Book Of Revelation, Some Thoughts

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
Disclaimer: These are some “amillennial” thoughts on the Book of Revelation. Warning, if you have some holy cows in your closet you may not want to read my thoughts. (I will not debate with you on a “yes it is” and a “no it isn’t”… this takes up to much of my time. I’ve heard most arguments and views of others since 1970).)


When John (through the Holy Spirit) writes the Revelation, he is talking to an audience who understands the symbols and phrases the Revelation uses. If we in the 21 century were to tell someone in the first century “that’s cool”… they would think you were cold. It’s a phrase we understand in this century. Likewise, we have troubles with some of the first century phrases and figures of speech.

We need to understand God’s phrases, “coming in clouds, last days, and the elements of the heavens such as the sun, moon and stars being used. For example many times you see the sun, moon and stars used such as Gen 37:9ff where Joseph had a dream and he told his dad that the stars bowed down to him etc. His dad rebuked him and said “shall I, thy mother and brothers come and bow down before thee?” Here the sun, moon & stars represent the headship of a family and family. In several other places in the bible we see where the sun, moon and stars fall from heaven to represent a government falling.

In Matthew 24 we see where Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that their nation is fixing to fall and Jesus uses the sun, moon and stars to represent the Jewish leaders. Jesus ends up in Matthew 24 telling the Jewish authorities that “all these things will come on this generation!” This was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when General Titus destroyed the Jewish economy.

In the Book of Revelation:

John begins his Revelation and in Rev 1:1 tells his audience “….these things MUST SHORTLY come to pass. And then in verse 3 (1:3), he says, “…the time IS AT HAND.”

John then tells the Revelation and ends the story by repeating himself, Rev 22:6 “…THESE THINGS MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS and Rev 22:10, “…don’t seal the sayings of this book FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.” (John said “don’t seal this book” & in Daniel (12:4), Daniel is told, “…seal this book …” Daniel’s prophecy took place 430 years later, but he was told to “seal the book.” John was told, “…don’t seal the book for the time is AT HAND.”)



Now there are those who will come back and say that “one day is as a thousand years to the Lord.” My answer to that is God is NOT talking to Himself, He is sending a message, a warning, to a group of people IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

The Book of Revelation is a book that warns the first century Christians about the coming beast, the Roman king, Domitian. (Vespasian, 69-79, is one of the beasts reigning at the time of the writing of Revelation. OOOOh I know, many will tell you that the Book of Revelation was written in 94/96 A.D. I don’t agree at all, neither does a group of scholars. I think the book was written somewhere around 69 A.D.)

Look at the seven heads. (Rev 17:9,10) The heads have a twofold significance: They stand for the seven hills and they stand for the seven kings.
I think these verses are the ‘key’ to understanding Revelation.

Who are these seven kings?

  • Augustus,
  • Tiberius,
  • Caligula (Gaius),
  • Claudius
  • Nero,
  • Vespasian and
  • Titus.

Revelation says five of the seven are fallen (Rev17:10). The five are: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero.

One, we are told “one is”,(Rev 17:10) that would be Vespasian. And another is not yet come – that would be Titus. And when he cometh, he must continue a little while. Titus ruled two years.

The whole picture is essentially taken from Daniel. In apocalyptic speech heads or horns may be used to stand for kings.

In Daniel, three of the kings are “uprooted” (Dan 7:24) and the eleventh king now becomes the eighth. John takes the vision from Daniel as he finds it – with three missing.

John speaks of an EIGHTH king. Does John speak of eight heads? YES, Rev 17:11.

This would be Domitian.



Kings in Daniel ---------- Kings in Revelation

1. Augustus ----------- 1. Augustus

2. Tiberius ----------- 2. Tiberius

3. Caligula ----------- 3. Caligula

4. Claudius ---------- 4. Claudius

5. Nero ----------- 5. Nero

6. Galba*

7. Otho*

8. Vitellus*

9. Vespasian ---------- 6. Vespasian

10. Titus ----------- 7. Titus

11. Domitian --------- 8. Domitian



* These kings were “uprooted.”


Who is the fourth beast of Daniel? Most everyone agrees it is Rome. If my parallel be correct, so is the beast of Revelation 13. We are encouraged in this view by the fact that the beast of Rev 13 is a composite creature, made up of the elements which composed Babylon, Medo-Persa, and Greece.

In Daniel, the order is lion, bear, and leopard (but then Daniel is looking into the future), and in Rev 13:2 it is leopard, bear, and lion, for John is looking backward in time. But, what has this to do with identifying the beast of Revelation 13? Daniel 7:12 makes the cryptical remark: “and as for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The “rest of the beasts” means the previous three beasts. They lost their dominion, but they didn’t lose their lives – their lives are prolonged for a while. How’s that? In the fourth kingdom, of course. The fourth beast embodied all their wickedness, and so described as being made up of them. Just as Daniel 2 the whole image remained until the fourth kingdom was smitten, so the three beasts lived on until the fourth beast was smitten.

John ignores the three kings because “they were uprooted” in Daniel. And these three, although they were recognized as emperors, were so quickly removed due to horrible civil war that they made no contribution to the Empire. All three of them passed away within the space of parts of two years.


The picture suggested here would mean Revelation was written in the days of Vespasian, since he would be the one who “one is” in Rev 17:10.


Note the persecution of which John speaks is going to come on the saints (Rev 11:7; 17:8). You must note that John says TWICE (Rev 17:8,11) that the beast “IS NOT.”


That says to me tht Rome was not persecuting the saints at the time of John was writing. In Rev 11:7, we read of the beast “coming up out of the abyss” to persecute the saints. In 17:8 we read that the beast “is about to come up out of the abyss.” Why does the beast come up out of the abyss? To persecute the saints, of course (11:7). The empire persecution is not yet going on while John is writing. Hear me, John said, “…the beast….IS NOT.”

My whole point here in writing what I’ve written is to show that the Book of Revelation took place in the first century. Also, I believe the “key” to understanding the Revelation is found in Rev 13 and 17.

In the Book of Revelation we see Rome go under in blood and fire and smoke. Rome in all her apocalyptic manifestations from the civil persecution sea beast to the religious pervert, the earth beast.. And the God of all power broils the sea beast; and the seductive power of a commercially successful Rome (Harlot) is set on fire by no man’s hand and burns like Nero’s fire never did – eternally and thoroughly.

(The “religious pervert” is emperor worship, not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church most likely fits in with the “great falling away” mentioned two times elsewhere in the N.T.)

The central thrust of the book is comfort and assurance of ultimate triumph. We see in this book that God and the Lamb rule --- NOT ITALY.



Your servant in Christ,

Charles Jemeyson

[email protected]

San Antonio, Texas





For those who enjoy “digging under rocks,” here are some ideas that I would like to share with you.




Sun, Moon, Stars and Clouds in prophecy:

a. We first see evidence of the definition of the sun, moon and

stars in Genesis 37 where we run across Joseph. At this time,

Joseph is a young man and is having dreams etc. He dreams

a dream and tells it to his father:

Genesis 37:9-10

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? KJV



Notice: Joseph dreams that the SUN, MOON AND STARS will

bow down to him.

-his father knows immediately knows what these
elements represent and rebukes Joseph.

-the sun, moon and stars represented the household of Jacob.

-the sun represented Jacob the father, the moon his mother

and the stars represented his brothers.



b. Later, this prophecy was fulfilled when Joseph was in Egypt and

in a high government position and his family did bow to him.

c. The sun represented the head of the house, a leader of the house.

d. Later, in scripture you may run across the sun, moon and stars mentioned. Take a good look at the context. If the context is speaking of a prophecy, then most likely the sun, moon and stars represent the government of that country.

For example: In Matthew 24:29 you see the sun, moon, stars and powers of the heavens spoken of. This is referring to the Jewish leaders at this time. It is speaking of the Sanhedrin, priests etc. Jesus is telling them that their nations is fixing to end.

This was fulfilled when the Lord “came on clouds” (Roman army) and destroyed the temple and city. Messiah told them when they see (Matt 24:15) the abomination of desolation (destruction) spoken of by the prophet Daniel then know the time is near. The synoptic parallel to Matt 24:15 is Luke 21:20 [sup]20 [/sup]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

So, Yahshua told them when you see the Roman army (Gentile army, an abomination) surrounding Jerusalem, then you will know the desolation (destruction) is near.


