One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

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Timtofly

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I don't think you can prove it by scripture. And if there were two second comings, I think at least one apostle would have said so in the SAME teaching.
There are not two Second Comings.

If you went to the hospital for the birth of a baby, you would not arrive days later, and look back and claim you never came at the actual birth. You have to actually be there at the time of birth. Armageddon is not the final harvest. It is 42 months after the final harvest.
 

Randy Kluth

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I am glad you are into Bible doctrines.

I wish that all Christians were that intrigued.

Also, I am that teacher you are speaking of.

I have been teaching and debating pre-trib rapture with no help from peers anymore.

Fact is, the saints seen at the wedding in early Rev 19, were long gone to heaven prior to Jesus' return with them in latter chapter 19.

The saints return WITH Jesus, not to be rescued by Jesus.

This requires a pre-removal of them to satisfy scripture.

Here they are first found...

Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


And here is the wedding...

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


These saints saw no wrath from chapter 6 through 19, but were in heaven the entire time, because of this promise....

Rev 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You may well be a teacher, and a defender of Pretrib. But what if you held to a Pretrib belief that is in error? You would be a teacher, alright, but a teacher of error! I also held to Pretrib for awhile, until I began to actually take the word at face value in 2 Thes 2. There, Paul unmistakably teaches Postrib. The Church will *not* be taken before the revelation and destruction of Antichrist.

You use Noah being taken and Lot being taken as examples of a Rapture of the Church *before* the Wrath of God, and yet seem not to recognize that they were rescued *at the same time* as God's judgments! This is hardly a Pretrib proof text!

Nor is citing the Throne Room vision in Rev 4-5 a Pretrib proof text, since that is simply a vision of heaven with no mention at all of a Pretrib Rapture! When John is told he must preach "after these things," he was not referring to the Church Age. Rather, he was speaking of the things that would happen in his generation to the 7 churches that lived in Asia Minor *at that time.* Your "proof texts" are being taken out of context.

In this case, you're adding context. You say the Marriage Supper of the Lamb precedes the Wrath of God. And yet, it is viewed in Scriptures as simultaneous with Israel's national Salvation! Not only so, but there are more than a single portrait of Jesus' Coming in the book of Revelation, and none of them are said to be Pretribulational.

Just seeing a prolepsis of Christ's Coming Kingdom before another vision of the 2nd Coming does not mean it is Pretribulational or that there is more than one coming of Jesus! The visions in the book of Revelation are not chronologically arranged, but are more than one vision, even if the book climaxes with a grand presentation of the 2nd Coming. If you're a teacher, you need to promote Christ, and not your eschatological beliefs.

There is not a single place in the Scriptures that Pretribulationism is taught. That is why the Church never taught that position for 1800 years! It just wasn't there.

Darby concocted it after 1830 because he wanted to believe in the future Salvation of National Israel, and explain it as different from the Church Age. Well, each nation does have its own prophetic timeline for Salvation, especially Israel, because Salvation in nations is progressive. But nothing in the Scriptures indicate Israel is going to go through a time in Antichrist's reign when the international Church is gone! How absurd!
 
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CharismaticLady

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I am glad you are into Bible doctrines.

I wish that all Christians were that intrigued.

Also, I am that teacher you are speaking of.

I have been teaching and debating pre-trib rapture with no help from peers anymore.

Fact is, the saints seen at the wedding in early Rev 19, were long gone to heaven prior to Jesus' return with them in latter chapter 19.

The saints return WITH Jesus, not to be rescued by Jesus.

This requires a pre-removal of them to satisfy scripture.

Here they are first found...

Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


And here is the wedding...

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


These saints saw no wrath from chapter 6 through 19, but were in heaven the entire time, because of this promise....

Rev 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Hi T,

I read Revelation 19, and I would like you to see verse 20. That happens at the end of the GT, not before.

Also the Church of Philadelphia is only one denomination type of the last four that all overlap and all go the the second coming. Thyatira/Catholic/Orthodox; Sardis/Reformation; Philadelphia/Bible Keeping holiness; Laodecia/nominal Christians who are not born again. We must keep all of the New Covenant. I don't know what that will mean for Cessationists, who only keep part of our covenant.

If you notice Thyatira in Rev. 2, those who are caught up in worshiping Jezebel, the Babylonian mystery religion of the goddess and godchild (Catholic veneration of Mary and Jesus, with Mary being the main personage) will have to go through the GT, but will not be kept safe from the tribulations.
 

CharismaticLady

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There are not two Second Comings.

If you went to the hospital for the birth of a baby, you would not arrive days later, and look back and claim you never came at the actual birth. You have to actually be there at the time of birth. Armageddon is not the final harvest. It is 42 months after the final harvest.

So are you saying that the second coming of Christ is BEFORE the Great Tribulation?
 

