Good thoughts, Surf Rider. I had very similar words for the typical post-Reformation "shepherd" a year and a half ago (link). The reformation really did miss a golden opportunity, because though they started off well they only wound up changing the names of the RCC's hierarchical positions. Same song, second verse. But I agree, God is calling out His own, and I believe it is the last real "revival" before the end. (Kinda reminds me of a section from How the Grinch Stole Christmas: "It came without evangelists, it came without bands... it came without tent meetings, offerings, or ads!")
The Great Danger Of Being Out Of Church
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marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Unfortunately the Bible doesn’t. You can’t attend the church because we are the church so you can’t attend yourself.
Everyone who is born again and baptized is a member of the body of Christ. When they meet together (two or three or more) they are the church. This meeting together can be any day of the week in any place i.e. the home, work, park, office, gym, school etc for the simple reason we are the temple of the Holy Spirit so buildings are not necessary.
.
You will not find anywhere in scripture that says a biblical church is one that has a pastor that preaches the word.
In my bibles it says that the apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher are all needed to mature the saints (Eph 4:11)
It doesn’t need to as it is not scriptural. It was invented by the RC church to give the priest more authority over the people.
Where does it say in scriptures that the church meets Sunday morning in a public building to sing songs, listen to a sermon and shake hands with everyone?
You will not find anywhere in the New Testament any church “calling” a pastor from outside the church.
If you don’t allow tongue speaking, you can’t be a bible believing church. You must be a church that picks and chooses what it wants to believe.
Many churches who are “biblically sound” have gone astray.
You will not find this method anywhere in scripture. All leadership was appointed from within the fellowship
Where does it say this in scripture?
One is not attending 'Church' when the Word of God is not taught.. Hence, if one is in a Bible Study group or performs home study alone, one is doing more 'Church' than attending a local church, which promotes traditions of man that make void the Word of Truth.
[If anyone has already made this point, please accept my apology -- I did not scroll through all the replies to the OP.]
[If anyone has already made this point, please accept my apology -- I did not scroll through all the replies to the OP.]
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Interestingly, Ï have been attending a baptist church and they gave me a booklet "What baptists believe. I went through it and found 31 things that they believe that are not supported by scripture. The end result was I was told I could not do or say anything because I believed in the supernatural power of God.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Sort of but not really. As you will see In Ephesians 4:8 that he gave gifts to men (five) apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher. (v11). In verse 12 it says he gave them for...the work of the ministry. The word ministry is diakonia which means attendance as a servant. So that means all five are servant ministries, which is a bit different to how they operate today. So he does call them by giving them an annointing that is for minnistry, not a position. Appointing someone to be a shepherd doesn't make them a shepherd. Only an annointing gives you that.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I have a feeling that your understanding of church is quite different to what is describes in the NT.
First, there is only one body of Christ and if you are born again and baptised by immersion, you are a part of it.
Second, you are church where two or three (or more) are gathered together in his name. There is no mention of liturgy here which is not surpising as it is a man made concept.
The so called "main church family" is anyone who is a member of the body of Christ. You will note that the NT church went from house to house (not attend liturgical services with the eucharist) for prayer, teaching fellowship and food. It is all there in Acts 2 Doing these four things means that I am giving expression to what the church is and me as part of it. As long as I have at least two people, the "main" church is functioning.
Liturgical church services were invented by man and are not found in the New Testament.
You will find that there is not one verse that suggests a pastor was chosen to lead the fellowship. There are 25 verses in the NT that talks about leadership and EVERY ONE OF THEM speak about the apostles, prophets and Elders. not once is the term "pastor"used. You would think that if pastors were in charge they would be included in the leadership references. The Elders were chosen from within the fellowship. They did not bring anyone in from outside.
Appointing a pastor is not found in scripture regardless of the method you use. You will not find one instance in the NT where a pastor is appointed to lead the church.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I don't know where you got this verse from but it doesn't say what you claim it to say. In the original Greek it says they have been make OVERSEERS, to SHEPHERD the flock. In other words, a servant ministry and quite different to a catholic bishop who is set on a pedestal. One who serves does not rule. In fact Jesus said we are not to do what the gentiles do and rule over each other. You can't get plainer than that.
In addition, this message was to the Ephesian Elders, not to bishops.
Again you are putting your RC spin on this verse. The word "prelate" does not appear in scripture. The word is 'lead' you and as we have seen the context of scripture is always serving, not power over.
I can't find anywhere where it says we are to obey pastors and priests as neither words or ministries figure in any text about leadership.
pia
Well-Known Member
Hi all.......So much can and is said about this subject... I guess people somehow feel " more righteous " if they go to church on a regular basis, get dressed up all nice, and are on their best behavior, while at church..