Isaiah 13:10

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. KJV


The Lord is speaking here in Isa 13:10 of the destruction of Babylon. He used an

army (clouds) to do His will.



Isaiah 19:1 [sup]KJV [/sup]Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Here again, In Isaiah 19ff the Lord is speaking of “riding a swift cloud” to destroy Egypt. An army fulfilled this. The point is, that the Lord, in prophetic speech, speaks of “coming in the clouds, or riding a swift cloud” when really He is speaking of using a nations army to destroy another nation.


Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: KJV

Here, in Matthew you see a reference to the fall of the Jewish nation. The sun,

moon and stars are made up of the Sanhedrin, that is, the high priests, scribes

(some Pharisees such as Nicodemus of John 3) and elders. These made up the

rulership of Israel at this time.

It has been referred to as the “last days, the last hour” in the New Testament and

happened in 70 A.D. when Titus, the Roman general, came and destroyed the

temple and Jerusalem.


Matthew 26:64

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. KJV

a. In Isaiah, it is evident that the prophet is talking about the conquest of

Egypt by an army that is doing the will of God.

b. In Matthew 26 Christ promised the high priest, Caiaphas, that he would

see him coming on the clouds. He saw this in the fulfillment of the

Roman army, doing the will of God, through Titus in 70 A.D.,

Luke 21:20

20 ‘‘When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that

its desolation is near. NIV

Luke records this period of time, and points to 70 AD. When Titus destroyed the

Temple and Jerusalem.


Like in Noah’s time, a new age was started. Jesus brought in a new age in which those that have been “born from above” (born again) have been added to the bride of Christ, the

Assembly (The church, Acts 2:47). Their names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and they enter into that great city as described by the Hebrew writer:

Hebrews 12:22-23 [sup]22[/sup] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [sup]23[/sup] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,



This city is made up of all those from the time of Adam until the present time – and is growing daily. PRAISE HIS NAME!!

Acts 2:20

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: KJV


These statements mean “the end of the world” to a premillennialist, but this is not what the bible is teaching. It is not the end of time (world), but the time of the end of the age. (Old Covenant age, the Jewish rule).



Mountains = Kingdoms



Jeremiah 51:24-26 [sup]24[/sup] And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith Jehovah. [sup]25[/sup] Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith Jehovah, which destroyest all the earth; and I will stretch out my hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [sup]26[/sup] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith Jehovah.



Here in Jeremiah 51 the defeat and destruction of Babylon is pictured by making a destroying mountain (apparently a volcano) into a “burnt-out” mountain. The term “MOUNTAIN” is used over and over again to stand for a kingdom, as for example, in Amos 4:1 and Isaiah 2:2.



 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Disclaimer: These are some “amillennial” thoughts on the Book of Revelation. Warning, if you have some holy cows in your closet you may not want to read my thoughts. (I will not debate with you on a “yes it is” and a “no it isn’t”… this takes up to much of my time. I’ve heard most arguments and views of others since 1970).)


No debate required when such snide attitude is presented. It speaks of its own vain character in regards to seeking the truth.


When John (through the Holy Spirit) writes the Revelation, he is talking to an audience who understands the symbols and phrases the Revelation uses. If we in the 21 century were to tell someone in the first century “that’s cool”… they would think you were cold. It’s a phrase we understand in this century. Likewise, we have troubles with some of the first century phrases and figures of speech.

Irrelevant, since much of the symbology of Revelation actually originates from other Books of The Bible. No matter how educated one might be with language and figures of speech, Revelation's meaning is lost without the guide of The Holy Spirit and the rest of God's Word.

We need to understand God’s phrases, “coming in clouds, last days, and the elements of the heavens such as the sun, moon and stars being used. For example many times you see the sun, moon and stars used such as Gen 37:9ff where Joseph had a dream and he told his dad that the stars bowed down to him etc. His dad rebuked him and said “shall I, thy mother and brothers come and bow down before thee?” Here the sun, moon & stars represent the headship of a family and family. In several other places in the bible we see where the sun, moon and stars fall from heaven to represent a government falling.

You've obviously missed the analogy of the usage of the sun, moon, and stars applied to Gen.37 and Israel vs. the events coming with the day of The LORD. With one the sun, moon, and stars is about a heavenly image pattern applied to Israel. But with the stars falling, the moon turning to blood, and the sun turns to darkness, that is given in relation to the day of Christ's return and the END OF THIS PRESENT WORLD, a literal end. Big difference between the two usages in God's Word.

In Matthew 24 we see where Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that their nation is fixing to fall and Jesus uses the sun, moon and stars to represent the Jewish leaders. Jesus ends up in Matthew 24 telling the Jewish authorities that “all these things will come on this generation!” This was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when General Titus destroyed the Jewish economy.

Jesus was speaking not about the generation of His first coming, but the generation that would see those seven signs coming to pass. The last sign He gave was His second coming, which is still expecting today. But of course, orthodox unbelieving Jews would tend to believe differently, especially the offspring living today of that generation of vipers He pointed to back in Matthew 23. So no, the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 did not come to pass in that generation of His first coming.


In the Book of Revelation:

John begins his Revelation and in Rev 1:1 tells his audience “….these things MUST SHORTLY come to pass. And then in verse 3 (1:3), he says, “…the time IS AT HAND.”

John then tells the Revelation and ends the story by repeating himself, Rev 22:6 “…THESE THINGS MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS and Rev 22:10, “…don’t seal the sayings of this book FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.” (John said “don’t seal this book” & in Daniel (12:4), Daniel is told, “…seal this book …” Daniel’s prophecy took place 430 years later, but he was told to “seal the book.” John was told, “…don’t seal the book for the time is AT HAND.”)

The seven signs Christ gave in Matt.24 are about the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials of Revelation. Those signs are to come to pass in the LAST generation of this present world, simply because those signs are to be present in the generation living at the time of His second coming. The false lie that those signs were fulfilled at the time of His first coming is a DIRECT lie against Holy Writ, simply because God's Word declares two separate comings of Christ.

Phrases like "at hand", "shortly come to pass" cannot be used to assume a second coming of Christ in the days of His Apostles. Those phrases are never a replacement for the greater detail of signs Christ gave to be watching for leading up to His return. Christ's Apostles showed they expected Christ's return, but did not say anywhere it was to happen in 'their' days. Instead, they referred to the end of this world. But whadda' ya' know, this world has not ended yet, but it will.


Now there are those who will come back and say that “one day is as a thousand years to the Lord.” My answer to that is God is NOT talking to Himself, He is sending a message, a warning, to a group of people IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

The Book of Revelation is a book that warns the first century Christians about the coming beast, the Roman king, Domitian. (Vespasian, 69-79, is one of the beasts reigning at the time of the writing of Revelation. OOOOh I know, many will tell you that the Book of Revelation was written in 94/96 A.D. I don’t agree at all, neither does a group of scholars. I think the book was written somewhere around 69 A.D.)

The signs for the end of this world Christ gave are for the end of this world. Time did not stop in the 1st century A.D., and nor did this world end as per God's Word. And nor did Christ's second coming happen then either.

Look at the seven heads. (Rev 17:9,10) The heads have a twofold significance: They stand for the seven hills and they stand for the seven kings.
I think these verses are the ‘key’ to understanding Revelation.

The seven heads of Rev.17 are not seven hills of Rome, nor of Jerusalem. They can represent kings though, but as "mountains" they represent powers over the earth, just as the beast Satan first rebelled with in Rev.12:3-4 also had "seven heads".

Who are these seven kings?
  • Augustus,
  • Tiberius,
  • Caligula (Gaius),
  • Claudius
  • Nero,
  • Vespasian and
  • Titus.

Revelation says five of the seven are fallen (Rev17:10). The five are: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero.

One, we are told “one is”,(Rev 17:10) that would be Vespasian. And another is not yet come – that would be Titus. And when he cometh, he must continue a little while. Titus ruled two years.


Not the right application per the Rev.17 example, for before Rome was, there were kingdoms of Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, Egypt, Macedonia, etc. The main one for the end of this world is Gog and Magog (Ezek.38).

The whole picture is essentially taken from Daniel. In apocalyptic speech heads or horns may be used to stand for kings.

In Daniel, three of the kings are “uprooted” (Dan 7:24) and the eleventh king now becomes the eighth. John takes the vision from Daniel as he finds it – with three missing.

John speaks of an EIGHTH king. Does John speak of eight heads? YES, Rev 17:11.

