Child Salvation

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
mary needed to be a pure vessal in order for Jesus to bve born from her. Thias is the doctrine of the Immaculate conception of Mary. I can believe it but I can't really explain it any further I suppose if God wants to have someone born without original sin then he's perfectly capable of making that happen.

I do know the dance of the RCC and Mary but thanks just the same.
So If that's the case then Jesus never shared in the condition of fallen mankind. That goes against the need for for Jesus to come in the flesh of man at all. He could have just come as He was, the whole purpose of Mary was so Jesus could inherit the likeness of mankind in every way.

Hebrews 2- [sup]14[/sup] Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, [sup]15[/sup] and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. [sup]16[/sup] For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. [sup]17[/sup] Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [sup]18[/sup] For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

And the really bad part.


1 John 4
[sup]1[/sup] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [sup]2[/sup] By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, [sup]3[/sup] and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
[sup]4[/sup] You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. [sup]5[/sup] They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. [sup]6[/sup] We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

So according to your church Jesus never came in the flesh of mankind, He was insulated by His mother from original sin or the flesh of mankind, to take it a step farther Mary lived a sinless life as well. IMO this is very dangerous ground to stand on.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
You do understand the implications I hope.
If I were Satan I would call for a mistrial, and the whole case of salvation for mankind threw Jesus be thrown out.
On the grounds that He never lived a perfect life in the same flesh as man. Therefore He can never intervene for mans sins, mans sins in the same condition of his flesh have not been met.
Case dismissed.
 

religusnut

New Member
Oct 19, 2010
242
10
0
You do understand the implications I hope.
If I were Satan I would call for a mistrial, and the whole case of salvation for mankind threw Jesus be thrown out.
On the grounds that He never lived a perfect life in the same flesh as man. Therefore He can never intervene for mans sins, mans sins in the same condition of his flesh have not been met.
Case dismissed.

Has anybody investiated that the sin nature is passed through the father and not the mother? People were judged by the sins of the fathers not the sins of the mothers. In fact a father or husband could nullify a wife's sins according to Numbers ?? 30 "I think working from memory" Also the Bible in Romans says by one man's sin talking about Adam and Jesus Genesis 3:15 was born of the seed of a woman.


Course that probably fits nobody's doctrine especially that of the RCC but it makes as much sense as anything else......
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Has anybody investiated that the sin nature is passed through the father and not the mother? People were judged by the sins of the fathers not the sins of the mothers. In fact a father or husband could nullify a wife's sins according to Numbers ?? 30 "I think working from memory" Also the Bible in Romans says by one man's sin talking about Adam and Jesus Genesis 3:15 was born of the seed of a woman.


Course that probably fits nobody's doctrine especially that of the RCC but it makes as much sense as anything else......

Heres the deal. Sin entered from the woman to man "Adam" and all mankind. She Eve was deceived, beguiled.
Now God has "from her seed" "Eves, seed has two references here, both Jesus and the woman "her fallen seed" a daughter of Eve, threw woman mankind recieved salvation in Jesus.
God has redeemed woman's error with the fallen seed of the woman Eve, her name was Mary.

As you can see the RCC dose not share the same opinion. Their Mary was a different person than anyone else that ever lived.
excluded from the fallen condition of mankind. She this Mary of the RCC can not qualify as a daughter of Eve. She could have never passed the condition of flesh to Jesus that all mankind shared in.
 

religusnut

New Member
Oct 19, 2010
242
10
0
Heres the deal. Sin entered from the woman to man "Adam" and all mankind. She Eve was deceived, beguiled.
Now God has "from her seed" "Eves, seed has two references here, both Jesus and the woman "her fallen seed" a daughter of Eve, threw woman mankind recieved salvation in Jesus.
God has redeemed woman's error with the fallen seed of the woman Eve, her name was Mary.

As you can see the RCC dose not share the same opinion. Their Mary was a different person than anyone else that ever lived.
excluded from the fallen condition of mankind. She this Mary of the RCC can not qualify as a daughter of Eve. She could have never passed the condition of flesh to Jesus that all mankind shared in.


I apologize for bringing in even the mention of the RCC. My personal thoughts about that belief system but should not have come into play thus I should not have called it by name.

