Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

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Base12

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We have a soul and body today, but were we just a soul beforehand?

Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me. Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?

Does sin have something to do with physical objects?
Hi pittsburghjoe.

Are you asking because you watched my Genesis video or seen my research?

I am trying to avoid a feedback loop.
 
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justbyfaith

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Here is a Rabbi that believes the Skins were what we have now.

Fast forward to 26:00...


That is doctrine that is not faithful; in alignment with gnosticism.

It is to say that Adam was not come in the flesh when he was without sin; and it implies that because Jesus is without sin, He is not come in the flesh.

However, that is unfaithful doctrine (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
 
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Sabertooth

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We have a soul and body today, but were we just a soul beforehand?
To me, two facts point to the physicality of their bodies:

1. They needed to eat.
“See, I have given you
every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and
every tree whose fruit yields seed;​
to you it shall be for food..." Genesis 1:29 NKJV

Pre-fallen Man had to eat, but supply easily kept up with demand (until the ground was cursed in Genesis 3:17-19).

2. They were expected to make babies.
“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;..." Genesis 1:28 NKJV

Ethereal souls cannot do that.

What is telling is that they were commissioned to do so before the Fall, but Eve's first conception took place AFTER the Fall. That strongly suggests that they fell before Eve's first ovulation. (That would be about a month, at most, by today's standards.)
 
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justbyfaith

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To me, two facts point to the physicality of their bodies:

1. They needed to eat.
“See, I have given you
every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and
every tree whose fruit yields seed;​
to you it shall be for food..." Genesis 1:29 NKJV

Pre-fallen Man had to eat, but supply easily kept up with demand (until the ground was cursed in Genesis 3:17-19).

2. They were expected to make babies.
“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;..." Genesis 1:28 NKJV

Ethereal souls cannot do that.

What is telling is that they were commissioned to do so before the Fall, but Eve's first conception took place AFTER the Fall. That strongly suggests that they fell before Eve's first ovulation. (That would be about a month by today's standards.)
Actually, Eve was said to be the mother of all living even before Cain was born.

Therefore, I believe that Adam and Eve had children who were not subjected to the curse (elves?).
 

justbyfaith

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That opinion has no Scriptural support.
Sure it does.

Eve was "the mother of all living" before Cain was born....was not Cain the firstborn whom she called a man?

If there were no children before Cain and before the fall, how or why was she the mother of all living?
 

Sabertooth

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If there were no children before Cain and before the fall, how or why was she the mother of all living?
There was no such other children identified [at least, her would-be firstborn].
Their fate of living with cursed parents, on cursed ground was never recorded.
They were denied access to the Tree of Life, too, when their would-be innocence would not have disqualified them so.
There were never two classes of humans, Fallen & Unfallen.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—..." Romans 5:12 NKJV​
 

justbyfaith

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There was no such other children identified [at least, her would-be firstborn].
Their fate of living with cursed parents, on cursed ground was never recorded.
They were denied access to the Tree of Life, too, when their would-be innocence would not have disqualified them so.
There were never two classes of humans, Fallen & Unfallen.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world,
and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—..." Romans 5:12 NKJV​
The unfallen would not be classified as men.
 

Sabertooth

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The unfallen would not be classified as men.
“Then God said,
'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
let them have dominion

over the fish of the sea,
over the birds of the air, and
over the cattle,
over all the earth and
over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
'​
So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.” Genesis 1:26-27 NKJV​

(That was before the fall.)
 

justbyfaith

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“Then God said,
'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
let them have dominion

over the fish of the sea,
over the birds of the air, and
over the cattle,
over all the earth and
over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
'​
So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.” Genesis 1:26-27 NKJV​

(That was before the fall.)
Okay, you win.

But I still think that Eve, being the mother of all living before Cain was born, that the "all living" there were elves.

Also, Santa Claus may have been a 4th century saint who was designated Ephesus and therefore as an overcomer, he gained access to the tree of life.

Just a theory.

I knew someone a while ago who was 58 years old and still believed in Santa. He also loved trains. His name was Russell. I believe that a story was written about him in an excellent book that I recommend, Tales of the Neverending.
 

Sabertooth

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You are certainly free to theorize such. I am just saying that theory is extra-Biblical.
(I have some extra-Biblical theories of my own, but I recognize them as being such.)

Elves in folklore were often portrayed as being mischievous ["Santa" excepted],
not glorious (as unfallen angels were shown to be).
 

Renniks

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There are 3 earth ages...
I have always believed our spirit dwelt with God until we were born.
In the first earth age some have theorized that this was the time that heaven existed on earth until the fall of satan...spiritually.
Then God made a decision to make it physical and spoke it into existence.
Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked.....(not physically naked but spiritually because God's glory lifted off them when they disobeyed. )
When God discovered their sin he made them "skins" to cover their nakedness...(not bear skins, wolf skins, cowhide or any such type)
No he made the skins from the dust of the earth and breathed their spirit into the skins.
Of course, that's not what scriptures says at all. It says he used animal skins. So you are in disagreement with the Word of God.
 

pittsburghjoe

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Why does anything have to be physical is a universe of waves?

Dust sounds like particles to me. And particles can be in waveform when not observed.
 

Heart2Soul

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You are certainly free to theorize such. I am just saying that theory is extra-Biblical.
(I have some extra-Biblical theories of my own, but I recognize them as being such.)

Elves in folklore were often portrayed as being mischievous ["Santa" excepted],
not glorious (as unfallen angels were shown to be).
Since there is much left unsaid about creation then it isn't so wrong to seek a deeper knowledge and understanding of it.
Why do you think there are so many questions people have about it?
 
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Heart2Soul

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Of course, that's not what scriptures says at all. It says he used animal skins. So you are in disagreement with the Word of God.
I agree with every single word written in the Bible.
Your statement is not in the bible so you may be the one adding to it and creating your own bible.:p
 
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Heart2Soul

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Of course, that's not what scriptures says at all. It says he used animal skins. So you are in disagreement with the Word of God.
Job 10:11
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews."
 
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Base12

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I'm new, I don't know what you are talking about.
Oh OK. Well then...
We have a soul and body today, but were we just a soul beforehand?
I interpret the following verse (and other verses in the Bible) to mean we have a Body, Soul, and Spirit...

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


According to Scripture:

Soul is the complete Genome of an individual, as in the letters (A,C,G,T) that make up DNA.
Spirit is the electricity that flows through all Life.
Body is everything else (flesh, bones, etc.).

After death, the Spirit still continues to exist as Electromagnetism and Soul exists as Information.

Every Soul is unique, just as our DNA and genetic makeup is. Our Soul is our unique identity.

As for Adam and Eve, I believe they existed in a 'pre-incarnate' form of Soul and Spirit (Living Soul). If they did possess a Body, it was not physical like we have today. It was, as you suggest, still in the world of the Wave Function.
Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me.
This could very well be True.

Here is an interesting verse...

2 Corinthians 3:18
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."


The image in the Glass (Mirror) exists in the Spirit World of the Wave Function, while we exist in the world of Particles. There seems to be a type of 'Higher Self' being eluded to here as well as Quantum Entanglement.
Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?
Yes. I believe Scripture teaches this.
Does sin have something to do with physical objects?
If Adam, Eve, and even Angels were capable of sinning before our physical Universe existed, then perhaps the answer is no?
 
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