The Great Danger Of Being Out Of Church

bigape · Nov 8, 2010

Hello SaberTruth

Nice to talk to you.

You said........

“Yep. People "go to church" instead of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word and these "churches" are teaching heresies like mysticism, the teachings of the Nicolaitans (name means "conquering the people" and refers to the clergy/laity hierarchy),”

Of course there are a lot of “bad churches” & denominations, that are sending people to hell.

But part of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word, is finding a “good Bible believing Church”, that preaches the Gospel.

You and I NEED God’s Word “preached” to us: Because if we only rely on our personal Bible study, our flesh will lie to us and cause us to skip the uncomfortable parts.

But if we Go to a Bible believing Church, where a preacher is being used by God to preach God’s Word to us, the Bible will regularly nail our hide to the wall and if we keep going, God’s Word will change our lives.
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You also said........

“........flesh-based privilege (male supremacy)”

What you call “male supremacy”, isn’t flesh-based, but Bible based.....
1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
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Next you said........

“instead of gift-based service, tithing and other legalistic nonsense, and too many other falsehoods to count.”

Once again, you are criticizing a clear Bible teaching.......
1 Corinthians 9:7-14
V.7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
V.8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
V.9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
V.10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
V.11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
V.12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
V.13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
V.14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
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Good Churches, do EVERYTHING according to the Word of God!

SaberTruth · Nov 8, 2010

bigape said:
Hello SaberTruth But part of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word, is finding a “good Bible believing Church”, that preaches the Gospel.

And what is a true NT church? People. Believers. And who is to preach the gospel? Every single one of us. Teaching beyond that is to be done by those whose life and understanding of scripture is deemed to be qualified. But they cannot replace the Holy Spirit, and if the teacher is defective in either character or knowledge, people need to discern this and reject them. But we have had so many generations of poor teaching that the people are like baby birds with their mouths open, swallowing whatever the almighty Pastor dumps in, never questioning or chewing or tasting. They have put him on a pedestal.

You and I NEED God’s Word “preached” to us: Because if we only rely on our personal Bible study, our flesh will lie to us and cause us to skip the uncomfortable parts.

And "the Pastor's" flesh never lies to him/her? Does the Pastor have more Holy Spirit than others? It seems to me you are advocating the RCC's "magisterium", its infallible interpreter. It's almost Gnostic in its claim that only the elite class can understand the sacred writings.

What you call “male supremacy”, isn’t flesh-based, but Bible based.....
1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

You obviously think I'm a n00b to the gender war. Think again.

Once again, you are criticizing a clear Bible teaching.......
1 Corinthians 9:7-14
...

Curious that you stopped at vs. 14. Let's continue:

[sup]15[/sup] But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. [sup]16[/sup] For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! [sup]17[/sup] If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. [sup]18[/sup] What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Paul's example, as well as that of Jesus in Phil. 2:5-11, is to lay privilege down and humble ourselves. Paul did not take any kind of regular salary, but earned his own living while going everywhere to spread the gospel. And we could add this:

2 Corinthians 12:14
Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

[font="Verdana][size="4"]Do the sheep support the shepherd? Do they go hunting while the shepherd sits in the pen and waits for provision? Then how can any "pastor" do this, expecting a salary while everyone else has to not only support themselves but the "pastor" too, while exercising their own spiritual gifts for free? Such arrogance! And such loss of reward.[/size][/font]

bigape · Nov 8, 2010

Hello again SaberTruth

There’s the “flaw”, in your ointment.
You said........

“And what is a true NT church? People. Believers. And Every single one of us. Teaching beyond that is to be done by those whose life and understanding of scripture is deemed to be qualified. But they cannot replace the Holy Spirit, and if the teacher is defective in either character or knowledge, people need to discern this and reject them.”

Your flaw, is a rejection of authority. God’s authority.

You are right, that God’s people(all of us), have a responsibility to reject preachers, that don’t rightly divide the Word of truth.
This is the authority a Church body has, and they should exercise it, when needed.