This would be Domitian.

The majority of Bible scholars agree that Domitian was in power when John was prisoner at Patmos, and that was around 96 A.D., not 69 A.D. The ruler of Rome in John's day (Domitian) would have to be the 6th in your analogy, not the eighth. So your whole analogy about Roman emperors being the 11 kings falls to the wayside.


Who is the fourth beast of Daniel? Most everyone agrees it is Rome. If my parallel be correct, so is the beast of Revelation 13. We are encouraged in this view by the fact that the beast of Rev 13 is a composite creature, made up of the elements which composed Babylon, Medo-Persa, and Greece.

The 4th beast of Daniel, the "legs of iron" is indeed pagan Rome. But there's a final piece of the statue image given as the feet of part iron and part clay, which is a 5th beast kingdom upon the earth in the last days (New World Order, "one world government").

Rev.13 declares TWO beasts. The first one in Rev.13:1 comes up out of the 'sea', and is about the joining of nations, peoples, multitudes, and tongues, a working that is happenning in today's world with the globalist movement towards "one world government" (their term, not mine). But the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is about the Antichrist, as he comes up out of the earth. That is Daniel's "little horn", "vile person", the "he" of Dan.9:27 that will make a league in Jerusalem to allow animal sacrifices again, and in the midst of the years made in the league, he will end those sacrifices and setup an image to the beast for all the world to worship.

In Daniel, the order is lion, bear, and leopard (but then Daniel is looking into the future), and in Rev 13:2 it is leopard, bear, and lion, for John is looking backward in time. But, what has this to do with identifying the beast of Revelation 13? Daniel 7:12 makes the cryptical remark: “and as for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The “rest of the beasts” means the previous three beasts. They lost their dominion, but they didn’t lose their lives – their lives are prolonged for a while. How’s that? In the fourth kingdom, of course. The fourth beast embodied all their wickedness, and so described as being made up of them. Just as Daniel 2 the whole image remained until the fourth kingdom was smitten, so the three beasts lived on until the fourth beast was smitten.

The rest of the beasts having their dominion taken away and prolonged for a season is about their reinstitution under the final Antichrist who will setup the 5th beast of ten toes of part iron mixed with part clay. That is for our near future, part of today's globalist working to join ALL nations together in a "one world government".

John ignores the three kings because “they were uprooted” in Daniel. And these three, although they were recognized as emperors, were so quickly removed due to horrible civil war that they made no contribution to the Empire. All three of them passed away within the space of parts of two years.

That's mere supposition unsupported by The Bible. It does not have to mean the three kings had all their power taken away, because Rev.17 reveals the ten kings receive power with the beast king, and rule with him for one hour. It is pointing to a change of structure only, not the end of the reign of those three kings. Subdue of Dan.7:24 means to humble. The beast will still have its ten horns.


The picture suggested here would mean Revelation was written in the days of Vespasian, since he would be the one who “one is” in Rev 17:10.


Note the persecution of which John speaks is going to come on the saints (Rev 11:7; 17:8). You must note that John says TWICE (Rev 17:8,11) that the beast “IS NOT.”


That says to me tht Rome was not persecuting the saints at the time of John was writing. In Rev 11:7, we read of the beast “coming up out of the abyss” to persecute the saints. In 17:8 we read that the beast “is about to come up out of the abyss.” Why does the beast come up out of the abyss? To persecute the saints, of course (11:7). The empire persecution is not yet going on while John is writing. Hear me, John said, “…the beast….IS NOT.”

More supposition on your part. No way to prove Vespian or any of the Roman rulers is that beast king of Rev.17, for we are told that beast king is associated the bottomless pit, i.e., Satan himself.

My whole point here in writing what I’ve written is to show that the Book of Revelation took place in the first century. Also, I believe the “key” to understanding the Revelation is found in Rev 13 and 17.

Believing that would mean turning an eye away from today's events happenning on this earth with the forming up of a final world beast system with globalists plan to join all nations into a "one world government." Even a little child can see that working on the earth today, which is what the Rev.13:1 beast sign is about.



In the Book of Revelation we see Rome go under in blood and fire and smoke. Rome in all her apocalyptic manifestations from the civil persecution sea beast to the religious pervert, the earth beast.. And the God of all power broils the sea beast; and the seductive power of a commercially successful Rome (Harlot) is set on fire by no man’s hand and burns like Nero’s fire never did – eternally and thoroughly.

(The “religious pervert” is emperor worship, not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church most likely fits in with the “great falling away” mentioned two times elsewhere in the N.T.)

The central thrust of the book is comfort and assurance of ultimate triumph. We see in this book that God and the Lamb rule --- NOT ITALY.

The Babylon harlot of Revelation is JERUSALEM, for that's where Christ pointed to about God's two witnesses in Rev.11:8. But of course, the Jews just don't like that thought spread around, do they?

Unbelieving Jews plan to build another temple in Jerusalem today. Globalists have already declared Jerusalem as "the international city of peace" back in the 1990's. The United Nations (a globalist one world government working) even controls Israel's borders in the holy land today. They have attempted a Peace Plan in Jerusalem many times, already showing us today that "league" of Dan.11 is just around the corner.

The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have ALREADY been doing passover animal sacrifices on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount for the last several years. The Sanhedrin has started up again in the last couple of years. The Temple materials are prepared, the priesthood is prepared, the impliments for sacrificial worship in the temple are prepared. The temple cloth and special dye is prepared. They're looking for a red heifer for purification. Now try to make that into a Preterist doctrine, would you?
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Disclaimer: These are some “amillennial” thoughts on the Book of Revelation. Warning, if you have some holy cows in your closet you may not want to read my thoughts. (I will not debate with you on a “yes it is” and a “no it isn’t”… this takes up to much of my time. I’ve heard most arguments and views of others since 1970).)


It clear from reading your post that you have a well rounded understanding.
A few points I would like to add, point out rather is that we can not ignore parts of scripture.
My disclaimer is I to listen to most arguments and sift the wheat from the chafe. In general I follow a progressive view of prophesy similar or rather foundationally in step with the reformers, with the benefit history since then.


When John (through the Holy Spirit) writes the Revelation, he is talking to an audience who understands the symbols and phrases the Revelation uses. If we in the 21 century were to tell someone in the first century “that’s cool”… they would think you were cold. It’s a phrase we understand in this century. Likewise, we have troubles with some of the first century phrases and figures of speech.

We need to understand God’s phrases, “coming in clouds, last days, and the elements of the heavens such as the sun, moon and stars being used. For example many times you see the sun, moon and stars used such as Gen 37:9ff where Joseph had a dream and he told his dad that the stars bowed down to him etc. His dad rebuked him and said “shall I, thy mother and brothers come and bow down before thee?” Here the sun, moon & stars represent the headship of a family and family. In several other places in the bible we see where the sun, moon and stars fall from heaven to represent a government falling.

I completely agree that the first mention of
sun, moon & stars is the birth of the Nation Israel, and also the woman or church for lack of a better word. In Rev 12 we see John using this indicator in what I believe to be an indicator of the birth of the Woman. It is acumpanyed with the Dragon and his relationship to his stars.

In Matthew 24 we see where Jesus is telling the Jewish leaders that their nation is fixing to fall and Jesus uses the sun, moon and stars to represent the Jewish leaders. Jesus ends up in Matthew 24 telling the Jewish authorities that “all these things will come on this generation!” This was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when General Titus destroyed the Jewish economy.

I believe the sun, moon and stars are the true believers, you can see why and when in Rev 12. Their are 2 points of time taking place, one the end of Jerusalem and the temple. And also the end of the age. They dont all run together in the past or the future.
See my links to previous post below.

In the Book of Revelation:

Some things I have already posted with veteran
http://www.christian...dpost__p__88562
http://www.christian...dpost__p__88767

This is Mathew 23 and 24
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89227

John then tells the Revelation and ends the story by repeating himself, Rev 22:6 “…THESE THINGS MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS and Rev 22:10, “…don’t seal the sayings of this book FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.” (John said “don’t seal this book” & in Daniel (12:4), Daniel is told, “…seal this book …” Daniel’s prophecy took place 430 years later, but he was told to “seal the book.” John was told, “…don’t seal the book for the time is AT HAND.”)

Now there are those who will come back and say that “one day is as a thousand years to the Lord.” My answer to that is God is NOT talking to Himself, He is sending a message, a warning, to a group of people IN THE FIRST CENTURY.