Now to set this back on the intended course;

One can read Numbers 30 and easily see where when Eve partook of the tree she came into an agreement with the serpent. (Yes I know that the Book of Numbers was not written at that time) Adam was in charge. He had the authority and responsibility do deal with it and redeem Eve. He did not. Instead he ate as well. Thus by one man's sin we saw sin enter into the world. Thus we see the sin nature carried through man and not woman. Thus you see Jesus born of the seed of a woman.

His primary sin was to not take care of his wife. Then we see also that the very first blame he had was at God himself. "That woman YOU gave me...........

This thread has gotten basically off topic. Do we need to start a new thread on this topic? I am looking for guidance on this I am new at this forum and I am learning.
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
Heres the deal. Sin entered from the woman to man "Adam" and all mankind. She Eve was deceived, beguiled.
Now God has "from her seed" "Eves, seed has two references here, both Jesus and the woman "her fallen seed" a daughter of Eve, threw woman mankind recieved salvation in Jesus.
God has redeemed woman's error with the fallen seed of the woman Eve, her name was Mary.

As you can see the RCC dose not share the same opinion. Their Mary was a different person than anyone else that ever lived.
excluded from the fallen condition of mankind. She this Mary of the RCC can not qualify as a daughter of Eve. She could have never passed the condition of flesh to Jesus that all mankind shared in.

Hello Bud,

As a Catholic, I am very knowledgable of the Catholic faith. I assure you that Mary is indeed descended from Adam and Eve. Jesus is the son of Mary just as the Bible says; therefore, she passed her humanity to her son, Jesus. This is why Jesus is 100% man. Jesus did not get His humanity from God because God is not human. Jesus is also the Son of God and is 100% God.

God redeemed woman's error through Mary by granting her salvation at her conception and making her the "new Eve" just as Christ is called the "new Adam." How was Mary granted salvation when Christ did not die on the cross yet? With God, there is no such thing as "time." God exists outside the realm of time and time cannot contain God. So, when Christ died on the cross, bringing redemption to all mankind, that redemption was for all those living in the past, present, and future. Christ's redemption on the cross was applied to Mary at the time of her conception so that she can become the vessel to carry Jesus. In this way, she became the "new Eve" and redeemed the first woman's error.

In the same way, we believe that we are redeemed and have salvation from Christ through His death and resurrection.. The fact that He died on the cross 2000 years ago and not today in our time is irrelevant. His death on the cross 2000 years ago brought redemption to those living today and contiues on to those in the future not yet born. His death and resurrection reached all people in the past, present, and future because God exists outside the realm of Time.

My faith teaches us that Mary must receive this gift of salvation from the future death and resurrection of her son (in her time period) in order to carry Christ because a woman with sin cannot carry the Christ child. Christ is holy because He is God and the woman who carries Him in her womb must also be holy and sinless. Why? Because sin cannot contain holiness. God is a consuming fire that destroys sin. If Mary had sin in her, she would die if Christ, (a holy fire) is inside her. We do not believe that Christ came from sin nor born from sin. We believe that Christ had nothing to do with sin because both His mother and Father had nothing to do with sin. In order for Christ to be born without sin, His Father must be without sin, and His mother must also be without sin because His humanity came from His mother, Mary.

In the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to bring their sacrifice in clean vessels (See Isaiah 66:20). Christ is the lamb of God who was sacrificed. If God commanded His chosen people to bring their offerings to Him in clean vessels, surely, God would also bring His sacrifice (the lamb of God) in a clean vessel. That clean vessel that carried the Lamb of God was Mary.

In Christ,
Selene


 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Hello Bud,

As a Catholic, I am very knowledgable of the Catholic faith. I assure you that Mary is indeed descended from Adam and Eve. Jesus is the son of Mary just as the Bible says; therefore, she passed her humanity to her son, Jesus. This is why Jesus is 100% man. Jesus did not get His humanity from God because God is not human. Jesus is also the Son of God and is 100% God.


He is not according to Hebrews, and nether was Mary.Nether shared in Adam and Eves fallen condition according to your church.

God redeemed woman's error through Mary by granting her salvation at her conception and making her the "new Eve" just as Christ is called the "new Adam." How was Mary granted salvation when Christ did not die on the cross yet? With God, there is no such thing as "time." God exists outside the realm of time and time cannot contain God. So, when Christ died on the cross, bringing redemption to all mankind, that redemption was for all those living in the past, present, and future. Christ's redemption on the cross was applied to Mary at the time of her conception so that she can become the vessel to carry Jesus. In this way, she became the "new Eve" and redeemed the first woman's error.