You ask, “who is to preach the gospel?” Even though every believer is to minister to one another and the world, but preaching, is done by preachers.
And preachers are called of God.........
Ephesians 4:11-14
V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
V.13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
V.14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Everyone who stays out of Church, will end up being deceived by every wind of doctrine.
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Your feelings toward Church & preachers, is right out of the Bible.......
2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Preachers are to keep “preaching” the word of God; Even though in the last days(TODAY), people will be rejecting “preaching” and want “teachers”.

The difference between preaching and teaching, is a preacher proclaimed the truth of God’s Word, while a teacher discusses the Bible.

Too many people, who run into a bad man-made pastor or a bad Church, just give up and fall out of Church all together.

Or, they don’t like it when the man of God preaches against sin and rather than repenting and getting right with God, they simply fall out or find another “church”, that doesn’t preach against sin.

This....is the great falling away.

SaberTruth · Nov 8, 2010

bigape said:
Hello again SaberTruth

There’s the “flaw”, in your ointment.
You said........

Your flaw, is a rejection of authority. God’s authority.

Nope. I recognize and bow to God's authority. I reject man's usurping of the authority of the Holy Spirit.

You ask, “who is to preach the gospel?” Even though every believer is to minister to one another and the world, but preaching, is done by preachers.
And preachers are called of God.........

I saw no The Pastor in that passage, or in any other passage in the NT. I see a Body with many parts, and each part belongs to all the others. In fact,

1 Cor. 12: [sup]21[/sup] The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” [sup]22[/sup] On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, [sup]23[/sup] and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, [sup]24[/sup] while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, [sup]25[/sup] so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. [sup]26[/sup] If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it

See that? The parts you think are important aren't bosses of the other parts, and the parts you think are not as important deserve special honor. The clergy/laity teaching is unbiblical because it advocates DIVISION in the Body of Christ! Furthermore,

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

We ALL are to build each other up; this is not the sole domain of one gift-- and I think many need a reminder that this Pastor is a gift, not an office or title.

Everyone who stays out of Church, will end up being deceived by every wind of doctrine.

I think the reverse is true, and there's plenty of evidence for it. Keep scratching those itching ears, but you will have no excuse before God. Read what's been posted here and the links, because it doesn't appear that you have read much or read it carefully. I won't waste any more time repeating.

bigape · Nov 8, 2010

SaberTruth, I have been correcting your clearly unbiblical ideas, but as you have proven, there is no convincing you.

God’s Word tells us that correction, is a very valuable thing; Therefore it should not be wasted on those, who aren’t interested.

Here is what Jesus had to say about it........
Matthew 7:1-6
V.1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.
V.2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
V.3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
V.4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
V.5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
V.6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Sure enough, you have trampled the Godly & Biblical advice I have given you and have turned again to rend me.

S.T. Ranger · Nov 8, 2010

SaberTruth said:
Ranger, where did you see such a call? What does "where two or three" and "in spirit and truth" mean? "the standard of worship Christendom generally practices" doesn't mean that's what God intended.

He intended it when He created Israel.

Jesus Christ met in corporate worship.

Here is a passage that supports corporate worship:

Acts 20:7-9 (King James Version)

[sup]7[/sup]And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[sup]8[/sup]And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. [sup]9[/sup]And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

I see a prophetic edge to this one: it seems that falling asleep in the middle of a sermon isn't something new (thats humor, by the way). Can't be blamed on the preacher here.

As far as the call to leave the assembling of the brethren, you do not see it, but I, and I am sure many others will, subtle though it may be.

At post 25, this reader had the discernment to pick up on the tone of the thread:

Hebrews 10 says Christians are to stir one another up to good deeds, “not forsaking our own assembling together” (v. 25)

The original poster denied having that intent, but you must have missed in my post that we should be careful of what we say.

Another poster said:

When you give your life to Jesus, truly, then you belong to Him, if you then go to a church and sign yourlife over to it, you now belong to that church, you cannot serve two masters, its eithre Jesus or man, you cant serve both.

To which another said:

excellent post. Praise the Lord!

This next poster gives the impression that the (church) is carnal. Though his post is not clear in what it is he means, again, posts are going to be interpreted as one sees fit.

I can see how you came to that conclusion now, but we probably disagree on the identity of ekklesia. There is the ekklesia that Jesus is building and then there is the religious system (church) that man has built and is building. One is spiritual the other is carnal.