Agreed but it does contain the context that is yet to come. But it also contains the details of Jesus and the temple destroyed. The later, the destruction of the Temple I believe this marks the beginning of the great tribulation. That is still going on today gathering momentum.



Look at the seven heads. (Rev 17:9,10) The heads have a twofold significance: They stand for the seven hills and they stand for the seven kings.
I think these verses are the ‘key’ to understanding Revelation.

Who are these seven kings?

I agree it gas two meanings one spiritual and one the reality
The problem I see in your applying the kings to the Roman leaders is that it does not address a particular identifier of the 10 toes it does not address the never cleaving together, given in Danial's interpretation of the image.


[sup]40[/sup]And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

[sup]41[/sup]And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

[sup]42[/sup]And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

[sup]43[/sup]And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

[sup]44[/sup]And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


For me this indicates the fall of the Roman Empire that extended into Great Britain. The kings the 10 nations that were formed had kings that followed a type of blood line that continued until WWI when all of them were taken out of power for good. This European kingdom has never cleaved together under one leader since Rome. Napoleon tried but failed to reunite Europe under his leadership. As the prophesy says they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another.

That says to me tht Rome was not persecuting the saints at the time of John was writing. In Rev 11:7, we read of the beast “coming up out of the abyss” to persecute the saints. In 17:8 we read that the beast “is about to come up out of the abyss.” Why does the beast come up out of the abyss? To persecute the saints, of course (11:7). The empire persecution is not yet going on while John is writing. Hear me, John said, “…the beast….IS NOT.”

My whole point here in writing what I’ve written is to show that the Book of Revelation took place in the first century. Also, I believe the “key” to understanding the Revelation is found in Rev 13 and 17.

I prefer to point to Rev 12 as the evidence that the beast under Satan's power peruses the woman that gave birth to the child. For 1260 days my belief is that is 1260 years. This woman was given shelter in the wilderness but emerged during the reformation of the RCC in the 1500s. As I said we can not ignore one single point in these prophesy's. We have to account for every single identifier.

Most agree about Rome being the birth place of the finial beast, one point that most over look is the identifier found in several verse about this beast is that he is not displaced by human means. I'll give you one verse that points this out.

Dan 8:
[sup]19[/sup] And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. [sup]20[/sup] The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [sup]21[/sup] And the male goat is the kingdom[sup][b][/sup] of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. [sup]22[/sup] As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.
[sup]23[/sup] “ And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
[sup]24[/sup] His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; ...........an other identifier that this beast receives his power from Satan.
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[sup][c][/sup]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.....................This is important
[sup]26[/sup] “ And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.

There is only one vestige that has survived the fall of the Roman Empire that is the RCC.
But he shall be broken without human means.


As I said earlier Napoleon almost succeed in reuniting the old Roman Empire. Had he won the battle of Waterloo, he would have succeeded in making Danial's vision false, "but they shall not cleave together".

What he did do was, he sent his general to Rome and removed the Pope from the Vatican ending the successive line of Popes started in the time of Rome.

In 1796 French Republican troops under the command of Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Italy, defeated the papal troops and occupied Ancona and Loreto. Pius VI sued for peace, which was granted at Tolentino on 19 February, 1797; but on 28 December of that year, in a riot blamed by papal forces on some Italian and French revolutionists, the popular brigadier-general Mathurin-Léonard Duphot, who had gone to Rome with Joseph Bonaparte as part of the French embassy, was killed and a new pretext was furnished for invasion. General Berthier marched to Rome, entered it unopposed on 10 February, 1798, and, proclaiming a Roman Republic, demanded of the Pope the renunciation of his temporal authority.

Upon his refusal he was taken prisoner, and on February 20 was escorted from the Vatican to Siena, and thence to the Certosa near Florence. The French declaration of war against Tuscany led to his removal
(he was escorted by the Spaniard Pedro Gómez Labrador, Marquis of Labrador) by way of Parma, Piacenza, Turin and Grenoble to the citadel of Valence, the chief town of Drôme where he died six weeks after his arrival, on 29 August, 1799, having then reigned longer than any Pope (except possibly St Peter).

I believe that this ended the first beast rein, he was given power over the saints for 1260 days = years. in 538 the RCC was just ending the struggle to control the fractured fallen Roman Empire, the 10 kings, and three were no more. The RCC had firmly established its self as the single religious entity by force. The 7 kings all accepted the roll that the Vatican would play across Europe for the next 1000 years 1260 years ended in 1798, the beast had received a fatal wound but it has healed. "but he shall be broken without human means".

Here is my detailed view of Mathew 23 and 24 if your interested.
I point out that I believe Jesus pointed out both the destruction of the temple and the things that would happen at the end of the age.
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89227


 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Also I will for warned you that veteran, watchman, and others on this site have an interesting understanding of a time before the original account of creation found in Gen.
It involves a time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. This view has surfaced in debate with them and plays a large part in their interpretation of word of God.
Here is the link to the 3 earth ages.
http://www.christianityboard.com/forum/39-first-earth-age-and-the-three-earth-ages/
Christina = AKA veteran
 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
No debate required when such snide attitude is presented. It speaks of its own vain character in regards to seeking the truth.




Irrelevant, since much of the symbology of Revelation actually originates from other Books of The Bible. No matter how educated one might be with language and figures of speech, Revelation's meaning is lost without the guide of The Holy Spirit and the rest of God's Word.



You've obviously missed the analogy of the usage of the sun, moon, and stars applied to Gen.37 and Israel vs. the events coming with the day of The LORD. With one the sun, moon, and stars is about a heavenly image pattern applied to Israel. But with the stars falling, the moon turning to blood, and the sun turns to darkness, that is given in relation to the day of Christ's return and the END OF THIS PRESENT WORLD, a literal end. Big difference between the two usages in God's Word.



Jesus was speaking not about the generation of His first coming, but the generation that would see those seven signs coming to pass. The last sign He gave was His second coming, which is still expecting today. But of course, orthodox unbelieving Jews would tend to believe differently, especially the offspring living today of that generation of vipers He pointed to back in Matthew 23. So no, the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 did not come to pass in that generation of His first coming.




The seven signs Christ gave in Matt.24 are about the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials of Revelation. Those signs are to come to pass in the LAST generation of this present world, simply because those signs are to be present in the generation living at the time of His second coming. The false lie that those signs were fulfilled at the time of His first coming is a DIRECT lie against Holy Writ, simply because God's Word declares two separate comings of Christ.

Phrases like "at hand", "shortly come to pass" cannot be used to assume a second coming of Christ in the days of His Apostles. Those phrases are never a replacement for the greater detail of signs Christ gave to be watching for leading up to His return. Christ's Apostles showed they expected Christ's return, but did not say anywhere it was to happen in 'their' days. Instead, they referred to the end of this world. But whadda' ya' know, this world has not ended yet, but it will.




The signs for the end of this world Christ gave are for the end of this world. Time did not stop in the 1st century A.D., and nor did this world end as per God's Word. And nor did Christ's second coming happen then either.



The seven heads of Rev.17 are not seven hills of Rome, nor of Jerusalem. They can represent kings though, but as "mountains" they represent powers over the earth, just as the beast Satan first rebelled with in Rev.12:3-4 also had "seven heads".



Not the right application per the Rev.17 example, for before Rome was, there were kingdoms of Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, Egypt, Macedonia, etc. The main one for the end of this world is Gog and Magog (Ezek.38).



The majority of Bible scholars agree that Domitian was in power when John was prisoner at Patmos, and that was around 96 A.D., not 69 A.D. The ruler of Rome in John's day (Domitian) would have to be the 6th in your analogy, not the eighth. So your whole analogy about Roman emperors being the 11 kings falls to the wayside.




The 4th beast of Daniel, the "legs of iron" is indeed pagan Rome. But there's a final piece of the statue image given as the feet of part iron and part clay, which is a 5th beast kingdom upon the earth in the last days (New World Order, "one world government").

Rev.13 declares TWO beasts. The first one in Rev.13:1 comes up out of the 'sea', and is about the joining of nations, peoples, multitudes, and tongues, a working that is happenning in today's world with the globalist movement towards "one world government" (their term, not mine). But the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is about the Antichrist, as he comes up out of the earth. That is Daniel's "little horn", "vile person", the "he" of Dan.9:27 that will make a league in Jerusalem to allow animal sacrifices again, and in the midst of the years made in the league, he will end those sacrifices and setup an image to the beast for all the world to worship.