Truther

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You may well be a teacher, and a defender of Pretrib. But what if you held to a Pretrib belief that is in error? You would be a teacher, alright, but a teacher of error! I also held to Pretrib for awhile, until I began to actually take the word at face value in 2 Thes 2. There, Paul unmistakably teaches Postrib. The Church will *not* be taken before the revelation and destruction of Antichrist.

You use Noah being taken and Lot being taken as examples of a Rapture of the Church *before* the Wrath of God, and yet seem not to recognize that they were rescued *at the same time* as God's judgments! This is hardly a Pretrib proof text!

Nor is citing the Throne Room vision in Rev 4-5 a Pretrib proof text, since that is simply a vision of heaven with no mention at all of a Pretrib Rapture! When John is told he must preach "after these things," he was not referring to the Church Age. Rather, he was speaking of the things that would happen in his generation to the 7 churches that lived in Asia Minor *at that time.* Your "proof texts" are being taken out of context.

In this case, you're adding context. You say the Marriage Supper of the Lamb precedes the Wrath of God. And yet, it is viewed in Scriptures as simultaneous with Israel's national Salvation! Not only so, but there are more than a single portrait of Jesus' Coming in the book of Revelation, and none of them are said to be Pretribulational.

Just seeing a prolepsis of Christ's Coming Kingdom before another vision of the 2nd Coming does not mean it is Pretribulational or that there is more than one coming of Jesus! The visions in the book of Revelation are not chronologically arranged, but are more than one vision, even if the book climaxes with a grand presentation of the 2nd Coming. If you're a teacher, you need to promote Christ, and not your eschatological beliefs.

There is not a single place in the Scriptures that Pretribulationism is taught. That is why the Church never taught that position for 1800 years! It just wasn't there.

Darby concocted it after 1830 because he wanted to believe in the future Salvation of National Israel, and explain it as different from the Church Age. Well, each nation does have its own prophetic timeline for Salvation, especially Israel, because Salvation in nations is progressive. But nothing in the Scriptures indicate Israel is going to go through a time in Antichrist's reign when the international Church is gone! How absurd!
I never met Darby, nor read his stuff.

All I need is scripture and it's precedent.

The post trib model requires a divine, individual force field around believers from the global wrath of God, which is silly to imagine.

Pre-removing the saints is Biblical and logical.

Just imagine some saint and their 4 little kids watching millions die horrible deaths all around them and the children not emotionally traumatized by their God's wrath, with little food and shelter thingy's popping up to feed and cover them for 7 years.

Crazy stuff.
 

Truther

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Hi T,

I read Revelation 19, and I would like you to see verse 20. That happens at the end of the GT, not before.

Also the Church of Philadelphia is only one denomination type of the last four that all overlap and all go the the second coming. Thyatira/Catholic/Orthodox; Sardis/Reformation; Philadelphia/Bible Keeping holiness; Laodecia/nominal Christians who are not born again. We must keep all of the New Covenant. I don't know what that will mean for Cessationists, who only keep part of our covenant.

If you notice Thyatira in Rev. 2, those who are caught up in worshiping Jezebel, the Babylonian mystery religion of the goddess and godchild (Catholic veneration of Mary and Jesus, with Mary being the main personage) will have to go through the GT, but will not be kept safe from the tribulations.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: 21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Hi.

This is depicting the destruction of the military establishment super powers of mankind.

This is when swords will be beat into plowshares etc.(per the 2nd coming).

Also, since the church is still around, these 7 letters in Rev 1 through 3 can apply to any situation today, just like the other Epistles do.

Per these letters to the 7 churches, we must overcome like Jesus overcame to qualify for Rev 3:10.

At this qualification, we will be kept from the hour of temptation...

This comes down to the individual making sure they are doctrinally and morally(via the Spirit) pure.

I don't want to be left behind, even at the beginning of Rev 6, because my world gets miserable when even the power goes out around here.
 

Timtofly

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So are you saying that the second coming of Christ is BEFORE the Great Tribulation?
The next earthly ministry will last for a few years during this time of great trouble. Jesus and God on the throne are going to be on earth during this "birth time". This period keeps getting shorter in length. Matthew 24:31

31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus Christ will be here during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. This is the time of unknown tribulation. Then Satan will get any leftover harvest.
 

Keraz

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The post trib model requires a divine, individual force field around believers from the global wrath of God, which is silly to imagine.
The faithful people of God will be taken to a place of safety; on earth. Revelation 12:14
Jesus will send out His angels to gather them to where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

A pre-trib 'rapture' is unbiblical error.
 

CharismaticLady

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20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: 21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Hi.

This is depicting the destruction of the military establishment super powers of mankind.

This is when swords will be beat into plowshares etc.(per the 2nd coming).