And here are some good ones, that really need no interpretation:

I'm another who no longer attends what I call The Institution

And what is this person's take on the tone of the thread? It would seem to be "not going to the 'institution'" because this statement is immediately followed by:

I come from a long line of churchgoers

And...

But the last few I kept hearing "Come out of her, my people", regarding The Institution. I resisted, I studied, and finally I left.

The implication is that modern assemblage is, as the other poster implied, and this poster seems to be agreeing with...worldly. A judgemental and unkind assessment of many "institutions" which this poster could not have ever been a part of, which would give them the right to judge.

A few more quotes:

Where does it say in scriptures that the church meets Sunday morning in a public building to sing songs, listen to a sermon and shake hands with everyone?

This next person did not even have to read the whole thread to catch on to what is being said:

One is not attending 'Church' when the Word of God is not taught.. Hence, if one is in a Bible Study group or performs home study alone, one is doing more 'Church' than attending a local church, which promotes traditions of man that make void the Word of Truth.

[If anyone has already made this point, please accept my apology -- I did not scroll through all the replies to the OP.]

Hi all.......So much can and is said about this subject... I guess people somehow feel " more righteous " if they go to church on a regular basis, get dressed up all nice, and are on their best behavior, while at church..

There is NOTHING more harmful than sitting under a pastor, who is teaching you out of his own understanding, not letting you receive revelation from above yourself......

It has taken The Lord many many years to undo, what ' the church' did to me..Thank God that He showed me the way out of The Harlot, and into His glorious Love.

Amen Brother........If you have a read in Revelations , you will find that as opposed to The True Church, there is the one called The great Harlot and all of her daughters ( off spring )..... It is quite easy to see that it is referring to the first man-made church, the catholic church and the subsequent denominations, which sprang up from that.

So any of you out there, who have heard from The Lord :" Come out of her my children " or anything similar, I really hope that you do.......Accept His calling you out, lest you miss your calling, and let Him shine the Light so that you know where you are going.......

But in all of this, there is a voice of reason, a couple, actually, but I would like to repost this brother's heart, and say, I agree with him:

So, can we agree that going to church has more benefits than not going? Can we agree that God wants us to fellowship with the Body, to which we belong? If yes, going to Church seems to be a good idea that will probably benefit us spiritually. Therefore, to not go would be damaging - so we should go to church (or find a better church) because it is good for our relationship with God and our neighbor. I am really not sure why it matters if Jesus didn't mention not going to church as a sin - if it is beneficial, do it.

People always act like sin is something that is bad only if God says it is - can't you guys generalize? Can't you see when things are good for you and when they are damaging? No wonder Christ called us blind!

Peace

Amen to that.

bigape said:
Hello S.T. Ranger

After starting this thread and saying my piece, I backed off for a while.

But when you said..........

It got my attention.
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Yes, we are witnessing the great falling away and Satan is enjoying every minute of it.

And the Bible foretold it all..........
2 Timothy 3:12-14
V.12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
V.13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
V.14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

It is amazing, isn't it?

It is true that there are churches out there that have caused men to blaspheme God, but please...there are a great many who have sincere Christians in them, and they are doing what they can to edify the body.

If modern Christendom is so bad...how easy does that make it to find people to witness to?

I mean, if they think the "chusches" are so full of lost people, shouldn't that be reason enough to go?

Hang in there brother.

GTY

marksman · Nov 9, 2010

SaberTruth said:
[/size]
There are two related verses in Heb. 13. In vs. 7 the Greek reads "you-must-remember the ones-leading you who spoke to-you the word of God of-whom considering the outcome of-the behavior you-must-imitate the faith". (dashed words are one Greek word) A literal translation would be, "Remember those leading you, who brought you the Word of God. Consider the result of their behavior and imitate their faith." Not one Greek word for rule or authority is found there. Vs. 17 reads "you-must-be-persuaded to-the ones-leading you and you-must-defer to-them for they-are-diligent for-the-sake-of the souls -of-you as account having-to-render...". Again we see "lead", and instead of any word for "obey" there is "defer". The rest of the verse gives the motivation: so that we don't make their service burdensome. It is only wise to follow godly leaders. But like sheep we will only follow those whose voice we know, so a truly gifted leader won't need to demand a following.