The thing is....The church is not something you go to... It is something that you either are or are not.... Peter, when He received the revelation from above, that Jesus was the Son of God, was informed by Jesus that on :" This rock I will build My Church.".. The rock being the revelation from above, The True Word.
So when you receive revelation from above that Jesus truly is The son of God ( through you seeking Him with all of your heart ) , then you become part of His Church, His glorious Bride.
There is NOTHING more harmful than sitting under a pastor, who is teaching you out of his own understanding, not letting you receive revelation from above yourself......The outright lies we are told about God's character, which makes us so fearful of Him., only brings us toward death, NOT LIFE.
It has taken The Lord many many years to undo, what ' the church' did to me..Thank God that He showed me the way out of The Harlot, and into His glorious Love.
regards Pia
The thing is....The church is not something you go to... It is something that you either are or are not.... Peter, when He received the revelation from above, that Jesus was the Son of God, was informed by Jesus that on :" This rock I will build My Church.".. The rock being the revelation from above, The True Word.
So when you receive revelation from above that Jesus truly is The son of God ( through you seeking Him with all of your heart ) , then you become part of His Church, His glorious Bride.
There is NOTHING more harmful than sitting under a pastor, who is teaching you out of his own understanding, not letting you receive revelation from above yourself......The outright lies we are told about God's character, which makes us so fearful of Him., only brings us toward death, NOT LIFE.
It has taken The Lord many many years to undo, what ' the church' did to me..Thank God that He showed me the way out of The Harlot, and into His glorious Love.
regards Pia
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I was reading about a church in India that had 100,000 members and growing and they all met in homes. No liturgy, no priest, no pastor. Which brings me to another topic which is often raised by those who attend the apostate church to those who are part of the real body of Christ and it is....if you meet in a home without a pastor/priest/minister, who is your covering?
Of course the answer is very simple. As has been said before. Our covering is Jesus because it is his church so he is the one in charge so we report to him. There is no where in scripture that says we relate to him through a pastor. I have been in churches where the pastor has made it very clear that God only speaks to him about matters relating to the church.
Nowhere does it say that God wants to relate to us through others. We are his sons, not grandsons
Of course the answer is very simple. As has been said before. Our covering is Jesus because it is his church so he is the one in charge so we report to him. There is no where in scripture that says we relate to him through a pastor. I have been in churches where the pastor has made it very clear that God only speaks to him about matters relating to the church.
Nowhere does it say that God wants to relate to us through others. We are his sons, not grandsons
pia
Well-Known Member
Amen Brother........If you have a read in Revelations , you will find that as opposed to The True Church, there is the one called The great Harlot and all of her daughters ( off spring )..... It is quite easy to see that it is referring to the first man-made church, the catholic church and the subsequent denominations, which sprang up from that.
It is very unfortunate that when The bible was translated into German by Luther, that he used the word for a literal building ( temple ) , which became the word ' church ', when if you look at the original Greek, the word was " Ecclesias " sorry not sure about correct spelling, and that means ' THE CALLED OUT ONES '.
So any of you out there, who have heard from The Lord :" Come out of her my children " or anything similar, I really hope that you do.......Accept His calling you out, lest you miss your calling, and let Him shine the Light so that you know where you are going.......
Don't allow anyone to come between you and your Loving Father, except Jesus, and that is only so He can then lead you directly to your Father.
In HIs Love Pia
Selene
New Member
Hello Marksman,
For your information, the Greek word for "overseer" and "bishop" are exactly the same. It is "episkopos."
The word "prelate" is found in the Douay-Rhimes Bible (which is the oldest English Bible in the Catholic Church). The word "prelate" means an ecclesiastic of a high order (such as an archbishop or bishop). The word "prelate" is used because the Scripture points to a leader who watches over your soul. According to the New King James Bible, this is how Hebrews 13:17 is written:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
As you can see from Scripture, "those who rule over you" are referring to people who watch out for your souls. The President of the United States is a leader, but is he in charge of watching over your soul? No, of course not. The Senators and Representatives in the US are elected leaders. Do they watch over your soul? Of course not. Therefore, it is obvious that these leaders who rule over you could not be the politicians. So, the word "prelate" is in the Douay-Rhimes Bible (which is the oldest English Bible in the Catholic Church) because those are indeed leaders who are in charge of watching over our souls. I hope that helps explains it better. God bless.
