Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

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Renniks

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Free will deniers make no sense.

You come on here, trying to *convince* others to leave an idea you disagree with. Except, if your idea nobody-has-freewill beliefs are correct, then nobody can change their ideas-- God can only force the change. So why come on here preaching? Wouldn't your time be better spent asking God to force more people to follow him?
Only that is pointless too, because pray does not do anything in his theology of everything being predestined.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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It's not that God does not have the power of predestination or the power to kill or cause great suffering....it's a matter of how much of it. It's not like Christ and the Apostles walked around and said, "Don't worry about it, you are either going to hell or heaven. It's already been predetermined? There was an urgency to get the word out and for people to choose to believe. They did not go and have a barbeque and wait for people to believe, they worked at it. Faith is a choice, without free-will it means nothing.

And you cannot escape the fact that unless God intends to change something, if he knew how it was all going to work out, there was no need for Predestinations. But this is not what this is about, because it just does not pan out. These people got a thing for being the "elect" it was the same thing with the Nazis, we are the elect race! The chosen ones! It is a self edifying religion. But they give the explanation that God is just locking down what He already knows is going to happen. It is a lie! It does not make sense. It does not fit into the storyline of the Bible. And it insinuates that God is either a monster or Satan.

Okie doke. Me, however, I'm not going to ignore the obvious Scripture, through the entire Bible, that proves God's Omnicient Plan. Just because you are unaware of His Mysterious Plan, doesn't mean that I'm wrong. But . . . have a great day!
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Why would we be told this other than giving us the choice of who to let control us? Which can only happen if we have free will.

But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.

Part of the Plan of God is that a believer, at least generally, must hear the Word of God. This is why we preach and teach. We preach and teach because we are commanded to do so, and we do so not knowing who is of the Elect and who is not. When we are given a choice to choose the Lord, we are being preached the Word, and as the text below indicates, those who hear will believe (if they are of the Elect).

Romans 10:14-17 ESV - 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Those who are not awakened will find the Word of God foolishness . . . and these Words that I am sharing are being viewed as foolishness. Makes a person think about things . . .
 

Mantis

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When you come into the hands of the living God, our free will becomes scary because we realize that our will is going to end in ruin if left unchecked.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Only that is pointless too, because pray does not do anything in his theology of everything being predestined.

Sorry that you guys are upset. I'm just relaying what's in the Bible. I don't need anyone to believe me, nor am I attempting to convince anyone of anything. One thing I've learned is this: "christians" normally aren't interested in learning anything, for they all believe that they have "arrived." So, I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Or, am I in error for saying this too?
 
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2nd Timothy Group

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When you come into the hands of the living God, our free will becomes scary because we realize that our will is going to end in ruin if left unchecked.

And that's just it. Most "christians" have never met God, nor have they a Transformation story, nor can they testify of what it is like to live under the Curse of the Sin Nature and compare it to a life without that Curse. Who can testify to the difference of life of being Cursed and no longer being Cursed? Who can tell us about the difference? Who? Is there one? Who can tell us what this difference is?
 

Grailhunter

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Okie doke. Me, however, I'm not going to ignore the obvious Scripture, through the entire Bible, that proves God's Omnicient Plan. Just because you are unaware of His Mysterious Plan, doesn't mean that I'm wrong. But . . . have a great day!
It is not mysterious what you are proposing is that God is evil.
 

dev553344

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You would think freewill was written in every chapter and every paragraph of the bible, in fact there are just a few mentions in the OT and these all have regard to freewill offerings because God never demands back any gifts He has given.

You cannot read any book or pamphlet on the subject of science without you soon encounter an affirmation of evolution, it is pure brainwash and it works.

You cannot read hardly any book or pamphlet about christianity without encountering an affirmation of human freewill, it is pure brainwash.

Jesus never spoke of it, nor did any of His apostles.

There is everywhere the choice obey and live or perish.

This is not freewill, if we obey we will be doing God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.

What makes freewill impossible is the penalty for non obedience i.e. death. When the devil said "you will not die you will be like God ..." He not only made God out to be a liar but he tricked them into believing they had freewill.

