Hebrews 10:26-31

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Tong2020

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Yes, that person is saved the moment they exhibit faith in Christ in response to God's calling.
Will that person continue in that faith to the very end and so be saved when Jesus comes back? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see. The exhortation of the scriptures is for the believer to make his calling and election sure. IOW, make sure of it. And the Bible says you do that by doing works of righteousness. If you can show by your actions that you have the righteousness of God through faith in Christ you can be assured that you have in fact been called and elected to salvation. That's not a works gospel, folks. That's what the Bible says.
“I’d like to know, do you believe or agree that when God had chosen to save a person, that person will be saved? That God will accomplish His will and saved them who He had chosen to save?”

When I said “...chosen to save”, what I mean there in “save” is to have one be with him for eternity. And in the other question likewise, “save” there have the same sense.

So, what you say there seems to not be in this sense. Perhaps you would like to do that again, if that is the case.

Anyway, let me make some comments on what you said there.

<<<Yes, that person is saved the moment they exhibit faith in Christ in response to God's calling.>>>

The moment of having faith (true faith) in Christ by one in response to God’s calling is an evidence of God’s saving work on the person. He believes because God worked that out.

<<<Will that person continue in that faith to the very end and so be saved when Jesus comes back? I don't know.>>>

Yes he will. God will work that out as well.

<<<The exhortation of the scriptures is for the believer to make his calling and election sure. IOW, make sure of it.>>>

Yes. And that as well is another exhortation. It is not that he can make sure of it by that, but that he gets to have a sense that he is elected by God unto salvation. That is part of God’s working out His salvation of the person. As much as that is an exhortation, it is for the person’s benefit and good, the strengthening of his faith. The Christian who does that is strengthened in faith.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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Paul says in Philippians that trying to do works or keep commandments or any type of good behavior to try to be accepted by God, is "dung".

So, any type of Christianity that is based on "what i do, is how i keep myself saved" is "dung".

Its the same principle.
Its a person who is trying by self effort to BE SAVED or STAY SAVED.
In both cases, Paul teaches that this is "dung"...... Thats its actual value.
Having faith is not a boast of the flesh.....

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith." Romans 3:27

See, there is no boast in having faith as you are claiming. Faith is directly opposed to and is not included in the boast of doing something to earn justification. But you are saying works and having faith are the same thing. And so you wrongly say you do not have to have faith to justified.
 

Tong2020

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I wasn't saying you were arguing, lol. I expected you to argue that Romans 11:21-22 is not about losing salvation because of one's unbelief.
By expecting that, it seems to me you’d for us to discuss that. Just say so. Discussing God’s words is ever a welcome delight for me.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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Is it that if we keep our faith, then we keep ourselves saved?
The word must remain in you for you to remain in Christ.

1 John 2:24-26
24 ...see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

But you are saying, "if what you heard from the beginning doesn't remain in you, you will still remain in the Son and in the Father".
 
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Ferris Bueller

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By expecting that, it seems to me you’d for us to discuss that. Just say so. Discussing God’s words is ever a welcome delight for me.

Tong
R1493
Not necessary. The point of it was to show you that believers can lose faith. True believers can depart from the faith. The Galatians did. The Corinthians did. And the Hebrews were being tempted to.
 

Tong2020

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At this point I don't think I would willingly choose to walk away from the forgiveness I have in Christ. It's too valuable to me. Is there a difficult trial, or deception out there in the future that could cause me to walk away from God and go back to my sins? Maybe. But if I stay strong in faith through continued fellowship with God I will by God's grace be prepared to resist the temptation to walk away and go back to unbelief and my old life of sin.
So, what you are saying in effect is that walking away from and rejecting Christ is a possibility to you, that is, it is possible to happen to you.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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Such intentional sin is one that is not unbelief nor one that is out of unbelief. Examples of intentional sin would be dishonesty, selfishness, breaking a promise or an oath, pride, are some of many.
Whether or not a sin is intentional vs. unintentional is determined by WHY you do it.

And intentional sin is unbelief, and the worse kind of unbelief. It's a decision to reject Christ. It's choosing to not care about the sacrifice of Christ even though you're fully aware that the sacrifice of Christ is real and is truth. But you reject it anyway and persist in going your own way simply because you want to. The deceptive part of that being you may think you are safe to do that because you think you will stay in God's graces because salvation is not by works. Salvation is by faith. But intentionally and deliberately sinning in the absence of the compelling forces of ignorance or weakness is a demonstration of the lack of that faith.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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So, what you are saying in effect is that walking away from and rejecting Christ is a possibility to you.