In Christ,
Selene
There are two related verses in Heb. 13. In vs. 7 the Greek reads "you-must-remember the ones-leading you who spoke to-you the word of God of-whom considering the outcome of-the behavior you-must-imitate the faith". (dashed words are one Greek word) A literal translation would be, "Remember those leading you, who brought you the Word of God. Consider the result of their behavior and imitate their faith." Not one Greek word for rule or authority is found there. Vs. 17 reads "you-must-be-persuaded to-the ones-leading you and you-must-defer to-them for they-are-diligent for-the-sake-of the souls -of-you as account having-to-render...". Again we see "lead", and instead of any word for "obey" there is "defer". The rest of the verse gives the motivation: so that we don't make their service burdensome. It is only wise to follow godly leaders. But like sheep we will only follow those whose voice we know, so a truly gifted leader won't need to demand a following.
The NT was written in Greek, not Latin or English. Let us go to the best Greek scholarship and interlinears to get past the biased translations (and they ALL are, to one degree or another). We even have to be careful about the dictionaries since many important discoveries have been made of koine Greek in the last hundred years but were never used to update the most influential ones (I could venture some guesses as to why).
Selene
New Member
Hello Saber Truth,
According to my Thesaurus, a leader is another word for authority. The one who lead, bringing the word of God would be the priests and bishops. So, how is that different from "prelate" which also means bishop or archbishop?
In Christ,
Selene
An English thesaurus is not a Greek lexicon.
The koine Greek had several words for rule or authority but none are used in this passage, and the words for "lead" don't imply it. Scripture as a whole is also clear that the kingdom of heaven is upside down to the kingdoms of the world ("not so among you"), that we are all equal parts of one Body, and that we are all "a kingdom of priests".
I wrote a small book you can read for free online where I argue that the "Nicolaitans" were the people whose teaching of hierarchy Jesus hates. Jesus said in Mt. 23:5-12:
[sup][/sup]
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So, can we agree that going to church has more benefits than not going? Can we agree that God wants us to fellowship with the Body, to which we belong? If yes, going to Church seems to be a good idea that will probably benefit us spiritually. Therefore, to not go would be damaging - so we should go to church (or find a better church) because it is good for our relationship with God and our neighbor. I am really not sure why it matters if Jesus didn't mention not going to church as a sin - if it is beneficial, do it.
People always act like sin is something that is bad only if God says it is - can't you guys generalize? Can't you see when things are good for you and when they are damaging? No wonder Christ called us blind!
Peace
People always act like sin is something that is bad only if God says it is - can't you guys generalize? Can't you see when things are good for you and when they are damaging? No wonder Christ called us blind!
Peace
Fellowship, absolutely. Church as tradition has had it? Not so much.
By design, the "church" is hierarchical. It is set up like a business with an organizational chart, takes resumes for the CEO position of "pastor" or "head pastor", has bylaws and committees and trustees and officers, registers with the government as a non-profit organization, and operates on a fiscal year. Even house churches can have the same on a smaller scale. Relationally there is a pecking order, whether the topic is theology or the next church dinner. It's a club for Christians.
Granted, clubs are not bad in themselves, but we shouldn't mistake them for what the church is meant to be. We are meant to be neighbors and family who get together whenever we can and share our lives. In contrast, many "church members" rarely know more than a small percentage of the congregation, and only speak to them before or after "services". There is really more fellowship during the 1-minute "meet and greet" than any other time on Sunday!
What Jesus mentioned was "neither here nor in Jerusalem but in Spirit and truth", and "where two or three are gathered". Not one hint exists in all the NT about sacred buildings, liturgies, altars, offerings, priests, sermons, or seminaries. Just people and gifts. The Christian life is just that: a life.
Hello Sabertruth, as I didn't see a prompt for inserting my two cents without quoting, I chose this one, so, please don't think I singled you out.
As far as the rest of the posts (for the most part)...wow.
It is amazing that I am witnessing a call to forsake the assembling of the brethren. I will agree that there are a lot of churches out there that should be avoided, but I ask you, do you (and I am speaking to all who have spoken against the standard of worship Christendom generally practices) really mean to persuade those who are not of the Church (the body of Christ) to avoid places of worship? Where their possible salvation may await them?
I myself was saved in one of those buildings. Where were all of you saved? None of you were saved in just such an "institution?"
I also regularly attend a fellowship, and I will tell you, My Pastor is not a man that "rules a kingdom," but is, I believe, God's man doing what God intends for him to do...preach the word.
While you may have all found fulfillment outside of regular "church services," I would caution you from casting all fellowships in a bad light.
I would venture a guess that at least most of you were saved through the ministries of just such "establishments."
