, as we all do, said spirits go somewhere...", "...and as shown above (again biblically in Pauls teachings) we see that that somewhere is heaven!"

Question #2: Do you really mean ALL spirits go to heaven when they die or just certain spirits?

Because if ALL spirits go to heaven when they die you are saying that EVERY person that has ever died has a spirit in heaven, enjoying ALL that heaven has to offer......BUT, at some point will be judged not worthy and THEN be cast into the lake of fire?

Or do you mean that only 'some' spirits go to 'heaven' while others go to 'hell' upon death? And if this IS what you are saying then that means man's 'spirit' is judged as soon as he dies! And if this is true, why is there ANY mention of a White Throne judgement that is to take place? Please explain!

I'll stop here! That should keep you busy for awhile.......

.

Rach1370 · Nov 20, 2010

Ok, let me ask you....when the Bible so clearly speaks of 'spirit' in so many cases, why, at creation, does it only say that God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"? This implies many things, but no what your are trying to make it say. By giving us His 'breath of life" God was imparting to man (made in His image) life; physical, mental and spiritual life. But you cannot say that it was only spirit, and upon death will return back to God. In one sense, yes, everything on earth belongs to God, as He is sovereign, but what you are implying just can't follow. Every man has life, but what of unbelievers when they die? If all 'life' is only God's spirit, which will return back to Him at death, then why have hell? Unrepentant people upon death will experiance eternal regret and torment...Jesus Himself talked of hell more than anyone else in the Bible. It is real, and the spirits of unsaved people will go there.
You quote Job, but all verses point more to that meaning "the essence of life", rather than a persons unique spirit, which will endure after death, either in heaven or hell. You do admit to a person enduring past death (even if you only believe that we sleep and receive that perfect body at Jesus return)....there will have to be something of US left to put on that new perfect body.

You say three thing which I need to respond to:
"God's holy word inspired Job to call the breath of the Lord spirit!"- You cannot pull this out here and then dismiss what the Holy Spirit inspired in Paul, and all the New Testament writers, that refer to our renewed spirit, that our spirits endure after death, and that our spirits will indeed by with Jesus upon death.

"God's holy word said man consists of (2) items: dust and that same spirit; the breath of God!" - Can you give me a direct verse in which it says this implicitly? Only 2? And why must this necessarily mean that once God breathed life into us, a clay body, that we therefore didn't have our own spirit? We are after all able to make our own choices, which in turn shape us all differently. We are unique, there is definately that within us that no other living thing on earth has....what is it other than spirit, soul? And while we own life, every breath to God, it does not mean that when we cease to breath, that that breath is once again absorbed by God (which is hwhat your explination sounds like). Something of US, of who we are remains after death.

"God's holy word says that man, which consists of dust and breath, became a soul, not that a soul was put into man!" - See this kinda helps my point. C.S. Lewis said something once...I can't remember how it went exactly, but something like this..."We don't have a spirit....we ARE a spirit, and have a body." Something endures after death, and as we know that our corruptable bodies go into the ground and decay, it remains that our spirit, our true selves, remain.

You then go on to quote John 3:13, as proof that no one goes to heaven when they die. Firstly, this is out of context of the rest of the passage. Secondly, this verse is intended to confirm Jesus' revelation of the Father as true, complete, first hand and unique. And quite frankly, here you are once again ignoring the fact that I have already address (biblically) the fact that once we die we ARE with Jesus. So I'm at a loss at what you're trying to do here, but I'm very much afraid you are trying to say that the bible contradicts itself. If you truly want to address this issue, please go back and actually look at my points and the verses I've shown that do indeed point to us going to heaven when we die.

You then say:
"Now we know that flesh and blood cannot occupy heaven, only spirit beings. While Jesus was in heaven He was spirit. And He said that no man has gone to heaven except the one that came down from heaven!" - This is ridiculous and only helps prove my point of what the passage is really talking about. So if only spirits can be in heaven, and yet your so big on Jesus being the first to get His new body....where is He now?? Well, He's in heaven, where He ascended as the disciples watched....in His new body...which has flesh and blood. And I just have to say that once again you are stating rules of what God can and can't do....God can do everything, and it is certainly not our place to question or doubt.
So, I think that answered your question 1, although I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say "where did the "spirits" come from that, according to you, God put into man?". I'm starting to think that you think spirit just means 'physical animation', rather than 'who we are, what we think, feel and do". God gave us life, and part of having life is being aware and all the eomtions that come with that...pride, empathy, love, forgiveness, hate, jealousy, joy...all things that shape us, help us grow or become dark. My point is that our spirit is who we are, our personalities...that which becomes saved by grace or damned by pride.

