Hebrews 10:26-31

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Tong2020

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John 5:24 in the version that you have it translated in is in contradiction to 2 Corinthians 5:10.

There is no contradiction to other scriptures when you read it in the kjv, however.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Then let’s go to the translated Greek text:

krisis: a decision, judgment

That is the Greek word used in that verse

But even with your preferred version, it does not change the truth that those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ will no longer be judged unto condemnation unto death. For they have passed from death to life.

Tong
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Tong2020

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I believe that he is saying that he will both:

1) be judged to be a sheep or goat; and,

2) be a judge of whether others are sheep or goats, if he is judged to be a sheep.

I am pretty certain that he believes he will be judged as being a sheep rather than a goat.
The he had missed the question altogether. To clarify then, I was asking what he thinks would be his judgment, whether be separated along with the sheep , or along with the goat, or if he thinks he is one among the brethren of Christ.

Item number 2 is not found in the passage unless one is reading that into the passage.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Another question: is it even possible to walk uprightly without the Holy Spirit?

It seems to me that even the Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11).

So, Zechariah and Elizabeth may have been included among the Old Testament prophets in that they may have had the Spirit of Christ.

Obviously, Cornelius gave alms to the poor apart from the Holy Spirit; because his introduction to Peter was because he did alms. And he also received the Holy Spirit as the result of Peter's preaching that day.

So that throws a wrench in the works for me.

In Acts of the Apostles 5:32, do we receive the Holy Spirit because we have obeyed or do we obey because we have received the Holy Ghost?

I had always felt that it was the latter.

But apparently, Cornelius received the Holy Ghost as a result of having obeyed; for if he had not obeyed the Lord in giving alms, the angel would not have appeared and told him to call for Peter.
<<<Another question: is it even possible to walk uprightly without the Holy Spirit?>>>

That’s what we can find in scriptures. There is no reason for me to think otherwise. But I am inclined to think that faith is involved.

<<<So, Zechariah and Elizabeth may have been included among the Old Testament prophets in that they may have had the Spirit of Christ.>>>

Well, Elizabeth was not said to be a prophetess. Besides, your guess would mean that either they have the indwelling Holy Spirit which is not taught in scriptures or that every time they did a righteous deed that the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps then you can consider Paul before his conversion. Or Nathanael perhaps.

<<<In Acts of the Apostles 5:32, do we receive the Holy Spirit because we have obeyed or do we obey because we have received the Holy Ghost?>>>

Firstly, the passage does not answer your question. What the passage is saying is that the Holy Spirit is a witness as well as the apostles to what they just told the high priest and the council.

But to answer your question, my reading of scriptures points to the latter.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Do you think that the word of the Lord did evil to Cornelius, Zechariah, and Elizabeth?

Because apparently they were righteous, but did not have the Holy Spirit.

But they walked uprightly; and therefore I believe that the word of the Lord did good to them.

Are you still going to contend that the word of the Lord would not do good to them because they didn't have the Holy Spirit?

Mic 2:7, O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?
In my reply post#1400:

We need not guess. We can learn from scriptures that it did them good.

But I think it’s not simply because they were righteous. As far as we know, they were righteous. But we don’t know what else is there to it.

Did I contend that which you say I contend? Please do not misrepresent me or put words into my mouth. I hope it was just an honest mistake.

Tong
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Ferris Bueller

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I’ll not mention Cornelius anymore then. But is Cornelius not enough to show that there are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit?

@Ferris Bueller mentioned Zechariah and Elizabeth. Thanks FerrisB!

Abel. Noah. Job. I guess that should be enough.

Tong
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This is my favorite example:

47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, He said of him, “Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is no deceit.” John 1:47


,
 

Ferris Bueller

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I just gave that to @justbyfaith.

Tong
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I see that now. I can't read every post, or read them all the way through because of limited time. Particularly ones I'm not directly involved in.

I learned about those who were righteous under the law from our Messianic brethren years ago in a forum. We all have a piece of the truth that contributes to the education of the whole body.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I was asking what he thinks would be his judgment, whether be separated along with the sheep , or along with the goat, or if he thinks he is one among the brethren of Christ.