I did want to look at your statement here. While I believe that Hebrews should for the most part be contained within itself, due to the unique nature of the book in it's amazing doctrinal statement and it's audience, and that we find word usage that has to be separated because of the context found within...I thought it would be good to see how this word is used elsewhere in scripture.
Hebrews 13:7 (KJV)
[sup]7[/sup]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
The question is whether this is speaking about rulership, as the KJV translation would imply, or if we can dismiss it as merely a leadership. Well, if one is leading, does that mean it precludes authority?
2233. hegeomai hayg-eh'-om-ahee middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of 71; to lead, i.e. command (with official authority); figuratively, to deem, i.e. consider:--account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
It seems hegeomai can (and is) translated both with the connotation of leading, and, to esteem, or deem.
Which application fits best with Hebrews 13:7 (NIV)?
But there is a word for rule or authority found there, within the text itself. See hegeomai in other uses:
Matthew 2:6 (King James Version)
[sup]6[/sup]And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Acts 15:22 (King James Version)
[sup]22[/sup]Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Hebrews 13:7 (King James Version)
[sup]7[/sup]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:17 (King James Version)
[sup]17[/sup]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:24 (King James Version)
[sup]24[/sup]Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
It seems pretty clear that the writer uses hegeomai in the usage of leadership, which is implied by his use of "obey" and "submit" in v.17. Unless we think that he is jumping around a bit, it would seem reasonable that this is his intent throughout the verses.
Also, in v. 17, we are told they "watch for your souls, as they must give account." We can make perfect sense of that if we understand that teaching the unlearned, the lost, the newborn Christians, and even the seasoned Christians is something that is usually done by the mature.
James 3
[sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Here, the term master is probably better translated as teacher...a position of leadership. Jesus was called by the people, Master. But then, a teacher probably was held in higher esteem back then than they are now. I think James is saying very plainly, "Watch what you say, because whether you know it or not, your words have great impact on others."
Obey is:
3982. peitho pi'-tho a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
What meaning we take this word to mean should be found within the context, and with the additional exhortation to submit yourselves (5226), the meaning seems relatively clear. Submit yourselves is:
5226. hipeiko hoop-i'-ko from 5259 and eiko (to yield, be "weak"); to surrender:--submit self.
Understand, my intention is not to imply that all congregational fellowships are to be trusted, they are not. Nor do I seek to make light of those who may have gone through bad experiences in the "church" (institution, establishment, etc.), and have withdrawn from attending a "church."
But I absolutely caution all those who cast aspersion on all fellowships to consider that Jesus Christ is the One Who builds the Church, and yes, that includes members of the Body of Christ who do meet weekly in a building.
I will remain an active participant in corporate worship, for this is the pattern which God has used throughout scripture.
GTY
As far as the rest of the posts (for the most part)...wow.
It is amazing that I am witnessing a call to forsake the assembling of the brethren. I will agree that there are a lot of churches out there that should be avoided, but I ask you, do you (and I am speaking to all who have spoken against the standard of worship Christendom generally practices) really mean to persuade those who are not of the Church (the body of Christ) to avoid places of worship? Where their possible salvation may await them?
I myself was saved in one of those buildings. Where were all of you saved? None of you were saved in just such an "institution?"
I also regularly attend a fellowship, and I will tell you, My Pastor is not a man that "rules a kingdom," but is, I believe, God's man doing what God intends for him to do...preach the word.
While you may have all found fulfillment outside of regular "church services," I would caution you from casting all fellowships in a bad light.
I would venture a guess that at least most of you were saved through the ministries of just such "establishments."
I did want to look at your statement here. While I believe that Hebrews should for the most part be contained within itself, due to the unique nature of the book in it's amazing doctrinal statement and it's audience, and that we find word usage that has to be separated because of the context found within...I thought it would be good to see how this word is used elsewhere in scripture.
Hebrews 13:7 (KJV)
[sup]7[/sup]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
The question is whether this is speaking about rulership, as the KJV translation would imply, or if we can dismiss it as merely a leadership. Well, if one is leading, does that mean it precludes authority?
2233. hegeomai hayg-eh'-om-ahee middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of 71; to lead, i.e. command (with official authority); figuratively, to deem, i.e. consider:--account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
It seems hegeomai can (and is) translated both with the connotation of leading, and, to esteem, or deem.
Which application fits best with Hebrews 13:7 (NIV)?
But there is a word for rule or authority found there, within the text itself. See hegeomai in other uses:
Matthew 2:6 (King James Version)
[sup]6[/sup]And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Acts 15:22 (King James Version)
[sup]22[/sup]Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Hebrews 13:7 (King James Version)
[sup]7[/sup]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:17 (King James Version)
[sup]17[/sup]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:24 (King James Version)
[sup]24[/sup]Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
It seems pretty clear that the writer uses hegeomai in the usage of leadership, which is implied by his use of "obey" and "submit" in v.17. Unless we think that he is jumping around a bit, it would seem reasonable that this is his intent throughout the verses.