As for question 2...you're stretching abit, as I have made clear that only saved people will be saved. In fact you're helping to make one of my points here. We have spirits...no, lets say we ARE spirits, just residing in earthly bodies. When we die we either go to heaven or hell...based on our saved/unsaved status. If 'spirit' is just God's breath and returns to Him, as you would posit, then aren't YOU infact saying that everyone, not matter their saved/unsaved status, goes to be with God??

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 20, 2010

Rach said:
As for question 2...you're stretching abit, as I have made clear that only saved people will be saved. In fact you're helping to make one of my points here. We have spirits...no, lets say we ARE spirits, just residing in earthly bodies. When we die we either go to heaven or hell...based on our saved/unsaved status. If 'spirit' is just God's breath and returns to Him, as you would posit, then aren't YOU infact saying that everyone, not matter their saved/unsaved status, goes to be with God??

Once again....you said a lot but did not answer the questions. The questions I am asking are all based on your assumptions!

I'll get back to question 1 after understanding your reasoning behind question 2!

First you said ALL spirits that die go to heaven,

"When we die, as we all do, said spirits go somewhere...we do not cease to exist...."
"During that time our spirits are somewhere, and as shown above (again biblically in Pauls teachings) we see that that somewhere is heaven!"

But now you have adjusted your answer AFTER I presented the flaws in your claim. For IF your first claim were correct, as I stated, that would mean, "... EVERY person that has ever died has a spirit in heaven, enjoying ALL that heaven has to offer......BUT, at some point will be judged not worthy and THEN be cast into the lake of fire."

So now you have adjusted your first claim to the following;

"...only saved people will be saved...", "...When we die we either go to heaven or hell...based on our saved/unsaved status..."

Now assuming you are correct, whatever you say MUST go hand in hand with the word of God!

So now that you say the saved go to heaven when they die and the unsaved to hell, I must ask you;

If a man's 'spirit' is placed either in heaven or hell as soon as they die, which is your unadjusted claim for now, at what point does the White Throne judgement, spoken of in Rev. take place?

Rev.20
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The above tells the readers two things; there will be those that WILL be cast into the lake of fire because their names were NOT found written in God's book of life, AND there will be those who will NOT be cast into the lake of fire because their names WERE found written in God's book of life!

So are you now saying each time a person dies this white throne judgement takes place and their spirits are at that time judged and sent to their perspective places?

After all, your newly adjusted claim is, "...When we die we either go to heaven or hell...based on our saved/unsaved status..."

Again...please explain to the readers!

I await your NEXT adjusted answer!

.

Rach1370 · Nov 21, 2010

I knew a guy like you once....he just loved to take what you had said and twist it to make you look wrong or stupid. Real nice......
I especially love that even though I have said many times that only the saved go to heaven, you took one time I didn't actually state it....as I thought it was assumed from my previous stating of it, and you grab it and try to make me look stupid....shame on you.
You accuse me of not answering your questions and then stoop to these levels to divert from the fact that you yourself do not answer anyone elses.

So let me recap.

We have a spirit...indeed how could Jesus' sacrifice give us a 'new, regenerated spirits' if we did not? I have answered your "breath of life" question, but you have not given any biblical response to my answer...please do.
When believers die, we go, in spirit, to be with Jesus - we know this because this is what Jesus told the thief begging for forgiveness on the cross...Jesus does not lie, so when He said "today you will be with me in paradise", we know he meant today....and as shown above Paradise means heaven...direct commune with God. Again, I have addressed all this above, with bible verses, but you haven't answered....please do.
Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit and writing to give believers hope, tells us that should/when he dies he will be with his Lord immediately.
Revelations shows us believers in heaven before Jesus' final second coming....simple common sense tells us this can't be so unless believers are IN heaven. But of course I have already covered all this, you refuse to answer it....please do.
Your theory of our spirits only being God's 'breath' that gave us life is not biblically founded. God gave us life with His breath, and with life we have spirits....but of course I've been over this in greater detail...you haven't answered...please do.

You don't answer any pertinent questions, you pick and choose statements from those of us who try and enter dialogue with you, and twist and misdirect. I have never and will never claim that sinners get into heaven...only those covered by the blood of Jesus will. The fact that you chose to ignore the spirit of my post, where I clearly said this, and then go on and accuse me of this false doctrine....well it tells me that discussing this topic with you is futile. It saddens me that you are aware of the "readers" of this post, and don't care of any misinformation you may give them. Truly, the only reason I reply to you is for them. If those of us who follow Jesus and what the Bible really says, the true letter of it, don't step up, stand up for the truth, then lies spread like gangrene.
I am truly sorry you simply cannot be open to learning, or even discussing. I find it is one of God's most important lessons for us, to really be open to learning our sins, repenting and loving and moving forward.

Eccl.12:13 · Nov 21, 2010

Rach said:
So let me recap.
When believers die, we go, in spirit, to be with Jesus - we know this because this is what Jesus told the thief begging for forgiveness on the cross...Jesus does not lie, so when He said "today you will be with me in paradise", we know he meant today....