Item number 2 is not found in the passage unless one is reading that into the passage.
I am a sheep, and, my big brother is Jesus.

Hebrews 6:9-10 contains the two things—being judged a sheep (a saved person), and being among the brethren of Christ—that are not obvious in the Matthew 25:31-46 passage.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

They are saved brethren, and they are sheep who minister to Christ and his brethren, just as the sheep in Matthew 25:40 ministered to Christ by ministering to Christ's brothers.
 

Ferris Bueller

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If indeed they did not have the Holy Spirit, the word of the Lord did good to them even though they did not have the Holy Spirit; the word of the Lord did good to them simply because they were righteous.
James tells us the doer of the word is the one who is blessed in what he does.......

25 ...the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does. James 1:25​

As you know there are people forgiven in a 'water only' relationship with God, and there are those who are forgiven in a 'Spirit' relationship with God (John 3:5). I don't think the problem for the 'water only' believer is that they can not be blessed in the good they do. I think their problem is they will have difficulty in doing the good that solicits the blessing, because they don't have the Spirit.

What exactly the nature of the Spirit was in the old covenant among God's 'water only' people is hard to pin down. But that is what the John 3 passage about water and Spirit says....

8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going.” John 3:8
And so we have this frustration of figuring out how it is that there are righteous people who may have had access to the Spirit before the Spirit was sent after the resurrection, but which represents a different kind of relationship(?) with the Spirit than we enjoy in the New Covenant.

Since Zechariah and Elizabeth were of the tribe of Levi they probably had a special ministry of the Spirit, which could explain how they were righteous. But how did Nathanael secure such praise from Jesus without the Spirit, assuming he didn't have the Spirit? I
try not to stress about it—the wind of the Spirit comes and goes as it wills, invisible to the eyes of man except for the way it stirs the dust of the earth and sways the trees of the land.
 

Ferris Bueller

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<<>It's okay to judge people's behavior. >>>

That’s why I judge the behavior, not the person.

<<<Don't worry about being wrong about if they are really saved or not >>>

And why would I not when judging wrongly is a sin? Should the Christian not worry about that because he’s doing it with good intention? I don’t have such mind.

<<<You're only responsible for protecting yourself and the church against the leaven of fake believers and teachers in this life.>>>

That sounds justifying and a good intention. However, somebody in me tells me not to do that in a way that is against my faith and against good conscience.

Tong
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Then you're saying you would not do what Jesus said to do in regard to the brother who won't repent.....

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:17

See, it's not a matter of passing eternal judgment on the person. It's a matter of treating them as an unbeliever, because they're acting like an unbeliever. It's up to them to show themselves to be a believer, if they really are. I'm not going to accept any criticism for doing what Jesus said to do with people who don't act like a believer. The burden is on them to demonstrate they are a believer. The burden is not on me to treat them as a believer when they fail to demonstrate that they are a believer. No lost sleep here on that issue. But the door is always open to receive them if they repent and start acting like a believer, like the sinning fellow at Corinth who was kicked out of the church but who later repented and was received by the church.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I did not mean to say only for you. Yes, there are some perhaps who are like you. But there are some also who are not like you, who find true comfort, more than anything else, in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person. That to them is much much more than enough.
If that's all you got then that's all you got (not 'you', just anybody). And I'm not going to take that away from anybody. But it's clear in the Bible that you know for sure that you are saved by the witness of the Spirit in how you act. On the flip side, even if your heart condemns you your righteous actions still testify that you belong to the truth, despite what you're feeling in your heart......

18 ...let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this (our works) we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20 Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things. 1 John 3:18-19

So you can see that our feelings are not the supreme assurance of salvation. Your changed life is. That doesn't mean you're not saved until you have that assurance of salvation from your works. It simply means you know for sure by your works that you are really saved. The changed life bypasses all the potential for the deceit that thoughts and emotions and false teachings may provide when seeking assurance that you are really saved. The changed life tells it like it is. That's why God will judge us at the great judgment as having faith or not by how we lived in this life, not by what we proclaimed with our mouth (Lord, Lord!...).
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Why do you say and believe that? Don’t you believe these scriptures?

