Hebrews 10:26-31

justbyfaith said:

However, if you believe that you are saved because you were saved; but in all reality are not saved because you stopped abiding in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), your only way back is to acknowledge that you are not saved and to turn to Jesus Christ for salvation. But if you think you are saved because of OSAS doctrine, you won't do that; you will think that you are safe and secure in the midst of your sinful lifestyle.

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That is not the issue sir. The issue is that not all who says they believe are genuine believers. People believe for many reasons. That is understood in what Jesus said in John 8:31. And according to what Jesus said there, which is what I believe. Genuine believers remain in His word and indeed are His disciples. Those who don’t are not.

Tong
R1509

justbyfaith said:

This is simply an argument that is easily demolished by the weapons of our warfare which are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds.


Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rom 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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With all of that scriptures, why do you not see that the new covenant was not according to the old covenant? By the way what do you understand by that?

Let me try and lead you to the truth about the law in the new covenant with those scriptures. I want you to see for yourself.

A law is there for the people to live by and walk after them, do you agree? I am pretty sure you will. So the old covenant law was given to the covenant people for them to live by and walk after it. That law was written in stone and papyrus or leather perhaps. So the new covenant law was given to the covenant people for them to live by and walk after it. That law was written in the minds and hearts of the covenant people. Now look at the scriptures you quoted.

Tong
R1510

justbyfaith said:

I have it.

It is based in the following scripture.

1Jo 4:6, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I can discern whether someone is saved or not by the way that they react to what I preach to them.

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One could only discern as much perhaps, but not as to mean he can know for certain the heart of a person. Only God can.

Tong
R1511

justbyfaith said:

It most certainly is a major part of the issue.

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Do you believe in the words of Jesus in John 8:31?

Tong
R1512

Tong2020 said:

Those questions of Paul in Gal. 3:2-3 to them does not make of them to be genuine believers sir. A pastor asking those to the local church, would that mean they are genuine believers? Nope.

The same with 1 Cor.15:1, not that Paul call them brothers and sisters make of them genuine believers. And not that they were said to have received the gospel, necessarily mean they are genuine believers sir.

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Like I say, you and I can think whatever we want about whether or not a true believer can stop believing, but the important thing that actually matters is that you not find yourself in the place of unbelief, and how to recognize if you are. And if you do find yourself in the position of being in unbelief you need to be fully aware that if you remain in that unbelief you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. That's what matters.

Settling the question of whether or not that can actually happen to you is curious but meaningless fluff. It does not change the fact that you have to have been a believer in this life to the very end in order to enter the kingdom when Jesus comes back. I see a lot of people thinking that just adopting the real teaching about OSAS is what makes them ready to meet Jesus. They derive assurance that they are really saved from that instead of what the Bible says you are to draw your assurance of salvation from.

Tong2020 said:

The point remains, no one knows the heart of man except God, one like you could be certain that another is a genuine believer or not.

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I agree that we can't judge with absolute certainty, but the Bible does give us lots of guidance on how to know if you should consider another person a true believer or not.

Tong2020 said:

Well, it is not whether it matters or not to you . It’s a matter of truth. And there isn’t a time that truth does not matter sir.

And truth is not refuted, not ever.

And the truth is as Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.” John 8:31
The truth sets a man free.

Tong
R1506

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In matters of importance, what does it benefit you to know a truth that can not save you if you neglect the truth that can?

justbyfaith said:

I can discern whether someone is saved or not by the way that they react to what I preach to them.

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Ain't that the truth! Lol.

justbyfaith said:

The response when I discern that someone isn't born again isn't pointing the finger; it is prayer.

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But your discernment is anyone who doesnt agree with your, its a long way off.....

Behold said:

Ive not said anything about you doing works.
Why the dishonesty?

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No dishonesty here. You're trying to say having faith condemns a person like doing works condemns a person.

Behold said:

Yes, and if you read vs 25, you get the context of all that..
Its this..

Jesus is eternal life. and if we have HIM< we have eternal life, as HE is Eternal life.
And so, to have Him, is to have Him IN YOU>...... and He always remains in you, and you always remain "in Christ", if you are born again.
Being born again, is to have Jesus in you, and to have Jesus in you, is impossible to change.

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You're saying you don't have to continue to have faith for you to remain in Christ. But John says to let the word remain in you, and if you do that you will continue in the Son and the Father. It's a condition. I have to keep believing in order to remain in the Son (whether or not I can do otherwise is NOT the point).

24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1 John 3:24

But you say if I don't let the word of God remain in me I will continue in the Son and the Father. In addition to what John says, Paul says that the word of the gospel saves you if you hold firmly to the word.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

But you say I am saved if I don't hold firmly to the word. You contradict Paul. Now don't try to make some kind of argument from the "otherwise, you have believed in vain" part because no matter what argument you bring up about that it doesn't change the part that says you are saved if you hold firmly to word. You say you are saved if you DON'T hold firmly to the word.

Behold said:

If i keep my faith, i dont go to hell.
So, that is having faith that faith will keep you out of hell.

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"If I keep my faith, I don't go to hell" means "if I keep my faith IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, I don't go to hell". (Romans 3:25 — "faith in His blood")

Romans 5:1-2
...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Faith (in the blood) is the conduit through which we receive the grace of God. If you close the conduit of faith you no longer have access to God's grace.

marks said:

Condemned by who?

You judge a man by your perceptions of their behavior, while Jesus looks and sees who are His children and who are not by virtue of justification as a gift received by our faith.

Who is it who condemns? Jesus intercedes for us, and He is humanity's judge.

Much love!

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19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21

If God, through Paul, says that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, why can't I say it too?

John comes right out and says we can know who's saved and who's not.....

10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:10

Why can't I know who is a child of God and who is a child of the devil if John tells me how I can know that?

justbyfaith said:

Of course. What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

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It’s pointing out to what Jesus has to say about the issue that we are discussing on how can one tell whether one is a true beliwvee or not. If you believe what Jesus said there, which is not io foe dispute, then we agree that a true believer is one who remains and abide in Jesus’ word, otherwise he is not a true believer.

Tong
R1514

justbyfaith said:

It is not something that I would argue with you over.

The response when I discern that someone isn't born again isn't pointing the finger; it is prayer.

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So we agree on that then that no man can know and say with certainty the heart of man.

Tong
R1515

marks said:

Anything you do that does not come as a product of our faith in Christ comes from our flesh. Because that which is born of God does not sin.

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If I understand your argument correctly you are saying sin in the believer does not come from the born again part of them, but from the flesh, and so it is in that way that they do not sin (even though they sin). The problem with that interpretation is the passage itself says the sinning that the righteous person doesn't do means literally not doing sinful things, and the sinning the unrighteous person does means literally doing sinful things.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil... 1 John 3:7-8

Ferris Bueller said:

If I understand your argument correctly you are saying sin in the believer does not come from the born again part of them, but from the flesh, and so it is in that way that they do not sin (even though they sin). The problem with that interpretation is the passage itself says the sinning that the righteous person doesn't do means literally not doing sinful things, and the sinning the unrighteous person does means literally doing sinful things.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil... 1 John 3:7-8

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Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those in Christ cannot sin, end of story, the flesh is of no concern to Christ, but satan loves men dwellingon sin makes them prisoners of it, wonder how long you intend on staying in prision.