According to your churches definition Mary was sinless as well as not not experiencing Eves fallen condition. She fulfilled the law just as Jesus did she had no need for an intercessor "Jesus" which is an other contradiction to scripture. All have sinned and fallen short.

In the same way, we believe that we are redeemed and have salvation from Christ through His death and resurrection.. The fact that He died on the cross 2000 years ago and not today in our time is irrelevant. His death on the cross 2000 years ago brought redemption to those living today and contiues on to those in the future not yet born. His death and resurrection reached all people in the past, present, and future because God exists outside the realm of Time.

My faith teaches us that Mary must receive this gift of salvation from the future death and resurrection of her son (in her time period) in order to carry Christ because a woman with sin cannot carry the Christ child. Christ is holy because He is God and the woman who carries Him in her womb must also be holy and sinless. Why? Because sin cannot contain holiness. God is a consuming fire that destroys sin. If Mary had sin in her, she would die if Christ, (a holy fire) is inside her. We do not believe that Christ came from sin nor born from sin. We believe that Christ had nothing to do with sin because both His mother and Father had nothing to do with sin. In order for Christ to be born without sin, His Father must be without sin, and His mother must also be without sin because His humanity came from His mother, Mary.

The scripture says different, he shared in every way the condition of men, read the Hebrews I posted.
This sin you speak of is the fallen condition of men, the result was death, death is the inherent quality from Adam and Eve that all men share in. What you refer to as the stain of original sin. Men do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve but rather inherit the penalty. No sin is inherit in Jesus coming in the fallen flesh or Adam and Eve. Jesus experienced it and death had no hold on Him, He overcame and rose from death. Death as God said, "in the day you eat of it you will surly die" is the forever separation from the grace that Adam and Eve possessed, restored threw Jesus.

In the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to bring their sacrifice in clean vessels (See Isaiah 66:20). Christ is the lamb of God who was sacrificed. If God commanded His chosen people to bring their offerings to Him in clean vessels, surely, God would also bring His sacrifice (the lamb of God) in a clean vessel. That clean vessel that carried the Lamb of God was Mary.

Surly you understand that If Jesus did not share in the curse of death, the separation from God that befell Adam without ever having to walk in the flesh of man He never needed to bother to come to earth in the first place. He experienced, was smitten to death for our sake,
[font="Arial][font="Verdana][size="2"]Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?[/size][/font][/font]


Like I said above Satan would have a field day if Jesus did not walk in the flesh of all men.
Prophetic words spoken by Abraham to Isaac as he prepared to place him on the alter.

[sup]7[/sup] But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”
And he said, “Here I am, my son.”
Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
[sup]8[/sup] And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

Now what happen here, when God provided Himself a lamb. Death received the vesel of flesh that contained the spirit of the Son of God.
Jesus used the very same vessel that is provided for us all. The problem was just like in a cartoon when the bad guy swallows a stick of dynamite death was over come, the essence of Jesus being a perfect blame less sin less sacrifice ended deaths hold on men.
Death is what was over come at the cross not SIN. The result of sin was over come, how else do you expect to get home? I tell you the truth; If the cost of sin has not been paid I'll never make it home.


But you believe as you like and for the record your church states that there is no scriptural evidence to support your Mary, so I won't bother asking you for it.

http://www.catholic....n_and_Assum.asp
Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


Do you see that highlighted sentence? It says you ether believe the Catholic church or the notion of sola scripture.
I'll tell you what, that's a no brainier for me. A brief read in 1st John and Hebrews tells me another story.

The summery in line with the OP question and its related implication presented by selene.
Because children do not have any personal sins and only the original sin, if they die, we can only comfort ourselves with Jesus words in the following verses:

In keeping with your churches traditions you paint a pretty bleak picture for children.

So now how is it that children are damned to hell, for never having matured to be accountable for their own decisions?
We all received "inherited" the result of sin "death" not the sin its self.


 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
Two points

1. God is all powerful and if he wants to make a person sinless he can do so even if it contradicts the general principle that all humans are sinners.