Also, in v. 17, we are told they "watch for your souls, as they must give account." We can make perfect sense of that if we understand that teaching the unlearned, the lost, the newborn Christians, and even the seasoned Christians is something that is usually done by the mature.
James 3
[sup]1[/sup]My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Here, the term master is probably better translated as teacher...a position of leadership. Jesus was called by the people, Master. But then, a teacher probably was held in higher esteem back then than they are now. I think James is saying very plainly, "Watch what you say, because whether you know it or not, your words have great impact on others."
Obey is:
3982. peitho pi'-tho a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
What meaning we take this word to mean should be found within the context, and with the additional exhortation to submit yourselves (5226), the meaning seems relatively clear. Submit yourselves is:
5226. hipeiko hoop-i'-ko from 5259 and eiko (to yield, be "weak"); to surrender:--submit self.
Understand, my intention is not to imply that all congregational fellowships are to be trusted, they are not. Nor do I seek to make light of those who may have gone through bad experiences in the "church" (institution, establishment, etc.), and have withdrawn from attending a "church."
But I absolutely caution all those who cast aspersion on all fellowships to consider that Jesus Christ is the One Who builds the Church, and yes, that includes members of the Body of Christ who do meet weekly in a building.
I will remain an active participant in corporate worship, for this is the pattern which God has used throughout scripture.
GTY
Ranger, where did you see such a call? What does "where two or three" and "in spirit and truth" mean? "the standard of worship Christendom generally practices" doesn't mean that's what God intended.
Every believer is a preacher of the gospel. There is no need to wait for Sunday or use emotional manipulation techniques to guilt, scare, or cajole people into what is admittedly no guarantee of a genuine conversion. Our salvation is in the gospel, not the venue.
If "your pastor" is "in charge", he rules a kingdom. But Jesus said "Whoever wants to be the one at the table must take the place of the waiter". We can't turn "NO lording over" into "benevolent lording over". This isn't about how nice a ruler anyone is, but whether they rule at all. And if it's a place of low service, then there would be no stipulations over who gets to be there.
Name one person here who has done such a thing. Name them.
The Holy Spirit can do the job.
As for the rest of your comment, I've already mentioned that "lead" is not "rule" in koine Greek. And no reputable Greek scholar considers Strong's an authoritative source. Try the LSJ or BDAG.
Ask the Greek lexicons.
Re. Mt. 2:6 etc., we still have "leaders", but if you think the Greek scholars are too stupid to know the semantic range of the word, why not straighten them out? Then people like me wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Until then, continued appeals to Strong's or the KJV are circular arguments.
Absolutely. The mature. Not the lording over. Leaders need to be mature role models and qualified teachers. Guardians are not rulers, BTW. Ever seen the king of a country standing watch on the walls?
This is a common response when people hear the message of true freedom in Christ. They think something bad had to happen to us. Personally, and for many others, the reasons come straight from Bible study. I don't see The Institution there anywhere, but only a Body whose "parts" build each other up.
This is your third such accusation. Name those who have said something bad about fellowship or repent.
Show me "corporate worship" in the NT that remotely resembles the typical church service. Then show me the prescribed activities for such worship, and give chapter and verse for the officiating ruler.
But I must insist that you either name names of who has dissed fellowship or repent of these false charges.
- May 22, 2008
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Hello S.T. Ranger
After starting this thread and saying my piece, I backed off for a while.
But when you said..........
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, we are witnessing the great falling away and Satan is enjoying every minute of it.
And the Bible foretold it all..........
2 Timothy 3:12-14
V.12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
V.13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
V.14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
After starting this thread and saying my piece, I backed off for a while.
But when you said..........
It got my attention.
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, we are witnessing the great falling away and Satan is enjoying every minute of it.
And the Bible foretold it all..........
2 Timothy 3:12-14
V.12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
V.13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
V.14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
Yep. People "go to church" instead of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word, and these "churches" are teaching heresies like mysticism, the teachings of the Nicolaitans (name means "conquering the people" and refers to the clergy/laity hierarchy), flesh-based privilege (male supremacy) instead of gift-based service, tithing and other legalistic nonsense, and too many other falsehoods to count. The Institution is dead on its feet and soon judgment will come. The people go to have their itching ears tickled but "deny the power" of the Spirit.
I agree 100%.
"Come out of her, my people, that you will not share in her plagues..."
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