Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

Sabertooth · Jan 25, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
Why do you think there are so many questions people have about it?

I am not sure what you are asking here. I just don't see any Biblical support for any other humans preceding Adam, Eve or Cain.

I do believe in a gap of unspecified duration while the Spirit hovered over the surface of the waters [Genesis 1:2], but according to Scripture, it was dormant. (I call it Day 0.)

There was not yet air to breathe. That happened on Day 2, vv. 6-8.
There was not yet dry land to stand on. That happened on Day 3, vv. 9-10.

Heart2Soul · Jan 25, 2021

Sabertooth said:
I am not sure what you are asking here. I just don't see any Biblical support for any other humans preceding Adam, Eve or Cain.

I do believe in a gap of unspecified duration while the Spirit hovered over the surface of the waters [Genesis 1:2], but according to Scripture, it was dormant. (I call it Day 0.)

There was not yet air to breathe. That happened on Day 2, vv. 6-8.
There was not yet dry land to stand on. That happened on Day 3, vv. 9-10.

Explain the 3 earth ages.

Sabertooth · Jan 25, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
Explain the 3 earth ages.

Where does that phrase come from?

Base12 · Jan 25, 2021

MattMooradian said:
There may be one substance that can do this, dark matter.

Dark Matter is the Sea of Glass Firmament of outer space that separates our Universe from Higher Dimensions.

Job 37:18
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"

Heart2Soul · Jan 25, 2021

Sabertooth said:
Where does that phrase come from?

I will get back to you...it's in the Bible.

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

Base12 said:
Oh OK. Well then...

I interpret the following verse (and other verses in the Bible) to mean we have a Body, Soul, and Spirit...

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Scripture:

Soul is the complete Genome of an individual, as in the letters (A,C,G,T) that make up DNA.
Spirit is the electricity that flows through all Life.
Body is everything else (flesh, bones, etc.).

After death, the Spirit still continues to exist as Electromagnetism and Soul exists as Information.

Every Soul is unique, just as our DNA and genetic makeup is. Our Soul is our unique identity.

As for Adam and Eve, I believe they existed in a 'pre-incarnate' form of Soul and Spirit (Living Soul). If they did possess a Body, it was not physical like we have today. It was, as you suggest, still in the world of the Wave Function.

This could very well be True.

Here is an interesting verse...

2 Corinthians 3:18
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

The image in the Glass (Mirror) exists in the Spirit World of the Wave Function, while we exist in the world of Particles. There seems to be a type of 'Higher Self' being eluded to here as well as Quantum Entanglement.

Yes. I believe Scripture teaches this.

If Adam, Eve, and even Angels were capable of sinning before our physical Universe existed, then perhaps the answer is no?

We had a spiritual death with original sin ..that was our link to God's orderly Kingdom.

Satan was here before us. We relinquished authority when we decided to enter this place. The authority defaulted to Satan.

Sin from a human is different than an angel.

Renniks · Jan 25, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
I agree with every single word written in the Bible.
Your statement is not in the bible so you may be the one adding to it and creating your own bible.

Let's start with "naked." "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed" (Genesis 2:25). The word 'arowm in Hebrew does not mean without skin. It means nude, either totally or partially. In other words it is the exposure of skin, not the absence of skin. This is simple illustrated by Saul, "And he also stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"" (I Samuel 19:24). One becomes naked when clothing is removed, not when skin is removed.

The tunics were made of skins. The Hebrew word 'owr means hide, leather or skin. Since Adam and Eve were the only two humans at this time, this verse is not saying that God gave them their own skins back to them.

Base12 · Jan 25, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:
We had a spiritual death with original sin...

The phrase 'Spiritual Death' is not in my Bible, therefore I do not believe in it.

Spirit does not die.

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

You still have a soul.

Base12 · Jan 25, 2021

Renniks said:
The word 'arowm in Hebrew...

The original Hebrew definition of the word is irrelevant with regards to the context of the entire Bible.

"Clothed with skins" means just that. It is the skin we have now. There is an obvious, deeper meaning that some can see, while others can not. If you wish to water down the Word of God into some silly children's tale of how Adam and Eve forgot to put on their underwear, then that is on you.

Meanwhile, the rest of us that are no longer on Milk will keep feeding on the Meat.

Example:

2 Corinthians 5:4
"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

The Tabernacle is the Body that we are 'clothed' with. Are you suggesting that we clothe ourselves with Candlesticks and Brazen Altars?

Again, we look to the deeper meaning. Being 'unclothed' has everything to do with our *BODIES* and not Fruit of the Loom.

