Your Thoughts: Are The NT/OT Gods "Different"?

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charity

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Hello again, @Hidden In Him,

At the end of the Old Testament, in Malachi, warning was given of the wrath to come. The promise in that same prophetic book was of the One Who was to come, and the one who would herald His coming. Then came the gospel record which offered the means of escape from that wrath, with the message of the gospel of the Kingdom first of all, with the intent that Israel should be saved and take up their divinely appointed role as Priests unto God to the nations. Their repentance would have brought Christ back to the earth, and the judgement of God taking place and all that is foretold in the book of Revelation would have followed.

The New Testament was God reaching out to mankind with the means of escape from the day of wrath which was to come, and the restoration of Israel. This condescension on God's part was an act of supreme grace on the part of a Holy, Righteous and yet Just God, Who sought to redeem mankind, through Christ, for He was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Like a human ark into which mankind could come to escape the judgement to come and the wrath that will be poured out.

Forgive this, for it is a gross simplification, with so much left out which is vital to us, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ following the rejection of Israel of their Messiah and King. However, I believe this explains the difference we see in the way that we perceive God in the NT and the OT. The New Testament is a message of salvation by God's abundant grace and the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and his sacrificial offering of Himself is a reflection of the character of God, which could not have been shown in any other way.

May His Name be glorified among us, and Christ honoured!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Hidden In Him

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Do you not understand there are two LORD'S in the Bible? One of them is Baal or the Devil.

I do, only you would have to make the case that the God who instituted the Old Testament sacrifices was actually Baal, or one of the other foreign gods.
The pre-incarnate Jesus, the true God is unchanging. He will not take the little children on his knee in the New Testament and slaughter them in the Old Testament. So if you read of the LORD doing something Jesus would not do, you know it is the opposer.

I understand the argument that you are trying to make, but theologically this wouldn't be considered as sufficient proof. Theologians (including most here and others with far greater scholarship) would refute this on a large number of scriptural grounds as not fully comprehending the plan of God in His use of types and prophetic foreshadowings.

But THAT would be a massive discussion, so we may have to put that off for another time.

God bless, and good talking with you!
 

Cooper

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I do, only you would have to make the case that the God who instituted the Old Testament sacrifices was actually Baal, or one of the other foreign gods.


I understand the argument that you are trying to make, but theologically this wouldn't be considered as sufficient proof. Theologians (including most here and others with far greater scholarship) would refute this on a large number of scriptural grounds as not fully comprehending the plan of God in His use of types and prophetic foreshadowings.

But THAT would be a massive discussion, so we may have to put that off for another time.

God bless, and good talking with you!
It would not take any time at all. God abhors sacrifice. He cleared all the animals out of the temple because they were for sacrifice at Passover. It was an insult to Jesus who was soon to be the ultimate Sacrifice.

God would not institute something he hated. As there is only One true God, what other gods were they following. They were worshiping the pagan gods of the region along with the Egyptian gods they brought out of Egypt who they had worshiped for 400 years.

I do not know what is driving you, but whatever it is seek the Lord for the answer, and make sure you go to the right Lord and not some cultist teaching, similar to the false prophets in the Old Testament. Yes, they had their cults back then as well.

Do you have a Jewish background?

I will come back to you when I have had my supper.
.
 
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Cooper

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It's a difficult issue for the literalist interpretation. My explanation would be that humans wrote the Bible; the Hebrews had a distorted view of God back then. That explanation does not work if someone believes that every word in the Bible is equivalent to God's words. The only explanation I can see would be that genocide is not as bad as modern people believe it is; therefore, Hitler was not that bad of a guy compared to the literalist view of God. I may get attacked even for suggesting such a thing, but what other explanation is there? We just don't understand God's purpose for ordering genocide? It leaves us with the notion that genocide is not all that bad.
Was it God who ordered genocide? Remember the 6th commandment "Thou shall not kill (murder)."

And remember God is unchanging.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Had to go back and find your original statement:

"Remember Israel is a covenanted nation belonging to god for all time. The church is a non nation nation that belongs to jesus! In the Millenial Kingdom Israel will have a sacrificial system again in the temple and the gentile nations will come once a year with an offering to Jerusalem or face no rain for the year!."

