Yes, of course, sin does the sinning.
Did you fail to read Romans 6:6, which tells us that the body of sin has been destroyed?
Was that all that you see in Romans 7:17,20? And do you understand what you just said you saw in there, that sin does the sinning? Please explain to us what you mean by that.
Did you not see that it was not Paul's will to do the evil thing? That Paul's will is to do and obey the law, which is good? That, while that was his will, the evil act (the sin) was still that which he did. Did you missed to see all that? If you saw those of Paul, you would not perhaps be saying that Paul was playing the carnal man (as opposed to the spiritual man). Why? Because, the carnal man's will is not anything like Paul's there. The carnal man is not concerned at all about the law, of what is bad or good. His will is to satisfy the flesh, the lust of his flesh. He has no struggle as that with Paul. I hope you see this now.
Yes I read Romans 6:6 sir. It's just that I don't have the same reading as you. It does not say that the body of sin that was done away with, but the old man. Do you not realize, that all believers are still with their sinful flesh, the body of death? If your reading is correct then, that would not be the case. They all should be physically dead, their flesh (body) no more.
Tong2020 said:
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Paul, when he said “I am carnal”, he said that in contrast to the law, not to the spiritual man. I suggest you think about that for Paul was not talking about a carnal man as opposed to a spiritual man in Rom.7:14.
He was indeed talking about the carnal man. And if not in contrast to the spiritual man, the scripture there does not make any sense.
<<<He was indeed talking about the carnal man.>>>
See what I've shown you on the segment above, regarding that.
<<<And if not in contrast to the spiritual man, the scripture there does not make any sense.>>>
Well, that's your problem with your interpretation, I see. Here, read again what Romans 7:14 says
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Do you not see that Paul said "I am carnal", in contrast to the law, not in contrast to the spiritual man that you say? Believe it or not, understand it or not, nothing would change the fact that he is not saying that in contrast to the spiritual man that you refer to.
Tong2020 said:
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Now, that means that the reality is man is yet with sinful flesh, believer or not, carnal or spiritual. Both the carnal man and the spiritual man have sinful flesh, the body of death. Sinful flesh where there is nothing good that dwells, where sin dwells. Try reading Rom. 7 again now with that reality in mind.
Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define those who are carnal in order that he might reach the carnally-minded.
Therefore verses 17 and 20 are to be taken in that context and seen in light of Romans 6:6.
Repeatedly saying that about Romans 7:14-25, even in eternal circles, will not make that to be true nor make your case. You have to refute what I said and have presented to you, which goes against what you teach there. Show us. Well of course you can't deny nor refute that both the believer and unbeliever, the carnal man and spiritual man, are still with a sinful flesh, a body of death.
Tong2020 said:
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Will you tell us about the "indwelling sin" you say you teach we all have?
Sure.
Gal 5:19, Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
What you have there are the works of the flesh. Perhaps you can tell us where sin indwells the man, how it make such works that we have there in those passages you quoted.
In mine, you must keep in memory the gospel in order to be saved...for that is what the scripture says, straight out, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
I know that is written in 1 Cor.15:1-4. And if one reads it by its own, you have the right understanding. But not if one reads it in context, even the broader context of the salvation of God ~ salvation is of God, is all of His will, and is the work of God. It is God who works in the one He is saving, both to will and to do, all that is good ~ believing, enduring, loving, etc.
Tong
R1535