The rest of the beasts having their dominion taken away and prolonged for a season is about their reinstitution under the final Antichrist who will setup the 5th beast of ten toes of part iron mixed with part clay. That is for our near future, part of today's globalist working to join ALL nations together in a "one world government".



That's mere supposition unsupported by The Bible. It does not have to mean the three kings had all their power taken away, because Rev.17 reveals the ten kings receive power with the beast king, and rule with him for one hour. It is pointing to a change of structure only, not the end of the reign of those three kings. Subdue of Dan.7:24 means to humble. The beast will still have its ten horns.




More supposition on your part. No way to prove Vespian or any of the Roman rulers is that beast king of Rev.17, for we are told that beast king is associated the bottomless pit, i.e., Satan himself.



Believing that would mean turning an eye away from today's events happenning on this earth with the forming up of a final world beast system with globalists plan to join all nations into a "one world government." Even a little child can see that working on the earth today, which is what the Rev.13:1 beast sign is about.





The Babylon harlot of Revelation is JERUSALEM, for that's where Christ pointed to about God's two witnesses in Rev.11:8. But of course, the Jews just don't like that thought spread around, do they?

Unbelieving Jews plan to build another temple in Jerusalem today. Globalists have already declared Jerusalem as "the international city of peace" back in the 1990's. The United Nations (a globalist one world government working) even controls Israel's borders in the holy land today. They have attempted a Peace Plan in Jerusalem many times, already showing us today that "league" of Dan.11 is just around the corner.

The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have ALREADY been doing passover animal sacrifices on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount for the last several years. The Sanhedrin has started up again in the last couple of years. The Temple materials are prepared, the priesthood is prepared, the impliments for sacrificial worship in the temple are prepared. The temple cloth and special dye is prepared. They're looking for a red heifer for purification. Now try to make that into a Preterist doctrine, would you?[/b][/size]

Hey Vet:

This is a "typical argument" of a premillennialist. Been there, done it. Also, back in the early 1970's I was told the Jews were building their temple then??? There was even a picture floating around that showed a ship with supplies enrounte to Israel to rebuild the temple. Bermuda triangle?

By the way, are you the one who wrote "88 Reasons the Rapture will Be in 1988"? Loved that book, still have it (among others) in my library.

I said, I won't argue with you on this.

I presented my views and I believe they are correct.

Your servant in Messiah,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Also I will for warned you that veteran, watchman, and others on this site have an interesting understanding of a time before the original account of creation found in Gen.
It involves a time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. This view has surfaced in debate with them and plays a large part in their interpretation of word of God.
Here is the link to the 3 earth ages.
http://www.christian...ree-earth-ages/
Christina = AKA veteran


No, my name is not Christina, for the administrators would easily catch someone with two alias' posting on this forum.

And yes, I do believe there was a huge gap of time between Gen.1:1 and 1;2, just as many pastors and ministers of various Christian denominations likewise do, including quite a few Christian scholars.

But one thing a lot of those like myself don't do, is follow the teachings of a flesh woman named Elen White who instituted doctrines for the SDA Church, and also miserably failed in her 1800's date prediction for Christ's second coming. I say that while I also like some of what she wrote too!

So, are both you and Charlesj SDA members, because it sounds a lot like it?
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Hey Vet:

This is a "typical argument" of a premillennialist. Been there, done it. Also, back in the early 1970's I was told the Jews were building their temple then??? There was even a picture floating around that showed a ship with supplies enrounte to Israel to rebuild the temple. Bermuda triangle?

And yours is a "typical false doctrine" pushed under the label of Preterism and Historicism, with an SDA twist. How many brethren have been fooled today just by those seminary position labels, just because events do exist in God's Word that can be traced back in history? It's better to not latch onto doctrines of men, and let God's Word declaration of past, present, and future come forth.

Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful. You ought to do research on that, instead of just putting a vail over your eyes. As for the movement towards a final beast kingdom today with a "one world government", you've already been shown many signs for that already. The forming of the EU is a major one. Jerome Corsi through his petition for information under the Freedom of Information Act also has shown the planning structure by a shadow government within the U.S. for a proposed North American Union also. Might want to look into that. And then there's the Trilateral Commission working since the early 1970's. Carrol Quigley's workd Tragedy And Hope also reveals the movement for a one world government under the working of a globalist think-tank that is connected between Britain and the U.S. The evidence has been out there for a long time now, even with Woodrow Wilson's mention of the term "New World Order" back in the early 1900's. But if you want to stay blind to all that, that's up to you. But those you've been listening to aren't going to tell you about all that, but instead keep you focused upon the RCC and history, so that the present simply passes you by.

By the way, are you the one who wrote "88 Reasons the Rapture will Be in 1988"? Loved that book, still have it (among others) in my library.

Now you're being silly. I think that must have been by a student of SDA who wrote that, since Ellen White did the same kind of prediction that failed.


I said, I won't argue with you on this.

I presented my views and I believe they are correct.

I'm not looking to argue either. But God's Word shows many holes in your views. And if you weren't looking for a debate, you sure picked the wrong place to post your disclaimer.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
No, my name is not Christina, for the administrators would easily catch someone with two alias' posting on this forum.

My mistake then, but I have seen others address you as Christina. Your belief in the earth ages lead me to presume you were one in the same.
You do have a similar type of expressing yourself.
Here is one of Cristina's last post in the locked thread the 3 earth ages. I have conversed with you enought to say its very similar.

Belive what you like but its not Gods Word ... Its mens .... Until you are really interested in hearing God over men this is a pointless dicussion.. That confines Gods Word and his power to the small human mind ... .Your so busy putting your own intrrptation on what we are showing to you. You can not see past your flesh mind ...You will see when he comes he foreknew you and there was a 1st age before ... You say totally irrevent things in your argument we never said ..its just your human ideas an conclusions .. because you close your ears and eyes ...


And yes, I do believe there was a huge gap of time between Gen.1:1 and 1;2, just as many pastors and ministers of various Christian denominations likewise do, including quite a few Christian scholars.

But one thing a lot of those like myself don't do, is follow the teachings of a flesh woman named Elen White who instituted doctrines for the SDA Church, and also miserably failed in her 1800's date prediction for Christ's second coming. I say that while I also like some of what she wrote too!

I don't hide or deny the fact that I find much of the SDA interpretation of Rev and Danial right. As for Elen White I don't pay a bit of attention to her or her writing. She did not lead the SDA into the false prediction called "The Great Disappointment " but she took leadership after it happened. I take the truth where I find it, as a matter of fact I found this site looking for Christian veiws and information about the great pyramid, simply fascinating. But Im very careful about introduce it into my faith, it has to be researched and pass scriptural testing. The prophesy teaching of the great pyramid was the first foundation of the JW. Charles Taze Russell was the founder. The GP prophesy interpretation is what lead to failed predictions of Christ return. Later after the death of Russel the JW was taken over by the group today. Those that still follow Russell's teachings are called The Bible Students. They have a lot of fascinating information drawing modern science and scripture together. The Mormans are simply out in left field as far as Im concerned and have never offered anything that interested me to study. Joseph Smith was a fraud and there is court evidence to prove it before he even founded the LDS. Of course we have Darby in the mix as well. That's one reason why the 1800s was called the age of enlightenment.

Now as I noted before all these things and more happened in the 1800s, after 1798 when the Pope was removed from office, the Vatican lost its grip on the kings of Europe. After the carnage WWI not one of these blue blood kings was left an a throne, except one the throne of Great Britain. Which runs a nice parallel with the lost tribes. Something else I keep slightly seperate from my foundation, but I watch and listen looking for more clues. When God losses something its probably not going to found until He goes looking for it. But the bread crumbs lead to some grand revelations in the future don't they.

My point in rambling on about such things is Im not against looking into them. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water because someone said something as stupid as predicting the return date of Christ. These were smart men bible literate they knew the verse, no man know the day of the Lord. But yet they were compelled to set one anyway.
Now they did not pull a Jim Jones or Branch Davidian and I would venture to say everyone of us and anyone else that has studied and shared the scriptures with others have made mistakes worthy of being called a false prophet. I don't believe there is anyone yet that completely understands the full prophesy of Revelation. Yet men write books doing just that. Satan has stumbled many a man in his day, I don't presume to be immune, but I do stay vigilant, and with great care accepting doctrine that has shaped me today. Every church I have been in or listened to all say stay away from the JW , SDA, LDS ect ect ect they are false prophets. To know the truth as I understand it today, I could not have done by sitting in a single denominational church. The moral of this story stick with what you know until the Lord tells you to take another step up and come closer. Fear and trembling I tell you. I have been told to move and yet I press for more evidence fear and trembling.

