A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

justbyfaith said:

I have never said such things.

My position is that God, who is Spirit, became a Man (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

Click to expand...

you did say those tings when you said a man was Most High.

are men of this world spirit?

jaybird said:

are men of this world spirit?

Click to expand...

Every man in this world is composed of spirit and soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

The trinity has so many issues when you test it against scripture that you have to create even more doctrines to fix these problems. After the doctrine of the trinity was created they had to continue to add these sub doctrines, a doctrine for the doctrine. One of these sub doctrines is the hypostatic union. I was talking to another guy here explaining these problems but no matter how I explained them he refused to acknowledge they were there.

These are the problems you get into with all this. The trinity says three persons in one nature, then you get the hypostatic union claiming two natures in one person. Already we see an inconstancy, one nature, but now two natures?

Within the one being you have two natures with each nature contradicting the other, finite/infinite, eternal/contingent, natural/supernatural, corporeal/non-corporeal, mortal/immortal, omniscience/limited knowledge, perfect/sinful, etc.

you have the simple common sense problems, Jesus was the Most High but He was 100% man, this means man can go into the heavens, create the heavens, the planets, and the rest, but man can not do these things.

The trinity does not stand the test against scripture, such as Jesus teaching the Father is greater than the Son,so you add more doctrines to fix the this, add the HU and now the teaching becomes, the Father is NOT greater than the Son. if this succeeds in fixing the the issues ok but now you have a new set of problems that the new doctrine creates such as Jesus did not say the Father if NOT greater.

Then you have additional groups attempting to deal with these problems and they all lead to heresy, Docetism, Arianism, Modelism, and the rest. No answer can be found, no one can explain it, the church is left with throwing their arms up in frustration and claiming its a “mystery of the faith” when you hear someone say this statement it means your asking to many questions. With all these problems and frustration the church was left with no choice but to start burning people alive.

None of these things make sense and there is little in scripture to support. Whatever is in scripture to support these things they are far out weighed by the scriptures against.

If someone want to believe in these things, if they think it helps them in their relationship with the Most High, they should continue believing, but I think its a bit far fetched to say someone MUST BELIEVE with all these problems that can not be explained.

sho said:

All gospels are greek, there is no hebrew gospel. The oldest manuscripts of the Matthew Gospel are greek. And these ancient scripts contains the baptism formula. I don't know even one bible which does not contain the baptism formula of Matthew. Even the "bible" of the wittnesses of Jehovah has the baptism formula.

Click to expand...

"Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect."

— Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1 [c.175-185 A.D.]

justbyfaith said:

I have never said such things.

My position is that God, who is Spirit, became a Man (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

Click to expand...

this is the end result when you say man is the Most High

justbyfaith said:

Every man in this world is composed of spirit and soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Click to expand...

the exact same way the Most High is spirit?

jaybird said:

The trinity does not stand the test against scripture, such as Jesus teaching the Father is greater than the Son, so you add more doctrines to fix the this, add the HU and now the teaching becomes, the Father is NOT greater than the Son.

Click to expand...

The Son is equal to the Father according to John 5:18.

jaybird said:

if this succeeds in fixing the the issues ok but now you have a new set of problems that the new doctrine creates such as Jesus did not say the Father is <fify> NOT greater.

Click to expand...

He claimed to be equal with the Father (John 5:18).

jaybird said:

Already we see an inconstancy, one nature, but now two natures?

Within the one being you have two natures with each nature contradicting the other, finite/infinite, eternal/contingent, natural/supernatural, corporeal/non-corporeal, mortal/immortal, omniscience/limited knowledge, perfect/sinful, etc.

Click to expand...

See Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33-36.

jaybird said:

the exact same way the Most High is spirit?

Click to expand...

are you a unitarian ?

justbyfaith said:

The Son is equal to the Father according to John 5:18.

He claimed to be equal with the Father (John 5:18).

Click to expand...

the equality is the fact that they are both from the heavens. a son of the Most High is of the heavens like the Most High and also Jesus has the authority of the Most High. He comes in the "name" of the Most High.