I understand Him as dealing with two different sets of people, as stated before (Spiritual Israel vs. Carnal Israel). But I was questioning if it would be right to say He was exhibiting two different characters.

Well two different sets of character. We all do that in differing events or with different people under differing circumstances we reveal different aspects of our character. I think I was thrown off by your phrase "two different characters". To me I see two different aspects of His character.
 
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Hidden In Him

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* I do not believe that God's suggested difference of approach to mankind in the New Testament to that in the Old Testament is because He was speaking to two different classes of people. He was speaking to Israel in the Old Testament and to Israel way up through the Gospels and throughout the Acts period,until their final rejection of Christ.

Thanks, sister.

Yes, on this much we agree: He was speaking to Israel. Only again, we may be at odds on what segment of Israel He was "speaking to" in each. Let me say this: In the Old Testament He was essentially governing a nation of people in the flesh. As such, they needed to governed by law from the outside. What I mean by that is that He had to set up a system of laws and governing bodies to enforce them so that when the people broke those laws they would be answerable to the religious state, as it were. Not so in the New Testament. Here they had the laws written on their hearts, and while He did execute judgments upon them Himself, there was no state mechanism for trying to dictate policy over an entire race of people, including those who had no intention whatsoever of obeying God in their hearts but actually resented Him for it.
* Israel does have an earthly inheritance which is to be experienced in the land, and in the blessings of 'basket and store': but that had not changed in the New Testament, in that the preaching of John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Twelve sounded out the same gospel, 'Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand'. Only when Israel failed to repent was salvation sent to the Gentiles, independent of Israel, and the revelation of God made to Paul regarding the Church which is His (Christ's) Body given, which was designed to heal the rupture occasioned by that final rejection, and bring healing. This was made known by Paul from prison in the epistles to Ephesus, Philippi, Colossi and to Timothy, Titus and Philemon, though that latter was of a more personal nature.

Well yes. :) Only you have to keep in mind that He fully well knew the kingdom was not coming yet. He insinuated this to His disciples quite clearly in Matthew 24:45-51 and Matthew 25:1-13. He was telling them He might be a long time coming, and not to fall into lackadaisicalness and spiritual slumber. So yes, He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and that gospel still stands actually, only in either case, it will not be attained by those who only value the things of this life. In order to inherit the world to come, one must set aside ones "treasure" in this life, and that was the teaching throughout the entire New Testament.
* I hope this gives the clarity you require. You have been so busy answering all your responders that it not surprising that you needed clarification. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Thank you for the consideration. :) And that's a wonderful sign off to your post : )
 

WaterSong

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Then I was mistaken about the meaning of the word gnostic. Yes, I do believe in the true God and the imposter and this is why the true God revealed himself to the Jews.
.
Gnostics called, if I recall correctly, the OT deity the Demiurge.

Not that long ago a pastor gave a two part sermon that appears(ed) on YouTube for a time. I can't find it now. The title of which was something like, Was Satan the God of the Old Testament?
My sister told me about this and I didn't bother to get the link back then. However, she said it was quite a compelling argument. Now I think of it given we're discussing the seeming personality differences between God of the OT & that as defined by Jesus in the New.


Bible.org 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org
 
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WaterSong

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Greetings, Watersong!

If this post was addressed to me (not sure if it was or not), the problem with this argument is among other things that Paul was referencing when they came out of Egypt when he mentions their idolatry specifically (v.7), which was roughly a thousand years before the Babylonian captivity.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now, the argument could be made that they came out of Egypt as polytheists because they quickly turned to worshiping the Golden Calf. But the thing to keep in mind there is that all the Israelites who worshipped pagan gods in the wilderness snuffed it, i.e. were destroyed by God, yet they were destroyed as those who were formerly God's people. This is the driving point in Paul's discourse in 1 Corinthians 10; that if He destroyed those who belonged to Him in OT times then He could destroy his readers as well, so they would do well not to give themselves to the same sins or they could die for the same reasons.