So, are both you and Charlesj SDA members, because it sounds a lot like it?

Well I'm not, and I can say that I have only been in one SDA church. I found a large local one and happened to go on a day they were having a foot washing after the service. They had lost their pastier, they had a temporary one, I was was very uninspired with the teaching as I am in many churches today. I like radio ministries. After the service and foot washing I joined them for lunch upstairs, the elder that was with me, his family and friends were very nice and I discussed the SDA church and what I found to be its short cummings that I had read about. Like having to accept Whites teaching to become a member, the strict policy to dietary laws ect. I did compliment them on the members that I had read, and the grasp they had on Revelation and scripture in general. They are no different than any other church group today some are truly born of the Spirit and most are not, the latter would rather sit and talk about the football game.

The Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Philippi, for whom he had a very special tenderness, encouraging them to "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." (Philippians 2:12).

If you have walked this road like I have you understand what Paul means by fear and trembling. Im very careful about what I put in my mind as the interpretative Word of God. I have learned that what appears to be a very small liberty in interpretation can spoil the whole truth. Coming to forums like this is Spiritual exercise for me. The Lord has reveled things to me on this forum debating with you veteran, that makes me stronger, more convicted to what I hold as the truth, and more knowledgeable in scripture.. ..In that I praise the Lord. We are all still learning, If you ever forget that I guarantee you the Lord will humble you. If you keep your pride "yourself" in check when your being lead and lifted by the Spirit surly you can say to this mountain be thrown into the sea and it shall be.
 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
And yours is a "typical false doctrine" pushed under the label of Preterism and Historicism, with an SDA twist. How many brethren have been fooled today just by those seminary position labels, just because events do exist in God's Word that can be traced back in history? It's better to not latch onto doctrines of men, and let God's Word declaration of past, present, and future come forth.

Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful. You ought to do research on that, instead of just putting a vail over your eyes. As for the movement towards a final beast kingdom today with a "one world government", you've already been shown many signs for that already. The forming of the EU is a major one. Jerome Corsi through his petition for information under the Freedom of Information Act also has shown the planning structure by a shadow government within the U.S. for a proposed North American Union also. Might want to look into that. And then there's the Trilateral Commission working since the early 1970's. Carrol Quigley's workd Tragedy And Hope also reveals the movement for a one world government under the working of a globalist think-tank that is connected between Britain and the U.S. The evidence has been out there for a long time now, even with Woodrow Wilson's mention of the term "New World Order" back in the early 1900's. But if you want to stay blind to all that, that's up to you. But those you've been listening to aren't going to tell you about all that, but instead keep you focused upon the RCC and history, so that the present simply passes you by.



Now you're being silly. I think that must have been by a student of SDA who wrote that, since Ellen White did the same kind of prediction that failed.




I'm not looking to argue either. But God's Word shows many holes in your views. And if you weren't looking for a debate, you sure picked the wrong place to post your disclaimer.

Hey Vet:

No, I'm not SDA.... nor have ever been nor do want to be.
E.G. White was a false propeht and so are most of the SDA doctrines. By the way, the SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, most denominations are premillennialists. You guys have a lot in common in eschatology.
I do think the SDA is more radical.

I am a Christian and I meet in a local assembly with others who call themselves Christian. We are not CAtholic, Protestant, Mormon, JW, or any of the above, just Christian. We have a minister, elders, deacons and an assembly of believers.

Calm down. LOL

Your servant in Messiah,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Texas
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
A quick question Charlesj. How do you deal with the times times and half times in prophesy?

Rev 12 and 13
day = year definition of time used in Danial, and outlined in Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6,

The Book of Revelation is a book that warns the first century Christians about the coming beast, the Roman king, Domitian. (Vespasian, 69-79, is one of the beasts reigning at the time of the writing of Revelation. OOOOh I know, many will tell you that the Book of Revelation was written in 94/96 A.D. I don’t agree at all, neither does a group of scholars. I think the book was written somewhere around 69 A.D.)

 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
A quick question Charlesj. How do you deal with the times times and half times in prophesy?

Rev 12 and 13
day = year definition of time used in Danial, and outlined in Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6,


[/b][/b][/b]



Bud:

Let me back up a little on your question. Lets take a look at Rev 11 around verse 2ff.

Here in verse two you see the holy city treaded under foot for forty and two months. What is this 42 months? It is the same as 1260 days! The Jew worked on a 360 day year. (He added an intercalary moth – 2[sup]nd[/sup] Adhar – periodically, to bring his calendar in line with solar years.) 1260 days = 42 months. Both of these (1260 days & 42 months) are equivalent to “time, times and half a time.” This can be seen in chapter 12:6,14 where 1260 days is interchangeable with “time, times and half a time.”

So, what does this mean? It is a time figure. It is what the “1,000 years” of Revelation 20 is – a period of time, used to speak of a state of affairs! Look at the passages in which the phrase or its equivalents occur:

  • It is the period of the beast’s authority – Rev 13:5
  • it is the period of the holy city being trodden under foot – Rev 11:2
  • it is the period during which the witnesses prophesy – Rev 11:3
  • it is the period the Woman is nourished in the wilderness –- Rev 12:6,14
  • It is the period the “little horn” persecutes the saints – Daniel 7:25


What does this period signify? It speaks of the state of affairs wherein the saints are subjected to persecution, but are protected; wherein they are subjected to suffering, but are sustained; wherein they are victimized, but are victorious!

The two thoughts are ever present. In Dan 7:25 we hear the little lhorn has power over the saints for “time, times, and half a time.” The judgment shall be set and the little horn will get what’s coming to him, says Daniel.



In the case of the Woman, she is forced to flee into the wilderness which speaks of itself of hardship, for a wilderness is not soft-cushioned palace. But, she is “nourished” there! There, right in the place of her hardship, she is nourished. (Is there a lesson here for us today?)



In the case of the two witnesses, though they are in sackcloth (which indicates hardship – occasion of mourning) they cannot be stopped in their preaching for the Lord is with them to sustain them (in the vision) miraculous abilities.



In the case of the holy city – the citadel of it is untaken despite the abuse of the outer limits. And why does it remain untaken? Because God would have it so! Why must the witnesses wear sackcloth? The woman – why must she flee? The city – why must it be trodden under? Because God would have it so! Why is the beast given authority to continue 42 months? Because God wants it so!



What is the origin of the figure? You’ll notice tht the woman is forced to flee into the wilderness but is nourished there – we have hardship but nourishment for the period of 3 ½ years. In the days of Elijah, the prophet was nourished during the period of hardship (1 Kings 17:1-5/ James 5:17; Luke 4:25). There is the origin of it.



In addition, 3 ½ is a broken seven. Seven speaks of the completeness of a thing, its fullness, and perfection. The authority of the beast lacks all of it. The hard times are transient in nature





I know you asked about the 3 ½ years in prophecy. I know I wrote a lot to answer a short question. (My wife always tells me that I "ramble" alot.)

Hope you have a great day.
May the Lord be with you,

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus the Christ,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Tx

 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
If this took place in the time frame you have given then you should not have a problem pointing out exactly where these pieces of time took place.
It is clear you will use a day for a day but just where do you see them being fulfilled?



So, what does this mean? It is a time figure. It is what the “1,000 years” of Revelation 20 is – a period of time, used to speak of a state of affairs! Look at the passages in which the phrase or its equivalents occur:

I'm capable of reading scripture and understanding what they speak of.

Im asking you to identify the past fulfillment of them.
 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
If this took place in the time frame you have given then you should not have a problem pointing out exactly where these pieces of time took place.
It is clear you will use a day for a day but just where do you see them being fulfilled?



So, what does this mean? It is a time figure. It is what the “1,000 years” of Revelation 20 is – a period of time, used to speak of a state of affairs! Look at the passages in which the phrase or its equivalents occur:

I'm capable of reading scripture and understanding what they speak of.

Im asking you to identify the past fulfillment of them.


Bud:

I am assuming you are being honest in your questions.