Also, since the church is still around, these 7 letters in Rev 1 through 3 can apply to any situation today, just like the other Epistles do.

Per these letters to the 7 churches, we must overcome like Jesus overcame to qualify for Rev 3:10.

At this qualification, we will be kept from the hour of temptation...

This comes down to the individual making sure they are doctrinally and morally(via the Spirit) pure.

I don't want to be left behind, even at the beginning of Rev 6, because my world gets miserable when even the power goes out around here.

Do you know what a paradigm is? I see the GT as the same as the plagues of Egypt. The children of Israel were kept from the plagues, but they were still IN Egypt.
 

Truther

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The faithful people of God will be taken to a place of safety; on earth. Revelation 12:14
Jesus will send out His angels to gather them to where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

A pre-trib 'rapture' is unbiblical error.
Texas?
 

Truther

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Do you know what a paradigm is? I see the GT as the same as the plagues of Egypt. The children of Israel were kept from the plagues, but they were still IN Egypt.
God did not compare the GT to Egypt.

Egypt is only compared to our former lives.

The GT has no comparison.
 

Nancy

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I never met Darby, nor read his stuff.

All I need is scripture and it's precedent.

The post trib model requires a divine, individual force field around believers from the global wrath of God, which is silly to imagine.

Pre-removing the saints is Biblical and logical.

Just imagine some saint and their 4 little kids watching millions die horrible deaths all around them and the children not emotionally traumatized by their God's wrath, with little food and shelter thingy's popping up to feed and cover them for 7 years.

Crazy stuff.

Hi Truther,
The way I see this is that "we are not appointed to God's wrath". But, this does not mean we will not be subject to Satan's persecution. I think some confuse the two. Tribulation saints will be sealed by an angel of God so as not to hurt them with all the bowls, and vials and such that are unleashed from the 7 seals.
Shouldn't we all be prepared in our faith either way?
 
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Randy Kluth

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I never met Darby, nor read his stuff.

All I need is scripture and it's precedent.

The post trib model requires a divine, individual force field around believers from the global wrath of God, which is silly to imagine.

Pre-removing the saints is Biblical and logical.

Just imagine some saint and their 4 little kids watching millions die horrible deaths all around them and the children not emotionally traumatized by their God's wrath, with little food and shelter thingy's popping up to feed and cover them for 7 years.

Crazy stuff.

Not crazy at all. It may sound crazy to a Pretribber, but to those familiar with Postrib nothing crazy about it. Here's where I believe you go wrong.

The Wrath of God is something poured out on the earth against the wicked. Never are we told that believers are not caught up in the fall out, with the exception of the occasions where God specifically gives us a way to escape. Certainly, that is not always possible. Jeremiah and Daniel were caught up in God's wrath against Israel, and suffered from the associated troubles. And they were never given a way out completely.

That is precisely where Jesus himself was. He went through a time of intense wickedness in Israel, when cruel Romans governed his land. He was given no path to escape, nor did he give his followers a complete escape from all suffering, although he did say they could avoid the siege on Jerusalem. Otherwise, they suffered just like any citizen of Israel would have at that time.

Call our suffering on this earth "collateral damage," or call us victims of "friendly fire," Jesus never said we would be spared the tribulations of this life. We are here suffering with the rest of the wicked world because this world is cursed.

And when particular judgments fall upon the wicked, sometimes we cannot escape some of the fall out. God assures us that the judgments are not aimed at us. But just as Jesus was not spared the wrath poured out on the wicked, neither can we avoid all of the wrath God pours out on the earth that is aimed at the wicked, and not at us.

In case you haven't noticed, the Church has already gone through 2000 years of just this kind of "Hell on earth?" What makes you think the Reign of Antichrist will be any different than the sufferings imposed by Nero, by Hitler, or by any other cruel tyrant in history? There really is no difference because it is the same demon-inspired people at work as the devil who will inspire the Antichrist.
 
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Randy Kluth

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I never met Darby, nor read his stuff.

I'll say it again. All of the major Pretrib arguments began with Darby. It would be interesting to compare current Pretrib teachers with Darby's arguments for the same. The fact that these arguments *did not exist* before Darby should tell you where Pretrib came from, and indeed where you got your own arguments from. You don't have to know where you got your arguments from. The point is, Darby's arguments have been cycled through to you, because it didn't come from anywhere else in history.
 
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Truther

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Hi Truther,
The way I see this is that "we are not appointed to God's wrath". But, this does not mean we will not be subject to Satan's persecution. I think some confuse the two. Tribulation saints will be sealed by an angel of God so as not to hurt them with all the bowls, and vials and such that are unleashed from the 7 seals.
Shouldn't we all be prepared in our faith either way?
Only the 144,000 are sealed.

There is no scripture of God sheltering saints from the GT plagues.