The same point (that judgement and destruction came to those who formerly belonged to God) is made in Jude and 2 Peter:

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:3-6)


The first exile was in Babylon. 423 to 372 BCE

https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...over-the-Four-Exiles-of-the-Jewish-People.htm
 

WaterSong

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Sigh. Which LORD are you talking about.

Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Exo 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

Exo 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

Exo 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the
LORD.

Exo 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Exo 32:7 And the
LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Exo 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
This may help. :) The Golden Calf - My Jewish Learning
 

Hidden In Him

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It would not take any time at all. God abhors sacrifice. He cleared all the animals out of the temple because they were for sacrifice at Passover. It was an insult to Jesus who was soon to be the ultimate Sacrifice.

Ok, now come on. :) While I appreciate what you are attempting to make a case for, the focus of that account was on their turning a House of Prayer in to a place of monetary gain.
God would not institute something he hated. As there is only One true God, what other gods were they following. They were worshiping the pagan gods of the region along with the Egyptian gods they brought out of Egypt who they had worshiped for 400 years.

If you are referring to the sacrifices, He didn't hate the sacrifices. The primary feast of the Jews, the Passover, prophetically pointed to His own sacrifice.
Do you have a Jewish background?

No.
 

Hidden In Him

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So, we should kill LGBTQs (or any other people who allow sin) because they might corrupt us? I don't think you are on the right track here. If we do not murder such people, they might corrupt our children; if we are to emulate god's character (commit genocide), we should behave like that god. Are our current laws against genocide and against killing the LGBTQs superior to God's laws - I don't think so.

For this, Matt, I would direct you to Post#131 that I wrote to Charity.
If God is the same yesterday, today & forever, then genocide is still acceptable in God's eyes. I do not believe that about God.

Well again, my argument is that He was the same God but dealing with two entirely different situations. The Christ child has been born into the earth now. There is no longer a need to preserve a people in the flesh through whom He promised He would come, although God has nevertheless made promises to Abraham regarding His offspring that will come to pass as well.
I prefer to believe that the Bible was written by humans and humans are flawed. That's why the Israelites put such intentions into God's mind. But, the true God does not change, and He did not order genocide. God allows sinners to have an impact upon events, even as Democrats are effecting our current times. God allowed the Hebrew leadership to misunderstand God as wanting them to commit genocide. It is not that God changed, it is merely human error to have put such words into God's mouth.

Well I can understand your sympathies here, but the problem now becomes: If some of "the word of God" was written by corrupted men who were merely putting words in His mouth, how does one differentiate between the true word of God and the lies. Seems it then breaks down to personal opinion on what is truly the word of God in the Christian Bible and what is not. The Muslims do this, and it seems to me to be merely plundering the scriptures and subsuming them into their own belief system, which essentially would make Allah the true God of Christianity.

Plus, Matt, it would put my faith on precarious ground. I'm not sure I would want that for you or anyone else (let alone myself), if I were attempting to build my life upon a bulwark of religious truth.
 

Hidden In Him

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Well two different sets of character. We all do that in differing events or with different people under differing circumstances we reveal different aspects of our character. I think I was thrown off by your phrase "two different characters". To me I see two different aspects of His character.


Ok this I agree with. Yes, we reveal different sides of our character to others, depending on how CLOSE we are to them, and that is precisely what was going on with Christ in the New Testament. He was revealing deeper teaching to spiritual Israel - the spiritual meat of His word - that if they wanted to receive the ultimate blessings He had planned for them, it might well mean emulating Him in His sufferings and death for the sake of the gospel.

This is not something He told carnal Israel. For them it was, "An eye for an eye," and "You shall put away your wife with a slip of divorce." But for spiritual Israel He was teaching that justice, inheritance and reward were something we should be looking for in the next life, as opposed to counting on receiving it in this one.
 

Hidden In Him

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My sister told me about this and I didn't bother to get the link back then. However, she said it was quite a compelling argument. Now I think of it given we're discussing the seeming personality differences between God of the OT & that as defined by Jesus in the New.
Bible.org 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

Fairly well-written piece (I skimmed it). And yes, the Gnostics and what they were doing would have fallen under the following category in his article:

(7) Satan opposes Christians in disguise, often posing as a true believer and teacher of the truth.