2. I ti smore likely that the Immaculate conception of Mary was the reult of the early church wanting to emphasise Christ's divinity. Let's not forget that in the early church there were people who thought Jesus was a prophet but not the son of God and at the other extreme there were those who believed that Jesus was purely divine and spiritual and never lived on earth as a human. At the council of Nicea it wa decided that Christ had two natures, the divine and the human, but he is not half and half is is both fully human and fully divine. If Mary is regarded as having been a sinner thenthen that would cause more arguments from the party that considered Jesus to be just a prophet.

Let's not forgt that before the council of Nicea and the reign of Constantine, Christians weren't united, and they believed in aall sort of weird and wonderful things. Some believed Jeuss was a prophet, some believed he was only a spirit, some thought to go to Heaven you ahd to be martyred and some thought once you had accepted Christ and were saved you could go around committing all the sins you want. Then let's not forget the gnostics who believed that Christians were saved by obtaining secret knowledge. What I mean is that Christians didn't just suddenly appear with fully developed beliefs back in the first century.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Two points

1. God is all powerful and if he wants to make a person sinless he can do so even if it contradicts the general principle that all humans are sinners.

I know you and your church members have no problem accepting such things even thou it contradicts the word of God.
Just where does this leave room for your choice in life? Free will so to speak.

2. I ti smore likely that the Immaculate conception of Mary was the reult of the early church wanting to emphasise Christ's divinity. Let's not forget that in the early church there were people who thought Jesus was a prophet but not the son of God and at the other extreme there were those who believed that Jesus was purely divine and spiritual and never lived on earth as a human. At the council of Nicea it wa decided that Christ had two natures, the divine and the human, but he is not half and half is is both fully human and fully divine. If Mary is regarded as having been a sinner thenthen that would cause more arguments from the party that considered Jesus to be just a prophet.

Let's not forgt that before the council of Nicea and the reign of Constantine, Christians weren't united, and they believed in aall sort of weird and wonderful things. Some believed Jeuss was a prophet, some believed he was only a spirit, some thought to go to Heaven you ahd to be martyred and some thought once you had accepted Christ and were saved you could go around committing all the sins you want. Then let's not forget the gnostics who believed that Christians were saved by obtaining secret knowledge. What I mean is that Christians didn't just suddenly appear with fully developed beliefs back in the first century.

Pointing to past errors or doctrine of the founders is no excuse for the continued error of tradition as compared to scripture. But your church has painted itself into a corner many centuries ago by claiming itself to be infallible. In that it can never admit to error in any sense of the word, to do such a thing would immediately prove itself false.
Its true the Marion doctrine has been taught threw tradition from the beginning and the NT verses by John, 1st John 4, IMO point directly at it. The portrayals of Madonna and son bear a striking resemblance to Isis and Horus, Isis also shares the same qualities that you attribute to Mary. To prove that Marionisum is alive and well it wasn't until 1854 that Marys immaculate conception became infallible dogma for Catholics. When you become a member you accept it as factual church dogma.

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

And again with the statement that it can't be found in scripture.
Straight from your Catholic Encyclopedia.
http://www.newadvent...then/07674d.htm
But it does not detour your magistrate from bending every verse possible to make it sound justified.

Proof from Scripture

Genesis 3:15
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent's head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.


John warned us with the words translated anti-christ, the only place in the scripture they are used.
That those that teach Jesus did not come in the flesh, are of the spirit of anti-christ. That pretty much covers the coveted founding of the RCC and its authoritative interpretation of Mathew 16-18. Like your church says you ether believe us "the RCC", or scripture its as simple as that. My debates with Catholic that are bible literate lead to all sorts of interpretations more often than not they simply "deny" the word and stand on tradition alone, which is exactly the place your church places you by it own admissions. But what should one expect from a church that has made such claims threw the age. Such as only they can interpret scripture and there is no salvation outside the RCC. That they operate as the vicor of christ on earth with the authoritative power to open and close salvation to whom ever it pleases.
I'm sorry the more I think of it the more the Spirit within me rises to address such blasphemy, I don't want to direct that at you. The next time you go for one of those trademarked magic cookies called the eucharist I hope you remember the teaching of your Mary and Johns teaching of Jesus coming in the flesh.