The NT was written in Greek, not Latin or English. Let us go to the best Greek scholarship and interlinears to get past the biased translations (and they ALL are, to one degree or another). We even have to be careful about the dictionaries since many important discoveries have been made of koine Greek in the last hundred years but were never used to update the most influential ones (I could venture some guesses as to why).

Thakyou Saber Truth. That is 100% correct.

SaberTruth · Nov 9, 2010

marksman said:
Thakyou Saber Truth. That is 100% correct.

You're very welcome, marksman.

As anyone can see, this is a touchy subject for churchgoers. But they continually mistake their interpretations for the words on the page, redefining every hint of "someone special" into "there must be a CEO who bosses the others (nicely of course) because, fer cryin out loud, Jesus actually met with others... outside usually... um... with people he called brothers and sisters..." They keep ignoring the fact that fellowship is not "corporate worship" and that "corporate worship" is never defined or any instructions given, a strange omission for something they insist is mandatory.

You might be interested in a little something I blogged on a while back: Three Laws Saved.

marksman · Nov 9, 2010

I'm another who no longer attends what I call The Institution. I come from a long line of churchgoers, very active in ministry and music. I attended faithfully for the first 47 years of my life. But the last few I kept hearing "Come out of her, my people", regarding The Institution. I resisted, I studied, and finally I left.

The NT gives us the analogy of the human body as how God has designed the ekklesia, a word used for any sort of gathering but coined as a term for believers in the NT. A body is one substance with many parts, and each part reports to the one Head, Jesus. The arm does not ask permission of the eye to talk to the head, and the ear does not give orders to the foot. This is not a model of a chain of command but a unit with many equal components. The body functions best when each part does what it's designed for and does not concern itself with bossing other parts. This is the model Paul gave more than once, and he never used a model that contradicted this one.

So the "church", or the Assembly or Congregation as I like to call it, is not organized like a business or army at all. There are leaders that we might compare to the "eyes and ears" of the body, but they do not give orders or commands; that's the sole function of the brain, which we might compare to Christ. It is wise for the body to listen to what the eyes and ears report and advise, but not commanded. Never are such leaders told to take control over any "flock" but to shepherd it. And what does a good shepherd do? Do the sheep support the shepherd? Do they feed the shepherd, or does the shepherd feed and protect them? And do the sheep follow the shepherd because of fear or obligation, or because they recognize the voice of one who cares for them?

The NT is clear that any given congregation is to have a group of leaders, not just one, and such leaders are to be teachers and guardians. No guards on the walls of a city are magistrates or kings, but it is wise to believe them when they see danger. On the other hand, the people being guarded must know a bad guard when they see one. So it is really the leaders who are held to a higher standard, as both Paul and James said; it is leaders who must be examples and role models, and are in fact acknowledged on the basis of their having already demonstrated the highest qualities of a Christian.

I'll stop there for now and see what you all think.

I think your word is full of spirit and life and backed up by scripture.

The word "prelate" is found in the Douay-Rhimes Bible (which is the oldest English Bible in the Catholic Church).

You may not know Selene but protestants don't use the catholic bible because it has been changed to suit catholic theology.i.e prelate.

SaberTruth said:
Fellowship, absolutely. Church as tradition has had it? Not so much.

By design, the "church" is hierarchical. It is set up like a business with an organizational chart, takes resumes for the CEO position of "pastor" or "head pastor", has bylaws and committees and trustees and officers, registers with the government as a non-profit organization, and operates on a fiscal year. Even house churches can have the same on a smaller scale. Relationally there is a pecking order, whether the topic is theology or the next church dinner. It's a club for Christians.

Granted, clubs are not bad in themselves, but we shouldn't mistake them for what the church is meant to be. We are meant to be neighbors and family who get together whenever we can and share our lives. In contrast, many "church members" rarely know more than a small percentage of the congregation, and only speak to them before or after "services". There is really more fellowship during the 1-minute "meet and greet" than any other time on Sunday!