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:1-5).

This passage was technically about the Essenes, but speaks to the dangers of all false religious systems that were competing against Christianity in the minds of men at the time.
Gnostics called, if I recall correctly, the OT deity the Demiurge.

He went by several titles, depending upon the particular Gnostic leader. Abraxas was possibly the most common, but there were several.
http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Gnostic

Nearly all were demons, or "angels," which is why their depictions were placed on magical amulets:

94b2199939936e4c865f2f259273fad8--internet-library-gospel-of-mary.jpg
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes, but the first captivity and deliverance from captivity was technically from Egypt, as your article states. Again, I'm driving this home because 1 Corinthians 10 was clearly an allusion to the exodus from Egypt. The cloud by day and pillar of fire by night (v.1), the Red Sea (v.1-2), manna (v.3) and water from the rock (v.4), etc.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
 
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WaterSong

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Yes, but the first captivity and deliverance from captivity was technically from Egypt, as your article states. Again, I'm driving this home because 1 Corinthians 10 was clearly an allusion to the exodus from Egypt. The cloud by day and pillar of fire by night (v.1), the Red Sea (v.1-2), manna (v.3) and water from the rock (v.4), etc.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Technically? Captivity is not conflated with exile.

(sic)"...The Patriarchs

Jewish history began about 4,000 years ago (c. 17th century BCE) with the patriarchs - Abraham, his son Isaac, and grandson Jacob. Documents unearthed in Mesopotamia, dating back to 2000-1500 BCE, corroborate aspects of their nomadic way of life as described in the Bible. The Book of Genesis relates how Abraham was summoned from Ur of the Chaldeans to Canaan to bring about the formation of a people with belief in the One God. When a famine spread through Canaan, Jacob (Israel), his 12 sons, and their families settled in Egypt, where their descendants were reduced to slavery and pressed into forced labor.Jewish history began 4,000 years ago"

[---]

Divided Monarchy
(sic)"...
The Kingdom of Israel, with its capital Samaria, lasted more than 200 years under 19 kings, while the Kingdom of Judah was ruled from Jerusalem for 400 years by an equal number of kings of the lineage of David. The expansion of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires brought first Israel and later Judah under foreign control.


The Kingdom of Israel was crushed by the Assyrians (722 BCE) and its people carried off into exile and oblivion. Over a hundred years later, Babylonia conquered the Kingdom of Judah, exiling most of its inhabitants as well as destroying Jerusalem and the Temple (586 BCE)."


The First Exile (586-538 BCE)
The Babylonian conquest brought an end to the First Temple period, but did not sever the Jewish people's connection to the Land of Israel. Sitting by the rivers of Babylon, the Jews pledged to remember their homeland:


If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy. (Psalms 137:5-6)


The exile to Babylonia, which followed the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE), marked the beginning of the Jewish Diaspora. There, Judaism began to develop a religious framework and way of life outside the Land, ultimately ensuring the people’s national survival and spiritual identity and imbuing it with sufficient vitality to safeguard its future as a nation.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/history/pages/history- biblical times.aspx

Perhaps what Paul is actually referencing when speaking of idolatry is the Jews stiff necked disobedience of God's law against idolatry, long after they left Egypt. Captivity in Babylon being a punishment for idolatry and disobedience against God.
 

Hidden In Him

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echnically? Captivity is not conflated with exile.

Ok, Ok. :). Technically, yes. Being "exiled" means being barred from one's own country, and Israel had no country yet at the time they were freed from Egyptian slavery. But that's why I worded it, "captivity and deliverance from captivity." You used the words Babylonian "captivity" in Post #113, which I responded to, and that got this whole ball rolling.

Lost in semantics, are we? :)
 
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WaterSong

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Ok, Ok. :). Technically, yes. Being "exiled" means being barred from one's own country, and Israel had no country yet at the time they were freed from Egyptian slavery. But that's why I worded it, "captivity and deliverance from captivity." You used the words Babylonian "captivity" in Post #113, which I responded to, and that got this whole ball rolling.

Lost in semantics, are we? :)
It would appear one of us is. :p (that would be U lol)

 
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