[sup]5[/sup] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
[sup]6[/sup] He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:


‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
[sup]7[/sup] And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.[sup][b][/sup]
[sup]8[/sup] For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men[sup][c][/sup]—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
[sup]9[/sup] He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. [sup]10[/sup] For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[sup][d][/sup] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]11[/sup] But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), [sup]12[/sup] then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, [sup]13[/sup] making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
There is more to Christinaity than just the scriptures, what about oral tradition and church councils? If it wasn't for them we still wouldn't have figured out the divinity of Christ and we would all be divided about it. Nowerdays Christianity is very fragmented with so many denominations but the vast majority of them can look at what the council of Nicea did and would find it hard to disagree.

Have you read the Nicene Creed Bud IO bet there's nothing there you could disagree with.

Also, let's not forget that at no point ins cripture does it say that the serpent in Eden is the devil but we accept it because it is tradition also lots of [peopel talk about the rapture but that's not inscripture either.

BTW. My church is a broad church and its members adheer to lots of different traditions, some Catholic, some Evangelical.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
There is more to Christinaity than just the scriptures, what about oral tradition and church councils? If it wasn't for them we still wouldn't have figured out the divinity of Christ and we would all be divided about it. Nowerdays Christianity is very fragmented with so many denominations but the vast majority of them can look at what the council of Nicea did and would find it hard to disagree.

Have you read the Nicene Creed Bud IO bet there's nothing there you could disagree with.

Also, let's not forget that at no point ins cripture does it say that the serpent in Eden is the devil but we accept it because it is tradition also lots of [peopel talk about the rapture but that's not inscripture either.

BTW. My church is a broad church and its members adheer to lots of different traditions, some Catholic, some Evangelical.

Nicene Creed, which met there in Nicene A.D. 325.
Add to that the 1260 days / years for prophesy and we come to 1585. Thats about the time the RCC lost control of men threw its teachings I think, what else can I say. That reformation thing. The counsel of Trent began in 1545 and the finial draft completed in 1592. If all the dates are correct that puts the middle of the counsel of Trent at 1568, pretty coincidental dates don't you think? Or the Nicene Creed to 1585 and the finial draft in 1592 that's close, are you willing to bet your salvation on that 7 year difference? For those that don't know the counsel of Trent was formed to counter the reformation, or to stem the Exodus of the believers from under the rule of Rome and its Roman Catholic Church.

Rev 12
[sup]13[/sup] Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [sup]14[/sup] But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time "1260 days", from the presence of the serpent.

[sup]17[/sup] And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13
[sup]4[/sup] So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
[sup]5[/sup] And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. "1260 days" [sup]6[/sup] Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. [sup]7[/sup] It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.


 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
He is not according to Hebrews, and nether was Mary.Nether shared in Adam and Eves fallen condition according to your church.

According to the Hebrews, they believe that Mary is human and that Jesus is also human and not God. We believe that Mary is 100% human and descended from Adam and Eve. We also believe that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.

According to your churches definition Mary was sinless as well as not not experiencing Eves fallen condition. She fulfilled the law just as Jesus did she had no need for an intercessor "Jesus" which is an other contradiction to scripture. All have sinned and fallen short.

Like everyone, Mary needed a savior . She cannot save herself. She cannot fulfill the law without God, and she had God - her son. When Christ lived inside you, God who is inside you will fulfill the law. Do you believe that Jesus came from sin? Do you believe that Jesus was born from sin? We do not believe that Jesus had anything to do with sin whatsoever. All have sinned and fallen short, which is why we all need a savior including Mary. Mary, on the other hand, had a special purpose. Because she was set aside by God to carry Christ, she was given santifying grace and the gift of salvation at her conception by God.

Luke 1:46-49
And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name

As you can see, Mary recognized God as her savior. Like everyone, she needed a savior. "All generations shall call her blessed." Why? Is it really because she is a vessel that carried Jesus? That is such an honor to call a vessel "bless." "He (God) has done great things to me" Mary says. What great things did God do to her that all generations will call her blessed? Making her pregnant? God turned Sarah's dead womb alive with Abraham's child to fulfill God's promise to Abraham, but all generations do not call Sarah blessed.

