Brakelite
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We'll never stop condemning it and it doesn't excuse the actions of Protestants either. No hypocrisy involved at all. The difference today is that the Catholic Church still supports it. Ask theefsith.
Who founded your church?
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Illuminator
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But again, you make false generalities and don't name any Tradition! Not a single Sacred Tradition contradicts scripture, and you can't name one that does, just stupid insults. The authority of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition, should that be tossed over your erroneous opinions? You contradict yourself with a false definition of Tradition, making discussion on the matter impossible.
Illuminator
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Q: In Matthew 15:1-9 (the "you make void the word of God by your tradition" passage), didn't Jesus indicate that any tradition which contradicts Scripture is false, meaning that we must test traditions by Scripture, meaning that tradition is inferior to Scripture?
A: It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.
This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."
So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.
INFO: The sources of theology
A: It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.
This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."
So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.
INFO: The sources of theology
Marymog
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Not counting the baptism passages I already quoted there are 2 more passages, which are a 2,000 year teaching, that destroys your 500 year traditional teaching of the Protestant men you follow: faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.....by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Thanks for your time.
I suspect the heresies varied.
In the case of Servtus; According to Servetus, God is one single person. He contended that the persons of the Trinity are actually “forms” in which God has chosen to manifest Himself. According to Servetus, Christ was made a man by God, and His human nature prevents Him from being God. Servetus concluded God is eternal, but Jesus Christ is not. In his denial of the Trinity, Servetus was seen as a heretic by Catholics and Protestants alike.
The Calvinists and the Catholics both wanted him dead, but the Calvinists got to him first.
I don't condone it either way of course.
Nice dodge, but it's obvious that the doctrine that says the CC has Christ's authority gives them carte blanche in thier actions.
Of course I can name several that contradict scripture. The Bible contradicts all these Catholic doctrines:
It condemns clerical dress. Matt. 23:4-5 says, "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments."
2. It teaches against the adoration of Mary. Luke 11:27-28 says, "And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!' But He said, 'More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'"
3. It shows that all Christians are priests. 1 Pet. 2:5,9 says, "...You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..."
4. It condemns the observance of special days. Gal. 4:9-11 says, "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain."
5. It teaches that all Christians are saints. 1 Cor. 1:2 says, "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..."
6. It teaches that baptism is immersion instead of pouring. Rom. 6:4 says; "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Col. 2:12 says, "Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
7. It forbids us to address religious leaders as "father." Matt. 23:9 says, "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."
8. It opposes unmarried bishops. 1 Tim. 3:2-5 says, "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)..."
9. It addresses only God Himself as the "Holy Father." John 17:11 says, "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are."
10. It shows that the great apostasy would forbid marriage. 1 Tim. 4:1-3 says, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."
So, no answers to the scripture I posted?
And James was speaking of being justified before man, not God.
BreadOfLife
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BreadOfLife
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The Church's God-given Authority is not about "carte blanche".
It's about Jesus's guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
Tell me - which part of "WHATEVER" do you not understand?
Matt 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Peter's own words in 1 Peter 2:4-7. He writes, "As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.' So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.'"
If Peter called Jesus the cornerstone and Paul called Jesus the One who grows the church, then the most accurate understanding of the rock upon whom the church is built is Jesus Christ.
By his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40), Peter opened the door of the kingdom for the first time. The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.
Jesus taught that the apostles had a special task on earth. Their words of authority, as recorded in the New Testament epistles, reflect God’s will for the church. When Paul declared an anathema on those who pervert the gospel, then we know that anathema was already declared in heaven (see Galatians 1:8–9).
Your problem is thinking that the Catholic Church is "The Church" when in fact, the Catholic Church often perverted Christ's teaching, voiding this promise. The promise is only for true believers, not for members of a certain sect within Christianity.
BreadOfLife
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NONE of these verse makes the claim that salvation is by faith ALONE – especially as YOU understand “faith”. Faith s NOT simply “belief” – but cooperation with God’s grace.
Verses that speak to “belief” in Christ must be taken in CONTEXT with the other verses that seek to describe what this “belief” is.
For example – Rom. 0:13 states: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
HOWEVER, Jesus flatly states in Matt. 7:21: “NOT everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven.
Notice the difference??
This is precisely the point that Jesus was making in the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46). It’s also the point that James was making in James 2:14-26 and Paul in 1 Cor. 14:1-13.