John 5:24“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Tong
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He's saying the believer will not come into condemnation. I know it can be confusing because the word 'judgment' is used in reference to both, being examined, and being condemned, based on context. Here's an example.....

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

You can see here that judgment in this context is referring to being examined for whether you did good or bad, and then, based on the result of that examination receiving what is due. We just have to understand from the whole teaching in the Bible about judgement and condemnation whether 'judgement' in any context is talking about being examined or discerned, or being condemned. John 5:24 is about the judgment of condemnation. 2 Corinthians 5:10 above, for example, is about the judgment of examination. After which there may or may not be a judgment of condemnation.
 

Ferris Bueller

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No, they don’t. How could false believers and hypocrites find true comfort in Him whom they do not believe or truly believe? If they somehow claim they do, that could be nothing but false comfort, and pretense.
That's what I'm saying. It's a false comfort. But a comfort nonetheless. Unbelievers and fake believers major in this kind of (false) comfort because they go by feelings and thoughts. I have rarely encountered an unsaved person or hypocrite in the church who did not have some kind of comfort that they were 'okay' with God in salvation. They would not be able to derive that sense of (false) comfort if they knew that genuine assurance of salvation comes from a changed life, not from what you feel or think.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Firstly, the Christian knows his heart, whether he truly have put faith in Christ.
But as I showed in a post before this, John talks about the Christian who's heart is condemning them. So, no, not all Christians know if they truly have put faith in Christ. John says the truly saved person overcomes that condemnation of heart by the testimony of their righteous life. Feelings just aren't a good measure of whether or not one is really saved. The evidence of a changed life is the irrefutable assurance that you are really saved, despite what your feelings and thoughts may or may not be assuring you about your salvation.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Perhaps for those still babes in Christ, yes. But for mature ones, I have already explained that they find true comfort in Christ more than anything else.

I understand and get youur concern. But you know, those who are born of the Spirit, born of God, will grow in the Spirit unto maturity in the Lord. That’s where they naturally would grow to be. And for him to grow, after feeding with milk, he must feed on meat.

Faith is tested, but not by us. It is God who tests our faith just like He tested Abraham’s. He tests it not that He don’t know if our faith is genuine or not, strong or weak. Rather it is for our sake that God tests our faith. So we see, faith is tested to be proven genuine and sincere, not really by good works, but by being put in a very difficult situation, similar to the cases of Job, Abraham, the apostles, and many others who went through severe persecutions to the point of death. Their faith was proven genuine and sincere in it endured and persevered until their last dying breath.

What would you choose, if you had to choose, would you want God to test your faith like them, or would you rather strive to grow in the Spirit by feeding on God’s unto maturity?
There are specific works that give more definitive assurance of salvation than others. For example, love for an enemy who persecutes you. The really hard stuff we are to do as believers is especially useful in giving us assurance that we are in fact very much saved. Recently, I have been amazed at my response to certain hurtful wrongs that have been committed against me. Spiritually, I feel like the 15 year old kid looking at himself in the mirror amazed at how his muscles have grown and how he's looking more and more like his big brother that he looks up to who can whip anybody.
 

Tong2020

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I am a sheep, and, my big brother is Jesus.

Hebrews 6:9-10 contains the two things—being judged a sheep (a saved person), and being among the brethren of Christ—that are not obvious in the Matthew 25:31-46 passage.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

They are saved brethren, and they are sheep who minister to Christ and his brethren, just as the sheep in Matthew 25:40 ministered to Christ by ministering to Christ's brothers.
Let’s go consider that passage once again.

31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdomprepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I wasnaked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Firstly, that is clearly a judgment of nations, not individuals.

Second, there are three distinct groups involved. One is that on his right, consisting of all sheep nations. Two is that on his left, consisting of all goat nations. Three is that group of people consisting of Jesus’ brethren.

Third, that is a judgment according to works, not behavior nor belief.

Fourth, only Jesus Christ is judging or is the judge.

Fifth, there is no judgment of angels.

Sixth, faith was never mentioned nor considered.

So, how does that go with scriptures:

1. that says Christians will judge the world and angels?
2. that says that Christians shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life?

and how do you answer this question:

3. why was faith not considered when salvation is by faith?

Tong
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Behold

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you have to hold unswervingly to the promise to be saved.
.