John 19:7
“We have a law,” answered the Jews, “and according to that law He must die, because He declared Himself to be the Son of God.”

"Son of" the Most High is what He was claiming, thats what He was accused of.

See Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33-36.

Click to expand...

the Lords ways are not our own? in other word its a mystery. our salvation depends on a mystery that no one can explain. the problem with this is that if you let this go it gives precedent to anyone else to come along later, make up what ever doctrine that want, and when people question it we just tell em its a mystery, accept or go to hell.

edit, one thing i keep forgetting, if you are equal to someone you dont share their identity. no one claims to be equal with themselves.

sho said:

Jesus Christ is God Almighty. It was He who appeared to Abraham, and it was He who fought against Jacob, and it was He who appeared to Moses as the "I Am". How will you escape God's wrath? For it is written: "If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"

Click to expand...

the "die in your sins" passage Jesus does not say "he" means Most High.

I tell you again, the name JESUS means "YAHWEH is the savior" The name itself testifies that JESUS is HE, he is YAHWEH.

Click to expand...

Jesus said He was Son of the Most High. the Most High is not the "son of" anyone. do you not know what "son of" means?

Emmanual - G-D is with us
Yeshua - to deliver; to rescue

my name means healer in greek, im not a doctor.

justbyfaith said:

1) the "He" is in italics, so it is not in the original manuscript. Therefore, He is effectively saying, If ye believe not that I AM <the great I AM>, you will die in your sins.

2) Even if the "He" is to be included, John 8:27 shows us who the "He" is that is being spoken of. Just as in that day, many in this day do not understand that Jesus is speaking to us of the Father.

Click to expand...

Thanks, and I think this is going to take a bit more study brfore I see it clearly.

TheslightestID said:

Thanks, and I think this is going to take a bit more study brfore I see it clearly.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly."
Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."
Isaiah 6:4 "And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke."


now this,

John 12:37 "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:"
John 12:38 "That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (Isaiah chapter 53)
John 12:39 "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,"
John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him."

is this the same person in John 12 here the Lord Jesus who Isaiah saw form chapter 6 onward? ....... YES.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

jaybird said:

"Son of" the Most High is what He was claiming, thats what He was accused of.

Click to expand...

Realize though, that in claiming to be the son of the Most High He was claiming also to be "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

You have to engage in eisegesis and change the holy scriptures in order to deny this plain fact of holy scripture.

jaybird said:

edit, one thing i keep forgetting, if you are equal to someone you dont share their identity. no one claims to be equal with themselves.

Click to expand...

Yet, have you considered the following?

That there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and that this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 1:21). Nevertheless, no one can say that "Jesus is the Lord" except by the Spirit of truth, in light of this (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

So, since Jesus and the Father are the same, one Lord, how do they not carry the same identity?

justbyfaith said:

Realize though, that in claiming to be the son of the Most High He was claiming also to be "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

You have to engage in eisegesis and change the holy scriptures in order to deny this plain fact of holy scripture.

Click to expand...

is that not the SAME person, and the same Spirit? because you said,

justbyfaith said:

That there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and that this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 1:21). Nevertheless, no one can say that "Jesus is the Lord" except by the Spirit of truth, in light of this (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Click to expand...

well now, is not GOD the ONE, LORD, all caps... per Deuteronomy 6:4. and he the LORD is the "ALMIGHTY", listen, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

here "LORD" = Almighty, now this.

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

here "Lord" cap "L" only = Almighty

NOW JBF, is this two separate and distinct person, not Spirits, but PERSONS. yes or No?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

101G said:

is that not the SAME person, and the same Spirit?

Click to expand...

Most definitely.

101G said:

NOW JBF, is this two separate and distinct person, not Spirits, but PERSONS. yes or No?

Click to expand...

no to separate, yes to distinct.

God is one Person; also three.

justbyfaith said:

no to separate, yes to distinct.

Click to expand...

"LORD" = Almighty,

"Lord" cap "L" only = Almighty

NOW JBF, are you saying that the LORD Almighty is distinct from the Lord Almighty. yes or No?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"