It's not about figuring it out. It's about those whose eyes are opened by The Father and His Son. Those who treat Christ's return as already history and our Lord's Book of Revelation as being past history, show they have their eyes closed by God. I don't yet know why it's that way for those, other than because of their not listening to God Himself in His Word, but instead listening to the doctrines of men, the mystery of iniquity that has been creeping into Christ's Body ever since the days of Christ's Apostles.
Pseudo Messiah
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It's not about figuring it out. It's about those whose eyes are opened by The Father and His Son. Those who treat Christ's return as already history and our Lord's Book of Revelation as being past history, show they have their eyes closed by God. I don't yet know why it's that way for those, other than because of their not listening to God Himself in His Word, but instead listening to the doctrines of men, the mystery of iniquity that has been creeping into Christ's Body ever since the days of Christ's Apostles.
You're the only person that (wrongfully) thinks end-times views can overpower and make void the saving work of Christ by faith.
I don't agree with either of you but good night, it's such an ignorant statement.
I don't think it's all that difficult to understand... All we have to do is pay attention and study...
1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)
2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)
Jer 46:10
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)
Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)
1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)
2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)
Jer 46:10
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)
Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)
I believe one view listens to the doctrines of men but it's not those that hold it as history.
Doctrines of men would be forcing definitions onto things that many in the early church saw as already fulfilled, in order to transform them into something future.
You do realize that none of those support what you're supporting, right?
Again, don't go beyond what's written.
Could there be multiple days of the Lord?
"Day of the Lord [in judgement on Jerusalem]"
"Day of the Lord [for his second coming]"?
What about:
"Day of Texus [Birthday 2010]"
"Day of Texus [Birthday 2011]"
There can be multiple days that belong to a person.
Of course, the Lord owns all days and thus every day belongs to him.
Doctrines of men would say these are all the same day. I'm not saying I believe that (I'm not saying what I believe in pertinence to these, I don't want a debate)-> I'm just saying that the Bible itself doesn't support what you're claiming- you're reading "future" assumptions into it.
Regardless, it's just something to think about. I really wasn't wanting to get into a debate here, I was just trying to say to look at what the text actually says, and approach it from a more neutral perspective verses a beginning "I want this to be future" bias.
The problem arises in that this man of sin has made many believe that the mark of the beast refers to him. (as well as that it yet to the future.)
This man of sin has already worked his deception on you and stands today as a world-wide organization claiming that multiple faiths with their discordant teachings are God's mouth piece.
And these multiple groups within the man of sin find themselves able to agree on the deception that says the number 666 refers to him and that it is yet to the future, but when it comes to the doctrines that first century Christians taught they not only disagree in many ways but even have a way to excuse their differences of doctrine.
If that is not woefully wrong, then we are permitted anything.
Infidelity to the original Christian truths is infidelity to Christ and a preaching therefore of a false Christ. That is harlotry and woefully wrong.
You do realize there were disagreements on end-times theory following the century after Christ, don't you? It's not clear cut to either side of the debate- anyone that makes that argument is a fool.
I'd like to see you try to demonstrate how a wrong interpretation of "man of sin" or "temple" would net veteran a ticket to hell. (Again I think both of you are wrong so I'm not taking sides on your interpretation).
Because I fail to see how either one question the deity or work of Christ.
I do indeed realize what you say about those end times disagreements back there after the first century. I have looked closely at those disagreements as a part of my own searching for truth. But then I came to realize that there was an easier and more reliable way. I will explain that way in a moment. But first I would like to say that using higher criticism to determine true doctrine was the worst thing to ever begin being practiced in the church. And I know many would disagree with me on that point as higher criticism is used as a platform in many Bible colleges. Be that as it may, I believe it is a dangerous way to search for truth.
Many disagreements were there in the first century, also. Therefore as a loyal follower of Christ and therefore willing to follow none but proved followers of Christ I look to the NT Bible writers and seek to pattern myself after their ways.
They had to deal with those that were teaching the very things that blew up into those second century larger disagreements.
I do not begin in the second century to try to untangle lies from the truth, because that would be like having a foundation problem and trying to patch it up working only with what was built over the top of it.
No disrespect meant, but this look at the foundation is what I have written about in this thread.
You may well find that my examination of it falls short in ways. So go back to the foundation and examine it closely and carefully for your self.
Don't dismiss it quickly. Ponder and pray about it and beg God to open your eyes of understanding so that you see with clarity what he wants you to see as is actually what is written.
I do not tell you these things because I am against you. I tell you these things because I am for Christ.
I never said it would guarantee him a ticket to hell.
I would not tell anyone such a horrid thing.
To be woefully wrong is to have conclusions that lead to woes along the way as God helps us correct those conclusions.
Those woes are not even necessarily caused of God but by mere virtue of the things the lack in insight and understanding allows one to become involved with.
Mental self deception often becomes more solid as one takes in more and more incorrect information. And that in itself is woe to us.
Half of communication is perception. That is also a factor in people's interpretations of scripture.
You've said in the past they've taken the mark of the beast and following his ways... Now what, exactly, do you think we're to take that to mean?
I think you are to take that to mean that you are human just as I myself am and we humans do get gullible at times.
Our human gullibility is not what God condemns. That is what he seeks to help us with. If he condemned our gullibility he would not have been so patient all of these years with that field of tender wheat-like ones influenced of tares.