Here is another example:

2 Corinthians 5:2
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

According to Renninks, we desire to be clothed with a garage, kitchen, and bathroom.

Base12 · Jan 25, 2021

MattMooradian said:
Might be, or is? How do you have such knowledge?

I specialize in certain areas of Scripture.

Here is an artists rendition of Dark Matter mingled with Fire...

They actually describe it as a Sea of Glass.

Renniks · Jan 25, 2021

Base12 said:
The original Hebrew definition of the word is irrelevant with regards to the context of the entire Bible.

Lol, that tells me all I need to know. It's obvious you don't want to know what it actually means, just what you want it to mean.

justbyfaith · Jan 25, 2021

Sabertooth said:
You are certainly free to theorize such. I am just saying that theory is extra-Biblical.
(I have some extra-Biblical theories of my own, but I recognize them as being such.)

Elves in folklore were often portrayed as being mischievous ["Santa" excepted],
not glorious (as unfallen angels were shown to be).

In the folklore of the Lord of the Rings, elves are portrayed not as mischievous but with a certain glorious element to them.

I do believe that my theory has biblical backing for it; which I have already set forth.

Base12 said:
As for Adam and Eve, I believe they existed in a 'pre-incarnate' form of Soul and Spirit (Living Soul). If they did possess a Body, it was not physical like we have today. It was, as you suggest, still in the world of the Wave Function.

Adam and Eve possessed a physical body, they ate fruit.

Anything else is conducive to the idea of gnosticism; a heresy that almost destroyed the early church.

MattMooradian said:
Thomas did "feel" Jesus' hand,

Actually, Thomas didn't touch Jesus in that instance.

However, Peter did touch Jesus' hand in Matthew 14:31.

And after His resurrection, He ate a piece of broiled fish and honeycomb.

Base12 said:
"Clothed with skins" means just that. It is the skin we have now.

It is referring to animal skins.

pittsburghjoe · Jan 25, 2021

"John Wheeler proposed one solution, that the universe was only a quantum wave until humans came along to interact with it and cause the collapse backwards in time. Hawking wrote that history happens backwards in time rather than forwards." - Andy Fletcher

Original Sin started this fallen reality.

HisLife · Jan 26, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Okay, you win.

But I still think that Eve, being the mother of all living before Cain was born, that the "all living" there were elves.

Also, Santa Claus may have been a 4th century saint who was designated Ephesus and therefore as an overcomer, he gained access to the tree of life.

Just a theory.

I knew someone a while ago who was 58 years old and still believed in Santa. He also loved trains. His name was Russell. I believe that a story was written about him in an excellent book that I recommend, Tales of the Neverending.

Woah man Are you doing ok, Do You think Eve Had Elves That Didn't Sin And you think that Santa Gained Acces to the tree of Life?

HisLife · Jan 26, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
There are 3 earth ages...
I have always believed our spirit dwelt with God until we were born.
In the first earth age some have theorized that this was the time that heaven existed on earth until the fall of satan...spiritually.
Then God made a decision to make it physical and spoke it into existence.
Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked.....(not physically naked but spiritually because God's glory lifted off them when they disobeyed. )
When God discovered their sin he made them "skins" to cover their nakedness...(not bear skins, wolf skins, cowhide or any such type)
No he made the skins from the dust of the earth and breathed their spirit into the skins.

That theory opens a Lot Of problems, As An example why Didn't the angels Get skin and bodies when they sinned, It makes the creation and The Fruit in the Garden symbolic not literal

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Natural Body Comes First Then The Spiritual, Also Jesus Is The Only One That Came From Heaven, Alao If man Was Spiritually with God Jesus Wouldnt Say I never Knew you, Plus many more examples

justbyfaith · Jan 26, 2021

HisLife said:
Woah man Are you doing ok,

Doing just fine thank you very much; and I also know that you do not ask this in sincerity.

HisLife · Jan 26, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Doing just fine thank you very much; and I also know that you do not ask this in sincerity.

You are wrong, Yes I do, I worry about you since I read your testimony, And it seems things aren't in proportion, God Gives Us a sound mind lets reason Together

justbyfaith · Jan 26, 2021

HisLife said:
You are wrong, Yes I do, I worry about you since I read your testimony, And it seems things aren't in proportion, God Gives Us a sound mind lets reason Together

By all means set forth your reasoning.

Though the issue at hand is peripheral and does not pertain to salvation in the slightest.

HisLife · Jan 26, 2021

justbyfaith said:
By all means set forth your reasoning.

Though the issue at hand is peripheral and does not pertain to salvation in the slightest.

It Actually does Because you must believe the truth, Bear with me... Have you ever Seen Elves Or Santa

Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

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