He still works this deception today.
You make a good argument but still incorrect. We have freedom to choose, key word is choose, which implies freedom to choose:

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I would say the reason the bible doesn't speak about freewill is because no ancient person would have dreamed that they had freewill.

Choice is not freewill

We don't set out the options or determine the outcome of our choices.

A&E had the choice you and I don't, we are BOUND to sin and we are bound to die. All the supposed "freewill" in the world will not prevent either.

The bible teaches not that we have freewill but that we are in bondage, slaves until Christ sets us free. What part of slavery spells freewill in your opinion.
Yet even then, we are free to chose god and free to do evil

as scripture said, even gentiles (who were lost) chose to do what the law said even though they do not have the law.

one can not have any type of relationship with anyone apart from free will, if we have no free will, we are robots or puppets, who can only do what we are programmed or forced to do.

our God did not creat or make us this way, and he came to earth to dispel this lie of Satan, and made a fool of him
 

Eternally Grateful

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Quite so, we may choose who we are to serve, who will be our master. But we will serve.

And we can't even choose God unless God proffers to us the choice, Big Chief Sitting Bull never got the choice. And even when God does give us the choice we can't enact that choice unless He first sets us free.

Man's condition since the fall is dire.
Oh he had a choice, when he stand in front of God he will be judged because of Hs will to deny God, and serve the God he made, Romans 1 makes this clear. God allowed him to remain in unbelief, even though he knew, thus he is without excuse.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Whom God knew He also predestinated ...

If the devil had a christian in his lap he would teach him that he had freewill.

All that stuff about mind control, we are not talking about machines or aliens or even men predetermining our lives we are talking about God who knows what we think before we think it, who has counted the hairs upon our heads, who knows us right well and who loves us with an everlasting love.

... don't you trust God to order your life?
SMH

yep. Whom God forknew,

he did not chose people randomly, he chose based on his will, that all who see and believe will have eternal life

the people given the right to become children of God are those who recieve him, not those born again and given the ability to receive him.

You have been lead astray, and your prideful strawman are hurting your own cause
 

Eternally Grateful

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Sorry. But . . . I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just a reporter telling what the Bible has to say. A sober reading of the entire Bible should lead anyone to the same conclusion. There's no way around the fact that God has a Plan and that it WILL be fulfilled regardless of the power that asleep humans think that they possess.
What power do I posses other than the power God gave me?

he gave me the power to chose whom I will serve. And gave me the power to receive him I did not conjur this up on my own, but I still chose freely to do it
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You nailed it! True Christians want nothing good
to do with making their own choices because human choices and reasoning leads to trouble. Awesome!
Yet I am thankful Abraham chose to leave his fathers house, Moses chose to return and free Israel, Noah chose to spend 120 years building an ark. Joseph chose to take mary as his own, the disciples chose to serve Jesus and me knowing what it will cost them.

it is NT free will that is bad, it is chosing the wrong things that cause things to go bad
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Actually, He found them and told them to follow him, and some dropped their nets without question. Yes, they did follow Him much like a puppet.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

I've got about 270 Scriptural references to the control of God. Our God controls entire nations, thus controlling one mind is nothing.
He chose Judas two.

you forget about Gods omniscience, it gives him a perspective we do Not have, and he uses that to pit people where he needs them knowing they will chose to do what he needs
 
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Renniks

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Part of the Plan of God is that a believer, at least generally, must hear the Word of God. This is why we preach and teach. We preach and teach because we are commanded to do so, and we do so not knowing who is of the Elect and who is not. When we are given a choice to choose the Lord, we are being preached the Word, and as the text below indicates, those who hear will believe (if they are of the Elect).

Romans 10:14-17 ESV - 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Those who are not awakened will find the Word of God foolishness . . . and these Words that I am sharing are being viewed as foolishness. Makes a person think about things . . .
If there's no free will thinking about things is pointless. Faith is a choice.
‘Where is your faith?’ he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement, they asked one another, ‘Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him.’”