Tong
R1494
I think I am free to do that. But I don't want to. That doesn't mean I'll always want to, but at this point I think I'll want to stay in Christ to the very end. I'm just adopting the humble attitude Paul said we should have....

...they (Israel, the natural branches) were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Romans 11:20-22


Not to mix metaphors, but I think the word of God goes deep enough in me that it will not be easily uprooted, but I'm not going to boast that it can never be rejected by the 'soil' of my heart. There may be a trial or a deception lurking out there that will reveal a weakness of faith in me that I did not know I have. I did not used to think like this. But life has taught me different. And it's in line with proper Biblical thinking.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I quoted the NKJV which renders 1 John 3:9 different from what you quoted. That is what I was asking of you as to what you can say about that.

Tong
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Yes, most translations help out our understanding of 1 John 3:9 by qualifying 'sinning' as the 'practice' of sinning. But even without that helpful addition if you read the whole letter you can see that the 'sinning' in 1 John 3:9 that John says born again people don't commit can't be the sinning he just got through saying in 1 John 1:8-10 that we do.

So the question is, what's the difference between the sinning we do (1 John 1:8-10) and the sinning we don't do (1 John 3:9) and which unbelievers do (1 John 3:10)? Examine that question and the matter becomes clear. I think the various translators who added understanding to this matter in their Bibles got it right. It's the difference between living in sin as a matter of lifestyle, and not living in sin as a matter of lifestyle (and this is consistent with what Paul says). The righteous person stumbles into sin. The unrighteous person lives in it as a matter of lifestyle. It's his nature. It's not the nature of the born again person.
 

justbyfaith

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es, most translations help out our understanding of 1 John 3:9 by qualifying 'sinning' as the 'practice' of sinning. But even without that helpful addition if you read the whole letter you can see that the 'sinning' in 1 John 3:9 that John says born again people don't commit can't be the sinning he just got through saying in 1 John 1:8-10 that we do.

I would contend that 1 John 1:8 is talking about present and future indwelling sin and that 1 John 1:10 is talking about past committed sins; while 1 John 3:5-9 is talking about present and future committed sins (that they will not be committed by the born again believer).

Again, in 1 John 1:8, it is speaking about the element of indwelling sin; which, I believe, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Thus, 1 John 3:5-9 does not contradict 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:5-9 also does not only speak of sin as a lifestyle but of the committing of sins.

As it is written,

Jhn 8:31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jhn 8:33, They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35, And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 

Grailhunter

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Chapter 11 in Hebrews address the topic of faith, particularly the faith of certain individuals in the Old Testament.
Why do you think the author of Hebrews does that?
Concepts of faith do not always line up with scriptures as we would expect....I know thin ice here.
Look this up for yourself.
The word faith occurs twice in the Old Testament....
The word faithful occurs around 30 times in the Old Testament.
Alternatively the words faith and faithful appear nearly 350 times in the New Testament, which is a group of texts that are less than a third of the size of the Old Testament.
Is that shocking? There is a reason for that. You need to find out why that is.
And you need to find out why the author of Hebrews devotes a whole chapter to discussing the faith of certain individuals in the Old Testament. To the extent that he arranges it almost like a list. (Not that he does not mention faith in the New Testament.)
 

Tong2020

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Who? The publican in the parable of Luke 18:9-14? I think not.

For the publican was at the altar, seeking the Lord.
Have you in read my post well enough? I wonder how you did not see that I was talking about Paul.

I have not sinned willfully since receiving the second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15) of entire sanctification (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv)).

I would also say that 1 John 3:9 is hyperbole; it is exaggeration to make the point that if a man is truly born again, his life is going to change. Even as it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

So you sinned willfully after conversion but is entirely sanctified and since then had not willfully sinned. Good for you then.

The law is written in the heart and mind of New Covenant believers; simply in that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5) and that this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within them (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

There is no law that will go against our behaviour if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).
You said elsewhere that “the law is not done away with because in the New Covenant, the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of New Covenant believers.” So you take reference to the laws under the old covenant. So my question, what laws were written in your mind and heart? You seem to say that because the two commandments of loving God and neighbor sums up all the old covenant commandments, it means then that all those are effectively written in your mind and heart. And as such you conclude that the old covenant laws were not done away with when the old was replaced with the new. I could not agree with your take on that. I’d go with what scripture said that the old covenant, and that would necessarily include all that it contains and goes with, were replaced by a new covenant.

Now, if they were not done away with and were passed over to the new covenant, so that the law remains the same in the new as were in the old covenant, what would you say is the purpose of the law?

