John Darby
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Billy Evmur
Active Member
Paul said concerning our meeting the Lord in the clouds, that day will not come until ...
... until there has come the rebellion
the man of sin is revealed ... who opposeth everything called God or worshipped as God [this is the Great Tribulation]
he [the man of sin ] sits in the temple declaring that he is himself God
who is destroyed by the returning Lord.
That's what Paul said.
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
The rapture (catching up) is NOT the same event as the return of Jesus to earth to set up His kingdom and to rule the nations with a rod of iron!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I think people should start collecting rent from the Dar2by estate! He has been living rent free in many peoples minds for a long long long time! 
It is amazing that other post reformation people who recovered sound biblical doctrine from the dark ages never got so much condemnation as Darby! Just because God opted to rescue more important doctrines ahead of eschatology from Augustine and Romanism, he gets a bad rap.
As for me, when they get raptured pre-trib along with us who know the truth, I will still welcome them fully. Though given my sense of humor, if I were god, I would rapture just the pretribbers first, wait a day or so, then open heaven and with a booming voice, say "Ah, come on up, I was only kidding!
It is amazing that other post reformation people who recovered sound biblical doctrine from the dark ages never got so much condemnation as Darby! Just because God opted to rescue more important doctrines ahead of eschatology from Augustine and Romanism, he gets a bad rap.
As for me, when they get raptured pre-trib along with us who know the truth, I will still welcome them fully. Though given my sense of humor, if I were god, I would rapture just the pretribbers first, wait a day or so, then open heaven and with a booming voice, say "Ah, come on up, I was only kidding!
Keraz
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What will actually happen, is the sudden and shocking Lord's Day of fiery wrath will strike the world, Isaiah 66:15-17, Psalms 50:1-3, Revelation 6:12-17, +
Everyone will experience it and God will protect those who call upon His Name. Zephaniah 2:3, Isaiah 43:2, Nahum 1:7, +
The really sad thing is how 'rapture' believers like you really think they will go to heaven. A sci-fi idea that way surpasses Starship Enterprise; at least Captain Kirk knew what he acted in was not reality!
Jesus said 6 times that such a thing was impossible. We have work to do here, we must endure until the end of the age. Matthew 24:13
Billy Evmur
Active Member
He comes in the clouds and we shall meet Him in the clouds, so shall we ever be with the Lord.
... it happens "after the tribulation of those days"
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you love being wrong but that is okay!
If God protects His people He fails miserably during the tribulation period. The only thing believers in the Trib get protected from are the locust like critters out of the abyss that sting unbelievers!
Otherwise, they die of starvation, perils of teh trib, they get murdered throughout the trib
Rev. 6- over 1/4th the words population dies
Rev. 7 the saints suffer hunger and thirst in the trib!
REv. 11 saints will die
REv. 12 saints are dying
REv. 13 Antichrist overcomes the saints
REv. 14- the 144,000 are killed-AND IN HEAVEN-WHOOPS!
Rev. 16 hailsotnes fall upon men (not just unbelievers)
Zeph 2 is a conditional not a surety.
Is. 43 is for Jews not for gentiles!
Nahum 1 does not guarentee protection from teh tribulation period which is a unique time in all the earthj
But as for the Chruch being in heaven
Paul said that is where we go at teh moment of death as you have seen
and Jesus said He is preparing a place for us right now in HIs Fathers house. HIs Father house is in heaven.
So for you to hold to your silly thoughts that saints do not go to be where Jesus is now- is just unbiblical.
Keraz
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Jesus said that where He is going we cannot come. John 7:34, and from other verses we know it applies to us today.
In Revelation 12:14, it says the faithful Christians will be kept in a safe place for the 1260 day Great Trib. In verse 17, it says that some of the Christians, those who broke the Covenant, must remain in Jerusalem. Daniel 11:32
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Your inability to keep things in context is becoming more saddening! In JOhn Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and not speaking to teh soon to be members of the church! But He did tell the church where they would go in:
John 14
King James Version
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
As for rev. 12? You are devolving in your attempt to defend the undefendable.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
These are Israelis! The church did not bring forth the man child. The man child brought forth the church! This is the fulfilling of the prophecy Jesus gave in Matt. 24- that place is most likely the rock city fortress called Petra. and there the Jews of Israel will stay and be cared fo by god for 3 1/2 prior to teh last three days before Jesus returns and the vale is finally lifted and the All Israel that survived will get saved and call upon teh Lord causing Jesus to return as He said in
Matthew 23:36-39
King James Version
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
- 2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - 2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
King James Version
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
So please explain why Jesus, John and Paul are wrong in what they wrote as written and why I should take your words literally, when you do not take their words literally.