Plus, it would be horrifying to us to witness the destruction of our neighbors and we just have to stand there and cannot help.

It is anti faith/hope to tell new believers to expect all this.(Also, God has not told us to be preppers in His word).

We are saved by hope and should pray to be counted worthy to escape these things.
 

Truther

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Not crazy at all. It may sound crazy to a Pretribber, but to those familiar with Postrib nothing crazy about it. Here's where I believe you go wrong.

The Wrath of God is something poured out on the earth against the wicked. Never are we told that believers are not caught up in the fall out, with the exception of the occasions where God specifically gives us a way to escape. Certainly, that is not always possible. Jeremiah and Daniel were caught up in God's wrath against Israel, and suffered from the associated troubles. And they were never given a way out completely.

That is precisely where Jesus himself was. He went through a time of intense wickedness in Israel, when cruel Romans governed his land. He was given no path to escape, nor did he give his followers a complete escape from all suffering, although he did say they could avoid the siege on Jerusalem. Otherwise, they suffered just like any citizen of Israel would have at that time.

Call our suffering on this earth "collateral damage," or call us victims of "friendly fire," Jesus never said we would be spared the tribulations of this life. We are here suffering with the rest of the wicked world because this world is cursed.

And when particular judgments fall upon the wicked, sometimes we cannot escape some of the fall out. God assures us that the judgments are not aimed at us. But just as Jesus was not spared the wrath poured out on the wicked, neither can we avoid all of the wrath God pours out on the earth that is aimed at the wicked, and not at us.

In case you haven't noticed, the Church has already gone through 2000 years of just this kind of "Hell on earth?" What makes you think the Reign of Antichrist will be any different than the sufferings imposed by Nero, by Hitler, or by any other cruel tyrant in history? There really is no difference because it is the same demon-inspired people at work as the devil who will inspired the Antichrist.
Do you teach the saints will be collateral damage?

Are you a Great Tribulation prepper?

Does Jesus or the Apostles warn us to be preppers or just suffer the wrath of God with the wicked?

Or, did Jesus say this?....


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 

Truther

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I'll say it again. All of the major Pretrib arguments began with Darby. It would be interesting to compare current Pretrib teachers with Darby's arguments for the same. The fact that these arguments *did not exist* before Darby should tell you where Pretrib came from, and indeed where you got your own arguments from. You don't have to know where you got your arguments from. The point is, Darby's arguments have by cycled through to you, because it didn't come from anywhere else in history.
I will say it again.

I need no assistance with extra Biblical commentary.

I can prove a pre trib rapture with scripture alone....


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Not this....


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee THROUGH the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 

CharismaticLady

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Only the 144,000 are sealed.

There is no scripture of God sheltering saints from the GT plagues.

Plus, it would be horrifying to us to witness the destruction of our neighbors and we just have to stand there and cannot help.

It is anti faith/hope to tell new believers to expect all this.(Also, God has not told us to be preppers in His word).

We are saved by hope and should pray to be counted worthy to escape these things.

The beginning of the GT is when the partial blindness of national Israel is lifted, and also the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, meaning no more Gentiles will be newly saved. Now the focus goes back to national Israel and all Israel shall be saved and become part of the Church, the Bride of Christ. Jesus is not a polygamist. There are not two brides, so who do you think are they that "come out of the Great Tribulation, if the Bride has already been raptured? Do you think God favors the wild olive tree over the natural?

As you can see by the letters to the seven churches, the last four are known denominations that go to the second coming beginning with Thyatira, the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church, the only denominations who revere Jezebel, the goddess and her godchild Babylonian mystery religion who revere the goddess even more than the child. (Then Sardis, the Protestant denominations linked to the Reformation, from Lutheran, Reformed and then Methodists in white robes at the end of that era; then Philadelphia, who take holiness and keeping the Word of God to a new level; then the falling away of the heart nominal Christian we have now of Laodecia.)

Many of today's Christians have to overcome as they are in name only, but not born again. They have to be tested by tribulation. It is they that will be beheaded if they do not take the mark of the beast, but survive the seals. Those who have already overcome before the start of the GT will be protected, and not have to be tested by martyrdom. The Philadelphians are the Christians who will be "alive and remain" to the second coming, as all other types of Christians who are neither hot nor cold, but are nominal Christians will be martyred.

During the first half of the GT, the martyred will be nominal Christians from before the start of the GT. The second half, will include Jews.

Revelation 12:
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (the partial blindness is healed), from the presence of the serpent. (3 1/2 years) 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman (national Israel), that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. (National Israel coming into the Church was protected.) 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (the Church), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months (the last half of the GT, another 3 1/2 years). 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them (more martyrs of both Jew and Gentile). (Again, remember the Philadelphians will be alive and remain protected during those 7 years of GT.)