I respect many of your comments 'Text Us' but right now it is beginning to seem that you are picking with a desire to see fault rather than seeking to understand. Of course, I hope that impression as I perceive it is wrong. I too am human.
I guess that's fair enough- my opinion is that those that take the mark aren't saved. So when you said that- to me it's you calling veteran damned for his beliefs.
I was going to reply to that statement but then I realized you might think Christians CAN take the mark of the beast which is a disagreement I won't go into.
The Pseudo Messiah is an expression I have used for decades. I for many years published that expression on YA and BD sites frequently. So we certainly have no problem there.
If I had to choose one place that is pivotal to our differences I would choose Matthew 13:43 "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
It is the education that God has given these righteous one's and the gloriously bright message they bear because of that education, that causes them to shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
When Jesus brought that glorious light into the world many reacted to it by weeping at the message and gnashing their teeth upon Jesus. That is what Matthew 13:42 compares to.
Matthew 26:65 "Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy."
That Pseudo Christ with a deceiving measure of success proceeds to change times and seasons just as Daniel 2:21 says God does. In that and more ways he stands up publicly in the temple of God exhibiting himself as though he be God. He exhibits this by his presumptuousness, by his presuming to know things that God only knows.
And in that he misleads people to make them think that what they look for lay ahead when in fact it is right upon them and they just cannot see it. And that is why God sent his glorious light into the world that a chain of light bearing humans would begin (Christ's body, his true Church).
The flesh is what we see split and divided. The activity of the flesh view of the church has served to conceal (like a protection of flight into the wilderness Rev. 12:6) so that Satin has not been able to identify all of God's true seed and destroy it.
A lot of that is my poor skills at expressing myself.
I agree that they cannot receive that mark and be saved but I see their receiving that mark as at the point that have fully and whole-heartedly embraced the deception it is presenting to them. At that point I do not believe that they can be moved to repent it.
If I had to choose one place that is pivotal to our differences I would choose Matthew 13:43 "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
It is the education that God has given these righteous one's and the gloriously bright message they bear because of that education, that causes them to shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
When Jesus brought that glorious light into the world many reacted to it by weeping at the message and gnashing their teeth upon Jesus. That is what Matthew 13:42 compares to.
Matthew 26:65 "Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy."
That Pseudo Christ with a deceiving measure of success proceeds to change times and seasons just as Daniel 2:21 says God does. In that and more ways he stands up publicly in the temple of God exhibiting himself as though he be God. He exhibits this by his presumptuousness, by his presuming to know things that God only knows.
And in that he misleads people to make them think that what they look for lay ahead when in fact it is right upon them and they just cannot see it. And that is why God sent his glorious light into the world that a chain of light bearing humans would begin (Christ's body, his true Church).
The flesh is what we see split and divided. The activity of the flesh view of the church has served to conceal (like a protection of flight into the wilderness Rev. 12:6) so that Satin has not been able to identify all of God's true seed and destroy it.
A lot of that is my poor skills at expressing myself.
I agree that they cannot receive that mark and be saved but I see their receiving that mark as at the point that have fully and whole-heartedly embraced the deception it is presenting to them. At that point I do not believe that they can be moved to repent it.
The problem is that you've left the simplicity that is in God's Word. You're pulling the 2 Thess.2:4 verse totally OUT of the Scripture context which Paul made simple reveals your link to false traditions of men that go against even the basic rules of English grammar. And then you show vanity as a result of being proven wrong by flying off into la-la land.
The "man of sin", the pseudo Christ, the "another beast" of Rev.13, the "vile person" of Dan.11, the "angel of the bottomless pit" of Rev.9, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses of Rev.11, the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11, the "dragon" of Rev.12, are all the same singular entity, a specific antichrist, the antichrist. That is ALSO much of what the early Church fathers believed and taught too.
The false idea that there is no such thing as a singular antichrist is a later invention of men's doctrines, most likely of the crept in unawares who directly serve the devil. That's why 'they' don't want this singular antichrist prophecy spelled out like I've done.
You fail to hear what I have said surrounding the above statement in all of my posts. That is your way of taking my words out of context.
If that suites your desire, have at it. But the beasts (both the seven headed beast and the two horned beast) are seperate entities as compared to this man of sin. They fornicate together but that is the extent of their likeness.
All of those symbolic creatures represent entities of men. Not even one of them is suddenly thrown into the mix of Revelation breaking that pattern. But you break that pattern. And to assist you to do this you almost completely ignore the greater context of Paul's teachings to all of the churches. You ignore much that Jesus and John also said concerning this man of sin.
The only false idea is your own.
Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
John even simply defines it for us, which should tell you there's more than one. YOU departed from the simplicity of scripture. Pot, Kettle. You just accused WIF of doing it but you've done the same.
This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
And that is often a very subtle thing: Titus 1:16 "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
The basic thought contained in 2 Peter 2: 1-2 is that their act of (privily, privately, or subtly even to themselves) bringing in these damnable heresies is what denies him.
2 Peter 2:1-2 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of."
tomwebster
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The are many antichrists. There is one and only one "the antichrist." That one and only one is Satan himself.
Listen to John:
2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
John said "many deceivers" = "a deceiver and an antichrist" , as in many equals one.
You have fallen for the lie making you look for a singular individual. Satan is indeed the power behind that lie manipulating men to believe it.
Exactly.
The singular individual has no Biblical basis whatsoever, it is as Veteran said (Again, Pot, Kettle comes to the surface)... A creation of man.
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