Keraz
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What they said was true and right. It is people like you who mis-interpret them, who are wrong.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses.
John 14:1-4 refers to Eternity, after the Millennium.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You're claiming what you wish to prove. The arguments that Darby uses to prove a Pretrib Rapture are original to him--they are not found in Paul's writings. Paul's statements are reconstructed, by Darby, to prove a Pretrib Rapture--something Paul *never* did!
For example, Paul never used the term "Pretribulational Rapture," never used "two Comings," never mentioned two histories for Israel and the Church. This is an example of "Darby-speak."
He never tried to distinguish between pretribulational appearance and 2nd coming. He never said we are to "expect Christ at any moment." Again, this is Pretrib language, and not Paul's language.
What Paul said is changed to conform to a Pretrib argument by Darby. And many of Darby's arguments are still being used today by Pretribbers. They distort the same statements of Paul to reflect Pretrib arguments--something that Paul did not himself do!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
This is not a legitimate argument. The "tribulations" and problems of the time of Antichrist's Reign are similar to situations that Christians have endured throughout the ages. Jesus said he did not come to take us out of the world, but keeps us in it during the time of our testimony.
Christians were warned that they would suffer the tribulations of this age, whether by the ravages of deprivation or by persecution. This is *not* evidence of "Divine Failure!" This is a very poor argument, therefore, and you should stop using it. In fact, all Pretribbers should stop using it.
God commends Christians who suffer persecution under the Beast in the book of Revelation. You turn that fact on its head, and in so doing corrupt the word of God.
I taught pre trib 30 years before I heard of Darby.
I saw it clearly in our Bibles.
Who is this man that the Christian left fears?
Is he a Trump kinda legend?
He is attacked, attacked...and has nothing to do with 1 Thes 4.
Huh?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Well, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the Christian Left nor with Trump!
And it shows that you don't know where your own beliefs come from. I'm certain they came from Darby, having been passed down to others who influenced your own thinking, even if you didn't realize it. The same thing happened to me. I wasn't raised a Pretribber. But I was taught Pretrib when I committed my life more fully to Christ and fell in with nothing but Pretribbers. I also thought that was what the Bible taught. But the theology was inconsistent and had no foundation in the Scriptures. I took me very short time to convert to Postrib after reading 2 Thes 2.
Clearly, I'm not trying to insult you. I had the same experience. Now, if you'll just do what I did, read 2 Thes 2 a dozen times or so without bias, you may find you convert to Postrib. All of the problems you've been told exist with Postrib will gradually melt away. And you may then dig into the history of Pretrib thought and find what I found--that Darby originated his Pretrib ideas, which were then passed down through many others.
Seriously.Well, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the Christian Left nor with Trump!
The same thing happened to me. I wasn't raised a Pretribber. But I was taught Pretrib when I committed my life more fully to Christ and fell in with nothing but Pretribbers. I also thought that was what the Bible taught. But the theology was inconsistent and had no foundation in the Scriptures. I took me very short time to convert to Postrib after reading 2 Thes 2.
Clearly, I'm not trying to insult you. I had the same experience. Now, if you'll just do what I did, read 2 Thes 2 a dozen times or so without bias, you may find you convert to Postrib. All of the problems you've been told exist with Postrib will gradually melt away. And you may then dig into the history of Pretrib thought and find what I found--that Darby originated his Pretrib ideas, which were then passed down through many others.
Who is this Darby fella you all fear and attack?
Did he invent all the pre trib doctrine that Paul and Jesus taught?
Did he invent the saying "....until he be taken out of the way..."?
Trib lovers seem to be obsessed with wanting to go through it.
Why is that anyway...are they playing Rambo or do they want to be martyrs someday for God?
I think they have no idea what they will face if the rapture does not happen prior to the GT, and their minds will not give them a mental description of it's terror, so they tell folks to become "preppers for Jesus".
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well as you reject teh Scriptures as written, there is no point in continuing this further.
YOu have been shown that there is a blessed first resurrection in REv. 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Then there is a second resurrection after the 1,000 years are over. If those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy, and the second death has no authority over them... What are the ones who take part in the second resurrection? they wold not be holy and blessed and teh 2nd death has authority over them! If you can't accept that, there is no point debating with you. If you cannot understand basic simple English grammar- how can you understand the Bible? God speaks in Words and uses the rules of grammar He created!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
If god is supposed to keep us in time of tribulation then He has failed miserably. Since teh birth of the church our brethren have been imprisoned, tortured and killed, beaten starved, and had to flee for their lives! How is that god keeping us in the time of our testimony???