What Jesus mentioned was "neither here nor in Jerusalem but in Spirit and truth", and "where two or three are gathered". Not one hint exists in all the NT about sacred buildings, liturgies, altars, offerings, priests, sermons, or seminaries. Just people and gifts. The Christian life is just that: a life.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!

marksman · Nov 9, 2010

But part of relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word, is finding a “good Bible believing Church”, that preaches the Gospel

What a strange concept. The NT church did not have so called "bible believing churches" for the simple reason they did not have the bible. That was finalised in C400AD.

What they were taught was the apostle's doctrine and that was done verbally in homes through dialogue and discussion (Acts 2)

marksman · Nov 9, 2010

The difference between preaching and teaching, is a preacher proclaimed the truth of God’s Word, while a teacher discusses the Bible.

You do have some strange ideas. In my bible, the apostles preached to the unbeliever i.e. Mars Hill and the teacher teaches the believer. The greek word is "didaskalos 'which means teacher in Eph 4.

If you are referring to pastors preaching and proclaiming the truth of God's word, there are some who do that but most just give little homilies about what they think the scriptures say and when all is said and done, more is said than done.

i can't remember the number of times someone has said to me what a wonderful sermon it was and when asked what it was about they can't remember or they are asked and what can you do with it, the answer is usually nothing, so all it amounts to is hot air.

I think in all honesty your obsession with bible believing churches has blinded you to reality. The fact is despite all these bible believing churches only 1% of them are growing in the USA.

Oh, and by the way, no one believes the bible is the Word of God. What they believe is their interpretation of the bible is the word of God and that includes you.

SaberTruth · Nov 9, 2010

marksman said:
I think your word is full of spirit and life and backed up by scripture.
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!

Tanx! We know the same Jesus, don't we.

marksman · Nov 9, 2010

SaberTruth said:
Tanx! We know the same Jesus, don't we.

Yes we do and thank god it is a life giving Jesus not tramelled by rules, regulations and religion. i had alook at three laws saved because last night they showed I Robot on TV for the 20th time.

Selene · Nov 10, 2010

marksman said:
You may not know Selene but protestants don't use the catholic bible because it has been changed to suit catholic theology.i.e prelate.

Hello Marksman,

There you go again! You are judging the Catholic Church of changing Scripture to suit our theology.

As I've said in my previous post, the Douay-Rhimes is the OLDEST ENGLISH Bible that the Catholic Church has, and the Douay-Rhimes was translated from the Latin Vulgate - which was a Bible written in the FOURTH CENTURY. St. Jerome spoke Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and even built a monstarary in Jerusalem. He knew the culture and idioms of the Hebrews and of the time period. He was the one who translated the Hebrew and Greek into the Latin Vulgate in the fourth century.

There are three verses in the Douay-Rhimes that says "prelates." If you compare the Douay-Rhimes with the King James Version, this is what you see, which I think is very interesting:

(Taken from the Douay-Rhimes)
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

(Taken from the KJV)
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation

(Taken from the Douay-Rhimes):
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

(Taken from the KJV)
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

(Taken from the Douay-Rhimes)
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all your prelates and all the saints. The brethren from Italy salute you.

(Taken from the KJV)
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

In the Douay-Rhimes, the word "prelates" is used and in the KJV, the phrase "them that have rule" is used. The Greek word used for Hebrews 13:7, 17, and 24 is "hegeomai." According to Strong's biblical usage of the Greek word "Hegeomai" it states the following (and I provided the weblink below):

1) to lead

a) to go before

B) to be a leader

1) to rule, command

2) to have authority over

3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches

4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander

5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman

2) to consider, deem, account, think

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2233&t=KJV

I placed in bold what is the correct usage of "them who have rule" in Hebrews. How do I come to that conclusion? We know from the verses that they are speaking of certain people (a noun rather than a verb). Because these are people who spoke the Word of God and who watch over our souls, that would eliminate prince, governor, viceroy, commanders, and other similar leaders. Why? Because a prince, governor, viceroy, commanders, and other similar leaders do not watch over our souls nor do they spread the Gospel.