When you cherry-pick verses OUT of their proper context – you STRIP them of their true meaning.
THIS is how the Bible describes what faith and “believing” entail for followers of Christ:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
Anything less is NOT true faith . . .
BreadOfLife
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Are we NOT made in the image of God (Gen 1:20)?
Then, how do you reconcile Isaiah 51:1-2, which states that the people of Israel were hewn from the ROCK (Kepha) that is Abraham?
Answer: Because BOTH are correct.
MY Bible also tells me that the Heavenly Jerusalem is built on the 12 foundations - which are the APOSTLES. Does this mean that Jesus is NOT the Cornerstone?
Answer: NO.
Peter is CLEARLY the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18 - just as Abraham is the "Rock" of Isaiah 51:1.
We see in the letters of Paul, where ihe refers to Peter - NOT as "Peter" - but as "Cephas", which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "KEPHA" - which means "ROCK."
YOUR problem is that you simply do NOT understand Biblical language or context - which causes you to reject Christ's Church.
Brakelite
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Several reasons.
One, because those who proposed such ideas are still revered within the church, considered saints, and 'doctors' of theology.
Two, the innate principle of church/state union is foremost in Catholic theology and canon law. The 'two swords' principle has never been repudiated to my knowledge.
Third, and perhaps the most important, prophecy. The Papacy is described as a leopard like beast in Revelation 13. Leopards don't change, cannot change, their spots.
KJV Jeremiah 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
At the moment, sure, in western countries that church for the time being doesn't have the political clout to persecute, and sure, it appears that the church has made many positive steps towards reconciliation and had advanced the cause of religious toleration throughout the world. However, I tend toward thinking that what may be tolerated today, may well be condemned tomorrow.
Just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so.
So the text ( the rest of the bible) doesn’t give any other explanation of what it means to be given “the keys of the kingdom” other than “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
So if we accept that this is what it means to be given the keys of the kingdom, then we must accept that that was something given to all the disciples, not just Peter. Why? Because this privilege (or role or responsibility) to bind and loose is mentioned in other passages.
Just two chapters on, in Matt 18:18-20, Jesus is talking to all the disciples (as is made clear at the start of the chapter), and he says:
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.
Matthew 18:18-20
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Matthew 16:13-20
So what is the focus of the story? Who is Jesus. It starts with that question and it ends with that as well.
Peter is the key person who gets who Jesus is and he makes the grand confession of Jesus’ identity: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus honors Peter for this confession and says “You are Peter and on THIS rock, I will build my church”.
What is the “THIS” that is the foundation of the church that Jesus will build? Is it Peter? No. If it were Peter Jesus would have said, “on YOU I will build my church”.
BreadOfLife
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YOUR condemnation of those in Church history whose lives are seen as exemplary reminds me of all of the idiots today who go around destroying statues of the Founding Fathers because they or a family member once owned a slave. The founding Fathers didn't have statues erected to their memories BECAUSE of their earlier views on slavery - but because of what they did in forming this nation.
The SAME goes for the great saints of the past. Not EVERY thought in their heads was "noble" - and I challenge you to show me ONE person in authority within the Church who would praise ANY of them for believing that persecuting heretics was a "good" thing.
Use your HEAD the nest time you post ijnstead of making these asinine claims . . .
BreadOfLife
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Your claim above in RED shows your complete ignorance of Scripture.
Jesus's blessing of Peter in Matt. 16:18-19 actually MIRRORS that of God's blessing on Eliakim in the OT - who was given the Keys to the House of David:
Isaiah 22:20–22
In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the KEY TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Do you see the UNMISTAKABLE parallel??
Thhe "Keys" represent SUPREME AUTHORITY - similar to the power Joseph had over Pharoah's Kingdom (Gen. 41:40-44).
If you refuse to see the parallel - you are CLOSING your eyes to the Word of God.
Good luck with that . . .
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Ok, and this proves what? Only that the apostles spreading the gospel opens heaven, which I already said. God is the Supreme authority, over every other authority.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Your post is plagiarized from a church established in 1971, (La Vista Church of Christ), founded by Ken and Rita Hirshey, Wally and Nellie Bates, who are anti-church fundamentalists.
Jesus condemns vanity, not clerical dress, which is worn for liturgical purposes only.
Old Testament Vestments of the High Priest
Priestly vestments with accompanying prayers:
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