Yes Jesus kept us in the world and protects us from the philosophy of the world, not suffering. What do you mean by Keeps us then?
But the rapture and the 70th week of Daniel are completely different time frames of human history. Teh 70th week is the last 7 years before Jesus returns to establish HIs kingdom.
God does not commend Christians, but saints! Saints are a generic term for all believers of all ages. All Christians are saints, but not all saints are Christians. Christians are the bride of Christ and we exist only from teh time of Pentecost until the rapture.
And this pre-tribber will continue to use it. for the Trib saints are not kept out of tribulation as promised in the letter to Philadelphia. They are jailed, slaughtered, hunted down throughout much of the Trib period!
But the church is promised by God in Thess. that we will be delivered from the wrath to come. That wrath is the 70th week of Daniel. And that deliverance is known as the rapture.
The wrath of the Lamb as said in REv. 6 is visited upon all men on the face of the earth and almost all 14 subsequent judgments fall upon everyone on the planet.
the two biblical reasons for the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel are to prepare the nation of Israel to receive Her Messiah as a nation and to punish the unbelievers for their unbelief! People get save during this time but are not the church!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
2 Cor 4.7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
This is how God keeps us, by keeping us alive long enough to make our lives a testimony of enduring in love, while we suffer an abusive world, with all of its problems. Job is an excellent example of this. Jesus is the epitome of it. We are not kept from suffering. We are kept through suffering. It challenges our love. But our love must prevail as a testimony to the reality of Christ's love, to its surpassing power.
Another subject. I have the historical view of the 70th Week of Daniel, the 70 Weeks ending with the "cutting off" of Christ, followed by the Abomination of Desolation in his generation--the Roman Army coming in to Jerusalem in 70 AD to destroy the temple.
Christians and Saints are synonyms, in my lexicon.
The Philadelphia church was privileged to escape some things that others may have had to go through. But they didn't escape through Rapture to Heaven! This all took place in John's time. Sometimes Christians are given to escape some events that are designed to punish sinners, and not the saints.
The meaning of words is determined by how they're being used in context. In context, Paul is talking about eternal punishment. Death in this age is not eternal punishment for the saints. We'll rise from the dead and obtain immortality. We will in this way escape God's wrath that is coming upon the rebellious.
God's wrath is upon all sin, period. It doesn't await the end of the age--we are in a world that is filled with God's anger. That's why men and women suffer in their work and in their lives. We can escape God's anger through repentance in the name of Christ. But being that we still live in the world, we still suffer the effects of God's wrath upon a rebellious, independent world.
That's Dispensationalism, and was not taught in the Church prior to 1830. When Jews get saved they're Christians like anybody else--even in the time of Antichrist's reign. Believe what you will--I'm just giving you my opinion. I'm glad we both know Christ and have escaped God's wrath in this world, even though we still suffer as we are kept here to be a testimony to God's love.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No Christian wants to face the reign of Antichrist. I think it will largely be confined to his own empire in Europe. Christians have no say so in the matter, just as the Early Church had no say so in their living under Roman control.
"Taken out of the way" is a difficult verse to interpret for many. But for 1800 years it was never applied in a Pretrib sense. I personally agree with the Church Fathers that it refers to the imperial tradition of Roman government, preventing the rise of Antichrist. According to Dan 7, Antichrist does not come to power until he overthrows 3 kings. So the current state of European government prevents the rise of Antichrist. It will be "taken out of the way" at the proper time.
John Darby can be looked at in an online encyclopedia. He's been dead a long time, so we know his teaching through those who have carried on his teaching. Dallas Theological Seminary in Texas is a big source of his teaching. The Calvary Chapels are another big source of his teaching. There were Prophecy Conferences early in the 20th century that delivered his teaching to many revival groups. It has seemed that every revived evangelical group has carried Pretrib teaching. But I believe that eventually, it will die out, because it has no foundation in the Scriptures. And it has zero historical depth. It is pure sensationalism, fit only for the movies and fiction novels.
Darby himself was apparently a godly man. But he got very angry when Christians disagreed with his Pretrib. This doesn't sit well with me. Christians need to exhibit the fruit of love even when brothers and sisters disagree with them.
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