Look at what you just said, and try to see the heresy..

Here is what you said.......i'll paraphrase.....>"if i do something, i keep myself saved".

"if i hold unto the promise".. then i keep myself saved.

Do you see that you have shifted you faith from Christ, into "self saving by holding unto".
Thats WORKS.

See that?
That is not faith in Christ.
THat is = "as long as i hold on, i keep myself out of hell".

Thats "falling from Grace".
 
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Tong2020

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Then you're saying you would not do what Jesus said to do in regard to the brother who won't repent.....

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:17

See, it's not a matter of passing eternal judgment on the person. It's a matter of treating them as an unbeliever, because they're acting like an unbeliever. It's up to them to show themselves to be a believer, if they really are. I'm not going to accept any criticism for doing what Jesus said to do with people who don't act like a believer. The burden is on them to demonstrate they are a believer. The burden is not on me to treat them as a believer when they fail to demonstrate that they are a believer. No lost sleep here on that issue. But the door is always open to receive them if they repent and start acting like a believer, like the sinning fellow at Corinth who was kicked out of the church but who later repented and was received by the church.
Matthew 18:15“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like aheathen and a tax collector.

Context. That is not about judging the person concerning his salvation nor judging his behavior. So, if not, then what is the relevance of the passage to what we are talking about?

It’s about church discipline for a sinning brethren who refuses to be corrected.


Tong
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Tong2020

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If that's all you got then that's all you got (not 'you', just anybody). And I'm not going to take that away from anybody. But it's clear in the Bible that you know for sure that you are saved by the witness of the Spirit in how you act. On the flip side, even if your heart condemns you your righteous actions still testify that you belong to the truth, despite what you're feeling in your heart......

18 ...let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this (our works) we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20 Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things. 1 John 3:18-19

So you can see that our feelings are not the supreme assurance of salvation. Your changed life is. That doesn't mean you're not saved until you have that assurance of salvation from your works. It simply means you know for sure by your works that you are really saved. The changed life bypasses all the potential for the deceit that thoughts and emotions and false teachings may provide when seeking assurance that you are really saved. The changed life tells it like it is. That's why God will judge us at the great judgment as having faith or not by how we lived in this life, not by what we proclaimed with our mouth (Lord, Lord!...).
Witness of the Holy Spirit in how we act? Can’t quite get that. But here’s what I found in scriptures.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

And nobody is arguing that feelings are the supreme assurance of salvation. That’s a strawman. The point of the passage is really not about assurance of salvation. The major concern of this passage is to encourage obedient and active love in the church. The meaning is that, by demonstrating love, we gain assurance that we are walking in the truth, and we quiet our hearts when they accuse us of being guilty for not doing more.

But anyway, if you are assured and comforted by your good works, that you are saved, that’s good for you and the people who see good works as the assurance for their salvation as well. There’s nothing wrong I see with that, for as long as they know that they are saved not because of that and don’t get to boast of them.

As for me, while I continue in active love, I find true comfort and assurance from Jesus Christ, in His promises, in His words, in His love, in His faithfulness, and as a whole, in His person.

Tong
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Tong2020

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He's saying the believer will not come into condemnation. I know it can be confusing because the word 'judgment' is used in reference to both, being examined, and being condemned, based on context. Here's an example.....

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

You can see here that judgment in this context is referring to being examined for whether you did good or bad, and then, based on the result of that examination receiving what is due. We just have to understand from the whole teaching in the Bible about judgement and condemnation whether 'judgement' in any context is talking about being examined or discerned, or being condemned. John 5:24 is about the judgment of condemnation. 2 Corinthians 5:10 above, for example, is about the judgment of examination. After which there may or may not be a judgment of condemnation.
Let’s check the translated original Greek text of John 5:24

krisis: a decision, judgment

That is the Greek word used in that verse. A different Greek word is used for condemnation, that is, katakrisis.

But even with your preferred translation, it does not change the truth that those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ will no longer be judged or that they had already been effectively been judged, and the passage states why, because they have passed from death to life. Notice “passed” is a pass happening and done, finished. Also, the passage itself had clearly declared that “the genuine believer has eternal life”.

Tong
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