It should be clear that the Old Testament is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16).
That is well noted sir. No one here seems to dispute that.

But it must be realized, which is my point in that part of my post you quoted, that the old covenant, which of necessity inclusive of all that it contains, was replaced by the new covenant.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Not necessary. The point of it was to show you that believers can lose faith. True believers can depart from the faith. The Galatians did. The Corinthians did. And the Hebrews were being tempted to.
Well, if you thought it will, it did not.

You point to the Galatians and Corinthians as being genuine believers and lost their faith. And that is coming from a conclusion or take that they were genuine believers. How did you know they were genuine believers?

Tong
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Tong2020

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I think I am free to do that. But I don't want to. That doesn't mean I'll always want to, but at this point I think I'll want to stay in Christ to the very end. I'm just adopting the humble attitude Paul said we should have....
Of course you are free. Only you can tell what is possible to you or not. Perhaps you don’t want to but still in your heart you believe there’s that possibility.

That isn’t humility sir. It’s your heart.

...they (Israel, the natural branches) were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Romans 11:20-22
Not to mix metaphors, but I think the word of God goes deep enough in me that it will not be easily uprooted, but I'm not going to boast that it can never be rejected by the 'soil' of my heart. There may be a trial or a deception lurking out there that will reveal a weakness of faith in me that I did not know I have. I did not used to think like this. But life has taught me different. And it's in line with proper Biblical thinking.
That’s the case when a person depend on himself about that and looks at his weakness. But if the Christian depend on God about that and looks at the strength of the Savior, that would not be the case.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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That’s the case when a person depend on himself about that and looks at his weakness.
I think everyone knows this. The point we were addressing, and agree on, is that Christians can stop believing if they want. That's pretty clear in scripture. It even gives us examples of that happening.
 

Ferris Bueller

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This, "22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."
Could you only discover what you are reading!
This is consolation and assurance; not warning and condition!
You see in this threat and damnation; while with Paul's arguments, God, offers kindness and salvation.
Yes, I understand how it is necessary to turn his warning into the surety that you won't stop believing in order to strip it of the possibility that it's saying true believers who stand by faith can stop continuing in the kindness of God and be cutoff. And I also see how it is necessary to make being cutoff mean something other than losing salvation to achieve the same goal.
 

Tong2020

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Yes, most translations help out our understanding of 1 John 3:9 by qualifying 'sinning' as the 'practice' of sinning. But even without that helpful addition if you read the whole letter you can see that the 'sinning' in 1 John 3:9 that John says born again people don't commit can't be the sinning he just got through saying in 1 John 1:8-10 that we do.

So the question is, what's the difference between the sinning we do (1 John 1:8-10) and the sinning we don't do (1 John 3:9) and which unbelievers do (1 John 3:10)? Examine that question and the matter becomes clear. I think the various translators who added understanding to this matter in their Bibles got it right. It's the difference between living in sin as a matter of lifestyle, and not living in sin as a matter of lifestyle (and this is consistent with what Paul says). The righteous person stumbles into sin. The unrighteous person lives in it as a matter of lifestyle. It's his nature. It's not the nature of the born again person.
Helpful when it jives with what one say and not helpful when it does not. So, a translation that is nearest to the original text and lesser translator thoughts is the better translation of a passage. The translator must allow the words of God to speak to the reader devoid of what he thinks.

What 1 John 1:8 speaks about is different from what 1 John 3:9 speaks about. The former speaks about the one who is not born of God. The latter speaks about the one who is born of God. But I will not go there now as I think if it will open up another topic. We can do that perhaps as a separate thread.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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gnosticism.
Bingo!

There is no boast in having faith...
Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Faith is defined as trusting God. Trusting God is what you do IN CONTRAST to work. They are in opposition of each other. Not the same thing.
Romans 4:5
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So we can easily see from these that having faith is not the same as doing works as @Behold is insisting.
 

Tong2020

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I think everyone knows this. The point we were addressing, and agree on, is that Christians can stop believing if they want. That's pretty clear in scripture. It even gives us examples of that happening.
I don’t agree that Christians (I meant genuine ) can stop believing. Wanting that is not of those born of God. That’s what is pretty clear in scriptures.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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I don’t agree that Christians (I meant genuine ) can stop believing. Wanting that is not of those born of God. That’s what is pretty clear in scriptures.

Tong
R1499
The Galatians stopped believing in Christ, solely, for justification. They received another gospel. The Corinthians also received another gospel. One that did not have a risen savior. And as we're discussing here, the Hebrew church was being tempted to go back to temple worship. So, yes, genuine Christians can in fact stop believing. These example are right in our Bibles.
 
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