Therefore, the obvious biblical usage for Hebrews are overseers or leaders of the churches. Why? Because the overseers (bishops) and leaders of the churches are those who do watch over our soul and who do speak the word of God. According to Dictionary.com, Prelate is defined as "an ecclesiastic of a high order, as an archbishop, bishop, etc.; a church dignitary." In other words - a Church leader. Other bibles use the word "leaders." Thus, whether the Bible uses the word "prelate," "leaders," or "them that have rule" these are all CORRECT usages according to Strong's biblical usage. So, my brother, instead of accusing and judging the Catholic Church of changing the Scripture to fit their theology, it would help you more if you ASK what prelate means or even look up the word in a dictionary. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

aspen · Nov 10, 2010

Hey - thanks Selene,

I learned quite a bit from your post......

I gave out some wrong information, the other day - I thought the New Jerusalem Bible was the translation of the Latin Vulgate - I am going to have to correct that idea.

Peace

Selene · Nov 10, 2010

aspen said:
Hey - thanks Selene,

I learned quite a bit from your post......

I gave out some wrong information, the other day - I thought the New Jerusalem Bible was the translation of the Latin Vulgate - I am going to have to correct that idea.

Peace

Hi Aspen,

I never really liked the Jerusalem Bible. The only reason my priest and my catechists told me to use it is because of the wealth of information in the footnotes and references. Personally, I prefer to use the Douay-Rheims.

In Christ,
Selene

aspen · Nov 11, 2010

Selene said:
Hi Aspen,

I never really liked the Jerusalem Bible. The only reason my priest and my catechists told me to use it is because of the wealth of information in the footnotes and references. Personally, I prefer to use the Douay-Rheims.

In Christ,
Selene

I totally agree with you about the NJ Bible - the wording is so awkward. I am glad to hear it isn't a translation of the Vulgate. Since I joined the Catholic Church 10 years ago, I still tend to use the same Protestant translations I grew up with, but I will definitely get a copy of the D-R.

Thanks again

Do you use any commentaries? Like the Navarro commentaries? If so - what do you like about them?

I recently got a series of commentaries on all the books of the NT, which include commentary from 10 to 15 church fathers on every verse - it is really interesting. You may of seen the series it is called "The Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture" - it is worth looking at. I actually got them brand new at a used bookstore and the owner of the store wanted to get rid of them - 10 bucks a book - normally 40.

mjrhealth · Nov 11, 2010

If you run from one church to another church each day, each church will give you there version og God and Jesus, if you ran from one priest or pastor etc to another you wil get there version, there understanding of who God, Jesus are. if you sit down and read the bible from cover to cover for the next 1000 years, you wi;; only get your understanding of who God and Jesus are, but if you go to Jesus, listen to the Holy spirit, they can only ever give you one version of Jesus and God for they are in complete agreement with one another.

In His Love

I never becoame a christian to learn the bible, I became a christain because Jesus wants me to become like Him

SaberTruth · Nov 11, 2010

The place to go to learn about translations is http://betterbibles.com/ .

bigape · Nov 11, 2010

mjrhealth said:
If you run from one church to another church each day, each church will give you there version og God and Jesus, if you ran from one priest or pastor etc to another you wil get there version, there understanding of who God, Jesus are. if you sit down and read the bible from cover to cover for the next 1000 years, you wi;; only get your understanding of who God and Jesus are, but if you go to Jesus, listen to the Holy spirit, they can only ever give you one version of Jesus and God for they are in complete agreement with one another.

In His Love

I never becoame a christian to learn the bible, I became a christain because Jesus wants me to become like Him

The Bible says what it means and means what it says. There is only one truth, found in it.
Some Churches or preachers are better than others, based upon how closely they stick to “the Bible”. (This is our part of the process.)
If a pastor or a Church adds to or takes away from God’s Word, than go somewhere else.

Jesus is the Word, made flesh; And every human instrument used by God to give us God’s Word, were moved by the Holy Spirit as they wrote it.
God Gave us the Bible, so that we can know the truth, so that we can know, which preacher or Church are actually telling us the truth.

It’s Satan’s lie, that the Bible is so incomprehensible, that no one knows "the truth".
Find a Church, that preaches the Bible and make it your Church home.

Or, believe Satan’s lie, that noone knows the truth, stay in Spiritual darkness.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.......
“I never becoame a christian to learn the bible, I became a christain because Jesus wants me to become like Him “

It sounds like your problem is, you don’t want to take the time to study the Bible......
2 Timothy 2:15
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

We become like Jesus, by learning the Bible.

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