When I posted this, I just gave “some thoughts” on the Book of Revelation and the main point I wanted to bring out was the date of the writing of the book and that was during the reign of Vespasian (69-79 A.D.) I also brought out the beginning and ending statements of John, “this must take place shortly & …the time is at hand.” John encloses the Revelation with these statements. He starts with “… it must take place shortly…the time is near” and then gives the revelation… and ends with “..this must take place shortly… the time is at hand.” (Rev 1:1,3 & 22:6, 10)



The time frame of this to take place was the fall of Rome and its power over the church.



The Rev 20 thing of the 1000 years speaks of the Devil said to be bound for this period of time (1000 years).
Why was the Devil bound for 1000 years? To indicate he is perfectly and totally defeated in reference to his use of Rome against the Lord and His Church.
Why is he loosed a “little time?” Because after Rome, there will be others to oppose the Church and that “little time” is the way the future efforts of Satan are covered.
To whom was judgment given? To those who sat on the thrones and who represented the saints who lived to see Rome go under.
What are those who died in faith to Jesus? They are presented as experiencing a resurrection to thrones along with their brothers.
Why is the reign said to be a “thousand years”? To portray its perfectness and completeness. (Like the number 7)
Why is their resurrection designated as the “first”? To differentiate it from the next one he sees – the “second.”
Who are the “rest of the dead”? Those who didn’t die for Jesus, but in the service of the beast.
Why don’t they live again during the “thousand years”? Because that’s an experience only for the triumphant saints – victors over Satan and Rome.
What do they endure? They endure a thousand years of death while the saints reign and then they’re resurrected to die a second time.
What does the second death symbolize? Utter, irrevocable defeat!

May the Lord be with you,
Your servant in Messiah,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Tx

"Knowledge gained and not shared is knowledge stolen"


 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
I am a Christian and I meet in a local assembly with others who call themselves Christian. We are not CAtholic, Protestant, Mormon, JW, or any of the above, just Christian. We have a minister, elders, deacons and an assembly of believers.

Based your treating much of God's Word in a mystical sense sounds like a mixture of Emmanuel Swedenborg, Jacob Boheme, and Gnostic doctrine. I'm not against the idea of the independent Church, but that's some of what you get if you aren't careful.
 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
Based your treating much of God's Word in a mystical sense sounds like a mixture of Emmanuel Swedenborg, Jacob Boheme, and Gnostic doctrine. I'm not against the idea of the independent Church, but that's some of what you get if you aren't careful.




Hey Vet:



The reason you are alarmed at how I see the Book of Revelation is because you are a premillennialist. Premils take prophecy literally.

That is really a problem you will have to see for yourself.



I can say in 1975 when I first heard the amillennial teaching on this book I couldn’t understand why they didn’t take it literally. The reason I changed my views (from premill to amill) is because the literal interpretation is not correct.



I can remember around the end of 1969 or 1970 I was given a 45 RPM record with Kenneth Copeland speaking on the end time. WOW, that really scared me as he had Russia attacking Israel etc. etc. I really thought all those things he was saying were fixing to happen. I can remember telling everybody I met about Jesus coming and the end of the world. He started the record with, “I don’t want to scare you, BUT…” and then he went into the premillennial story.

Copeland sold a lot of 45 RPM’s. Walvoord & Hal Lindsey (was a student of Walvoord), Ryrie and others have sold tons of books on this subject. I must have most of their books in my library.



Your servant in the Lord,

Charles Jemeyson

[email protected]

San Antonio, Texas


"Lets do the best we can and Jesus will make up the difference."


 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Bud:

I am assuming you are being honest in your questions.



When I posted this, I just gave “some thoughts” on the Book of Revelation and the main point I wanted to bring out was the date of the writing of the book and that was during the reign of Vespasian (69-79 A.D.) I also brought out the beginning and ending statements of John, “this must take place shortly & …the time is at hand.” John encloses the Revelation with these statements. He starts with “… it must take place shortly…the time is near” and then gives the revelation… and ends with “..this must take place shortly… the time is at hand.” (Rev 1:1,3 & 22:6, 10)



The time frame of this to take place was the fall of Rome and its power over the church.



The Rev 20 thing of the 1000 years speaks of the Devil said to be bound for this period of time (1000 years).
Why was the Devil bound for 1000 years? To indicate he is perfectly and totally defeated in reference to his use of Rome against the Lord and His Church.
Why is he loosed a “little time?” Because after Rome, there will be others to oppose the Church and that “little time” is the way the future efforts of Satan are covered.
To whom was judgment given? To those who sat on the thrones and who represented the saints who lived to see Rome go under.
What are those who died in faith to Jesus? They are presented as experiencing a resurrection to thrones along with their brothers.
Why is the reign said to be a “thousand years”? To portray its perfectness and completeness. (Like the number 7)
Why is their resurrection designated as the “first”? To differentiate it from the next one he sees – the “second.”
Who are the “rest of the dead”? Those who didn’t die for Jesus, but in the service of the beast.
Why don’t they live again during the “thousand years”? Because that’s an experience only for the triumphant saints – victors over Satan and Rome.
What do they endure? They endure a thousand years of death while the saints reign and then they’re resurrected to die a second time.
What does the second death symbolize? Utter, irrevocable defeat!

May the Lord be with you,
Your servant in Messiah,
Charles Jemeyson
[email protected]
San Antonio, Tx

"Knowledge gained and not shared is knowledge stolen"

All well and good,
Thank You.
You have presented food for thought, my grandfather used to tell me you can learn something from anyone.
Someone with your intellect that will not be a problem.

"Knowledge gained and not shared is knowledge stolen"
 

charlesj

Member
Sep 13, 2010
201
14
18
84
San Antonio, Texas
All well and good,
Thank You.
You have presented food for thought, my grandfather used to tell me you can learn something from anyone.
Someone with your intellect that will not be a problem.

"Knowledge gained and not shared is knowledge stolen"

Bud02:
Your grandfather was probably a good man. Thank you.

May the Lord be with you (and us all).

Your servant in Christ,
Charles Jemeyson
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA


Hey Vet:


The reason you are alarmed at how I see the Book of Revelation is because you are a premillennialist. Premils take prophecy literally.

That is really a problem you will have to see for yourself.



That's not the reason your mystical interpretations alarm me. It's your apparent overuse of 'symbolism' APPLIED to God's Word, instead of allowing God's Word to show you what is symbolic, and what is literal. Your interpretations reveal an acceptance of something else first, before it was time for God to reveal His Word to you.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
My mistake then, but I have seen others address you as Christina. Your belief in the earth ages lead me to presume you were one in the same.
You do have a similar type of expressing yourself.
Here is one of Cristina's last post in the locked thread the 3 earth ages. I have conversed with you enought to say its very similar.

No problem. I don't know Cristina; I don't even think we've even conversed here yet.

And yes, I do believe in the idea there was a previous world that existed before Gen.1:2; Bible scholars have called that a 'gap theory'. I know many pastors and ministers that see it. Others before me also noted it. I once asked a pastor about it at a hospital, because I wanted to know if others also might be aware of it, and he said in private no man showed that to him, but that God showed it to him. I still... had to decide for myself whether to accept it as God's Truth or not. The more I studied, the more it kept showing up, likewise with the ten tribes message. I've even met some that said they knew about it since they were a little child. But I still had to see it for myself and have more Bible witnesses. Only when God began to reveal it to me through my Bible study, did I even begin to search for others that might know something about it. And it was then that I discovered many that had known about it, and that quite a number of Bible scholars of history had written something about it. So it was not just some idea that popped into my head that I immediately told myself, "that's it! Eureka!". In other words, I didn't just accept it because others did. It had to be God's Word speaking, and not man.

What does that reveal? It reveals that IF we study God's Word His way (like the example He gave in Isaiah 28), and pray earnestly for His help in it, and... we have prepared ourselves, then He will show us deeper Truths in His Word. We will not have to ask man for it. He will show us. And, it reveals when others also... do the same, He will show them too. For His Word is of no private interpretation, as written.

Our being prepared also includes the time when we are ready for It. I had tried to read and understand His Word often in my younger years, before I was baptized in Christ. It remained closed off. Not until I actually made a committment to Him with my heart and mind and soul, did He 'hit' me by The Holy Spirit. And then, the 'urge' to study deeply and often drove in me like a literal fire. I'm certain others here have had this similar kind of experience. It just so happened that by that time, I was well travelled in many countries, had matured quite a bit, and had developed a strong habit of study through university study. I had not been conditioned by many years of men's traditions in any one Church denomination. I have always seen denominationalism as a type of trap, even though I feel as a Christian believer I should be able to go into any Church that preaches God's Word.