Really?

And what of the conversation Jesus had with Mary AFTER being in the grave for 3 days AND 3 nights? Let's read it....

John 20
[14] And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
[15] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
[16] Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now this is 3 days and 3 nights AFTER Jesus death and He tells her, "...for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

Now according to YOUR claim both Jesus AND the thief went to heaven on the day that He died.

Please explain!

And concerning the rest of your post. I took my time and read ALL of it. And you have yet to answer the question about the White Throne judgement mentioned in Rev.20!

You did make the following statement;

Unrepentant people upon death will experiance eternal regret and torment...Jesus Himself talked of hell more than anyone else in the Bible. It is real, and the spirits of unsaved people will go there.

But didn't answer the question. If, as you say, believers spirits go to heaven, what about the spirits of those saints, that according to you are in an 'unsaved' status?

Where do their spirits go until the White Throne judgement happens? Are they held in limbo until the sea gives up their dead and the books open and read?

Please explain!

It is not my intent to make anyone look stupid. I am only doing as instructed by the word of God!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

"... make full proof of thy ministry."

I have done, through scriptures what Gods word says to do:

I have presented scriptures that states man is made up of (2) substances; The Dust of the earth. And the breath of God that brings that dust life!

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen.2:7

That same scripture mentioned above says that the TWO substances became a soul. It does NOT say a soul was put into man.

If you claim that man is made up of something other than these (2), then search the scriptures and post what you find.

I have presented scripture that states the same breath that was breathed into man is called 'spirit'.

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 27:3

I did not make this up! God's holy spirit inspired Job to say this, not me!

Taking what the God's word says above and applying to other scriptures makes sense. Let's take the following verses for example;

"And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost."
"And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God."
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost"
"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things"
"And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

Now from Jesus own mouth He tells us, "...for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."! So we know a ghost didn't go up to heaven on the day He died. So just what ghost/spirit did He give up?

Using God's holy word, it was His breath! The same breath that was used to bring life, if taken away, brings death! And what is His breath called? Spirit!

This works! This makes sense!

So if you think I am trying to belittle, it is not me you have a problem with....it is with the word of God!

.

.

Anastacia · Nov 21, 2010

Eccl.12:13,

Some of us have spent so much time and care trying to explain to you the life of the spirit. I think you have been given more than enough time with this. You ignore many of the scriptures given to you, so you should just be ignored about this now. I feel for those whom you are throwing into confusion...the seeker of God, and the baby Christians who might not know the scriptures well.

You believe and try to teach here that the spirit ceases to exist after the body dies.....yet it has been explained to you from Matthew 10:28 that man can kill someone's body---but NOT the soul!
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy, both soul and body in hell!

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:Mark 9:2-6

Yet you claim Jesus was just giving Peter, James and John an illusion!

Jesus said "God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" (See Mark 12:24-27)

Yet you say that they ARE dead! You go against the very words of Christ.

Jesus say in John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Yet you say this life stops at the death of the body, then starts up again at the resurrection. But Jesus says "welling up to eternal life"!

Jesus says in John 5:24-25 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

We have "crossed over from death to life," yet you say we die spiritually.

Jesus say in John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Jesus says to work for food that ENDURES TO eternal life. We don't work for food that endures to death in the ground then later an eternal life.

Jesus says in John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Jesus say we "remain" in him. How can you deny that when our body dies that we will not STILL remain in him spiritually?

Jesus says in John 12:26 "Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."

This is in the passage where Jesus predicts his death. Jesus is going back to the Father!

John 14:1-6. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Again, Jesus is talking about going back to heaven to his Father.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

(This scripture is in the passages where Jesus speaks to his disciples, before Jesus is arrested and crucified. And where is Jesus going? Heaven!)

I accept the reality of heaven by faith, on the authority of Jesus Christ who told us… “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going. I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:1,2,3,4, 6)

Jesus says that he is going to prepare a place for them and that he will come back and take them to be with him. We see in Acts that Jesus came for Stephen.) See Acts 7:55 But Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out , "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

We see that Jesus came back for Stephen. And we see in 2 Timothy 4:18 that Paul is confident that Jesus will come back to get him and bring him safely to his heavenly kingdom. See the following..

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 14:16-18 (King James Version)

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

(This scripture Jesus says that he shall give another Comforter that may abide with them for ever, note the word for ever.)

Philippians 1:22-24 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And where do you get that spirit die?!

Messianic Jews, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist, Christadelphians, etc.... they say we cease to exist and therefore aren't conscience of anything after the death of the body. So then explain how Paul could wonder if he was in the body or OUT OF THE BODY???

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

I really do think we have given you more than enough time and scriptures on this. You ignore the scriptures....now you really should be ignored.

Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”

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