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Verses that show election is conditional:

  • Matthew 11:28-30 – Salvation is an invite to those who will come.
  • John 3:16
  • John 4:42
  • John 6:40
  • John 6:51 – Must eat of the bread of life to receive benefit.
  • Acts 13:39
  • Romans 1:16-17
  • Romans 5:1-2 – It is through faith that we are made a part of Christ.
  • Romans 9:30
  • Ephesians 1:13
  • 1 Timothy 4:10 – Jesus died for all, but there is a specific subset that receives the benefits, namely those who believe.
  • 1 Peter 1:1-2 – Election is according to God’s foreknowing who shall believe.
Verses that show the atonement is available for all:

  • Isaiah 53:6 – The iniquity of us all was put on Christ.
  • Matthew 11:28-30 – Any who some to Christ are welcome.
  • Matthew 18:14 – The Father does not wish that any should perish (anti predestined-reprobation).
  • John 1:7 – Jesus intended for all, wants all to believe.
  • John 1:29
  • John 3:16-17
  • John 6:33, 51
  • John 12:47
  • Romans 3:23-24 – All have sinned and all have access to justification in Christ Jesus.
  • Romans 5:6 – Christ died for the ungodly. Since all are ungodly, Christ died for all.
  • Romans 5:15 – Since sin spread to all, Christ’s atonement is meant for all.
  • Romans 10:13 – Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
  • 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 – All died, yet Christ died for all.
  • 1 Timothy 2:3-6 – God desires all men to be saved, and gave Himself for all
  • 1 Timothy 4:10
  • Titus 2:11 – God’s necessary grace that leads to repentance appears to all.
  • Hebrews 2:9 – Jesus tasted death for everyone.
  • Hebrews 10:10 – Christ offered once for all.
  • 2 Peter 3:9
  • 1 John 4:14
  • 1 John 2:2 – Jesus is the propitiation, not just for believers, but for the whole world.
  • John 4:42
  • Revelation 22:17
 

Renniks

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Sorry that you guys are upset. I'm just relaying what's in the Bible. I don't need anyone to believe me, nor am I attempting to convince anyone of anything. One thing I've learned is this: "christians" normally aren't interested in learning anything, for they all believe that they have "arrived." So, I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Or, am I in error for saying this too?
Who is upset? I just do not understand how anyone can deny that the Bible confirms free will. The " everything is predestined" crowd make all of God's commands unnecessary. If God is causing everything, we have no choice in anything and God causes our sin. That's absurd and fatalistic.
 
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2nd Timothy Group

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And gave me the power to receive him I did not conjure this up on my own, but I still chose freely to do it

Okie Doke. I'm glad that my God didn't give me that choice because anyone with the Sin Nature cannot please God. It is impossible.

Romans 8:8 CSB - "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The God I worship, the God of the Bible, lifts this Curse so that such a choice can . . . and will be . . . made.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

I don't know how anyone could ever ignore these kinds of passages that are scattered throughout the Bible . . . but "christians" do.

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Who is upset? I just do not understand how anyone can deny that the Bible confirms free will. The " everything is predestined" crowd make all of God's commands unnecessary. If God is causing everything, we have no choice in anything and God causes our sin. That's absurd and fatalistic.

Well of course! You can pick and choose all the Scripture that you want, but for some reason, you're not acknowledging the passages that the Lord is giving you. Why? Who knows. Good luck.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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If there's no free will thinking about things is pointless. Faith is a choice.

We are Enabled to choose. We are Enabled to Obey. We are Enabled to suffer. We are Enabled to Pray. We are Enabled. We are Enabled. We are Enabled.

If we are Enabled to do certain deeds, prepared in advance in fact, how is the COURSE of our lives not under the Lord's total control?

Take care. I have no more left to offer. I'm not interested in going round and round where no one ever changes their beliefs. We're all Chiefs looking around for Indians to chat with. Honestly . . . that bores me. We should all be Indians of the Same Blessed Tribe . . . working with one another.
 
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