I don't hide or deny the fact that I find much of the SDA interpretation of Rev and Danial right. As for Elen White I don't pay a bit of attention to her or her writing. She did not lead the SDA into the false prediction called "The Great Disappointment " but she took leadership after it happened. I take the truth where I find it, as a matter of fact I found this site looking for Christian veiws and information about the great pyramid, simply fascinating. But Im very careful about introduce it into my faith, it has to be researched and pass scriptural testing. The prophesy teaching of the great pyramid was the first foundation of the JW. Charles Taze Russell was the founder. The GP prophesy interpretation is what lead to failed predictions of Christ return. Later after the death of Russel the JW was taken over by the group today. Those that still follow Russell's teachings are called The Bible Students. They have a lot of fascinating information drawing modern science and scripture together. The Mormans are simply out in left field as far as Im concerned and have never offered anything that interested me to study. Joseph Smith was a fraud and there is court evidence to prove it before he even founded the LDS. Of course we have Darby in the mix as well. That's one reason why the 1800s was called the age of enlightenment.

I don't disagree with everything SDA believes either. I do disagree quite of bit with JW teaching though, and the others. But I condemn no one. That's not up to us. Yet discerning doctrine is different.

Now as I noted before all these things and more happened in the 1800s, after 1798 when the Pope was removed from office, the Vatican lost its grip on the kings of Europe. After the carnage WWI not one of these blue blood kings was left an a throne, except one the throne of Great Britain. Which runs a nice parallel with the lost tribes. Something else I keep slightly seperate from my foundation, but I watch and listen looking for more clues. When God losses something its probably not going to found until He goes looking for it. But the bread crumbs lead to some grand revelations in the future don't they.

In reality though, the Vaitcan did not actually have a real grip on the royal families of Europe. Many of the royal monarchs went into exile, and were re-united to their thrones after the war, even as it is today after the Berlin Wall came down in the '90's (Romania I think). The worst blow to Christian Europe was not in 1798, it was right after WWII with the conference to divide up Europe. Many Christian nations in Europe under Stalin became communist over-night.


My point in rambling on about such things is Im not against looking into them. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water because someone said something as stupid as predicting the return date of Christ. These were smart men bible literate they knew the verse, no man know the day of the Lord. But yet they were compelled to set one anyway.

Yeah, and now they treat the end time prophecies as if most of it is past, joining in with the seminary doctrines of men.


Now they did not pull a Jim Jones or Branch Davidian and I would venture to say everyone of us and anyone else that has studied and shared the scriptures with others have made mistakes worthy of being called a false prophet. I don't believe there is anyone yet that completely understands the full prophesy of Revelation. Yet men write books doing just that. Satan has stumbled many a man in his day, I don't presume to be immune, but I do stay vigilant, and with great care accepting doctrine that has shaped me today. Every church I have been in or listened to all say stay away from the JW , SDA, LDS ect ect ect they are false prophets. To know the truth as I understand it today, I could not have done by sitting in a single denominational church. The moral of this story stick with what you know until the Lord tells you to take another step up and come closer. Fear and trembling I tell you. I have been told to move and yet I press for more evidence fear and trembling.

I can agree with that. But I can't agree with doctrines of men that treat Bible prophecy that has never come to pass as if it already has. And I say that while recognizing the concept of no new thing under the sun, with "ensamples" of prophecies that are fulfilled in stages until all parameters given are complete. I'm simply not willing to say the fat lady has sung until everything God said would happen in a prophecy, actually has.


The Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Philippi, for whom he had a very special tenderness, encouraging them to "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." (Philippians 2:12).

If you have walked this road like I have you understand what Paul means by fear and trembling. Im very careful about what I put in my mind as the interpretative Word of God. I have learned that what appears to be a very small liberty in interpretation can spoil the whole truth. Coming to forums like this is Spiritual exercise for me. The Lord has reveled things to me on this forum debating with you veteran, that makes me stronger, more convicted to what I hold as the truth, and more knowledgeable in scripture.. ..In that I praise the Lord. We are all still learning, If you ever forget that I guarantee you the Lord will humble you. If you keep your pride "yourself" in check when your being lead and lifted by the Spirit surly you can say to this mountain be thrown into the sea and it shall be.

I agree, and He does humble me when I need it, which is probably every day since I know I'm not perfect. My appeal is not to doctrines of men, not to what man says, but what God says in His Word, and to common sense within His Word. I simply don't think God's Word is as difficult to understand as some make it. There's good Bible study tools, and bad Bible study tools, which I think is a major problem for today. There also are too many that go preach with the idea like it's a business. Our Lord didn't call those; they're hirelings. They must preach what the seminaries teach them, for that's all they know. And we were specifically warned about that kind of working for the last days (Ezek.13). Notice I point to an OT Book of God's prophets when I say that.
 

AServantofJC

New Member
May 13, 2013
35
1
0
Greetings charlesj and all others,

My appreciations to you for beginning this thread.

For whomever it might help along their way, this is what I believe.

Revelation was written before 70 AD

A narrative by a “Tentmaker” with the help of friends

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

1 - The time statement in Revelation 1:1 refers to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.

2 - The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

3 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman emperors are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while . . Galba, 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.

4 - The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.

5 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this!

6 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about “soon” events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the “soon” future of 96 AD.

7 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing, thus proving not necessarily the pre-70 AD writing, but definitely the "at hand" time statements of the book.

8 - The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11:1, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD.

9 - If John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!!!

10 - According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This would be ridiculous after the diaspora of 70 AD.

11 - There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.

12 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.



[Editor's Note: Although any scriptural writings of men, or especially these narrative points 1 to 12, could unwittingly be subtly fallible unless the Holy Spirit would guide a disciple unto the whole truth, every disciple of Jesus should seek to discern infallible doctrines from God via their fruitfulness in building up Jesus' Kingdom. This editor would propose that Revelation was written to encourage an exodus from Mystery Babylon, similar to Nahum's writings that encouraged godly Jews to flee Nineva prior to it being overrun by Babylon, and Jesus' teachings from The Book of Daniel that encouraged Christians to flee Jerusalem prior to its holocaust in 70 AD. When Revelation was written during Nero's reign it encouraged an exodus from both Jerusalem and Rome since they both have seven hills and both had a history of martyring God's prophets. As written in Mark 14:62, until Jesus would reveal His power in the clouds and 1Corinthians 13:10 would become fulfilled, Revelation encourages believers to flee from all Mystery Babylons and all of its idolatrous and materialistic religious systems, and from its fruit destroying doctrines-of-men and its blasphemous teachings that promote an opposite view of the truth concerning our Heavenly Father's sacrificially loving and Holy efforts in behalf of all of mankind. That would allow its leadership to martyr those believers who would promote the simple Gospel of God's infinite sacrificial love towards “all” of His suffering children. The infallible truth is that our God continuously fulfills 2 Chronicles 16:9 without any favorites within any culture or lineage. (Matthew 19:30, 20:16, Mark 10:31) Ultimately, Jesus is continually praying and working alongside His Heavenly Host in order that His Church would be taught to pursue Holiness, and would also learn to work in concert with His Spirit so that a mighty army of believers might accomplish a best-case fulfillment of all “prophetic-scripture”, i.e. a best case view of the Greek word katargeō in 1Corinthians 13:8. (e.g. never fulfilling Nahum 1:15c & Zephaniah 1:2,18c) At the same time the devil works to promote a worst case fulfillment of all “prophetic-scripture,” by using the lethargy and the bigoted animosities that all doctrines-of-men would promote. What will be accomplished in our present day concerning the billions of souls on the earth is in the hands of Jesus' Church, much more than in the hands of God's Holy Angels; just as all the judgments on Jerusalem and on the Church in 70 AD was able to be minimized via the efforts of Jesus' Church worldwide prior to 70 AD. It is this editor's prayer that in our present generation more would pursue God's Holiness in order that “mercy will triumph over judgments” as James 2:13 prophecies.]

So I post my views to ascertain if some who might read them would be like the Bereans, and so my views "might" improve their previous understandings after considering another's views.

Any comments anyone?

A Servant of Jesus Christ
AServantofJC