The scripture says different, he shared in every way the condition of men, read the Hebrews I posted.
This sin you speak of is the fallen condition of men, the result was death, death is the inherent quality from Adam and Eve that all men share in. What you refer to as the stain of original sin. Men do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve but rather inherit the penalty. No sin is inherit in Jesus coming in the fallen flesh or Adam and Eve

No sin is inherited in Jesus in the fallen flesh of Adam and Eve because His mother Mary was already given the santifying grace needed to carry Him in her womb. Jesus is indeed the son of Mary. He has a mother and He inherited His humanity from His mother who was already given the santifying grace and gift of salvation. If Mary had sin, then the humanity that Mary passed on to her son would be a humanity full of sin.

Death is indeed the inherent quality that all men (including Christ) share in because as you already know, Christ did die despite that he had no sin. So, even Christ experienced death despite that he had no sin. The only difference is....He was the only one who conquered death. He conquered death because He is God. Mary cannot conquer death despite that she also did not have the original sin like her son.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
Rev 12
[sup]13[/sup] Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [sup]14[/sup] But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time "1260 days", from the presence of the serpent.

[sup]17[/sup] And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Hello Bud,

I am very familiar with this biblical verse. The woman in Revelations is Mary, and the male child she gave birth to was Christ. The rest of her offsprings is the Church - the Christians who call Mary their mother. My brother, the Catholics and our Orthodox brothers are the only Christians who call Mary their mother.

Our Protestant brothers would often misinterpret the woman in the Scripture as Israel. She is not Israel. How do we know? Since the male child (Jesus) is an individual and the red dragon (Satan) is an individual, then it stands to reason that the woman is also an individual. It cannot be Israel because Israel did not give birth to the Church. The Church is not the offspring of Israel. Christ was the one who built the Church and the members of His church are His brothers and sisters. We have always called Christ our brother. God is our Father, and Mary is our blessed mother. We have never called Mary our "sister."

In Christ,
Selene
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
It cannot be Israel because Israel did not give birth to the Church. The Church is not the offspring of Israel. Christ was the one who built the Church and the members of His church are His brothers and sisters. We have always called Christ our brother. God is our Father, and Mary is our blessed mother. We have never called Mary our "sister."

In Christ,
Selene

I have said my piece. My God bless you in your journey Selene, may He rescue your foot from the fowlers snare.



Genesis 22
[sup]15[/sup] Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, [sup]16[/sup] and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— [sup]17[/sup] blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. [sup]18[/sup] In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.



Genesis 49
[sup]10[/sup] The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.



John 4
[sup]21[/sup] Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. [sup]22[/sup] You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. [sup]23[/sup] But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. [sup]24[/sup] God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
[sup]25[/sup] The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
[sup]26[/sup] Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.


Romans 11
[sup]16[/sup] For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [sup]17[/sup] And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [sup]18[/sup] But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
[sup]19[/sup] You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [sup]20[/sup] Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [sup]21[/sup] For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
Couple of things bud

It's council not counsel.

Also,You can't pin revelation prophecies on the Catholic church because unless you didn't know Catholics are Christians, so it isn't right to call them the dragon. This kind of thought might have been acceptable in the 16th century but it certainly isn't now. If anything it is a kick in the teeth for Christian unity.

As far as I'm concerned about Revelations 12, the woman is Mary and the dragon is the devil himself but refering in this isntance to Herod. The child is Jesus and then they go into the desert. Jesus, mary and Joseph went to Egypt didn't they so it all works out. How anyone could say it is isreal is beyond me, Israel is for the Jews not Christians.

And the idea of betting your salvation, what a blasphemy!!!. if I was you I;d get down on my knees right now and ask God forgiveness for suggesting such a thing.
 

religusnut

New Member
Oct 19, 2010
242
10
0
:unsure:This topic has gotten so far off subject that it should be locked and dropped.

Child salvation has nothing to do with Roman Catholism and whether or not it is Mary or the Church or Israel in Revelation.

If I am wrong forgive me. I do not see it.
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
I have said my piece. My God bless you in your journey Selene, may He rescue your foot from the fowlers snare.

Thank you, my brother, and may God bless you. ;)

John 4
[sup]21[/sup] Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. [sup]22[/sup] You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. [sup]23[/sup] But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. [sup]24[/sup] God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
[sup]25[/sup] The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
[sup]26[/sup] Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.

I agree. salvation is of the Jews. Israel was the chosen people because out of her came Jesus, who is Jewish. He is salvation. But the Church (which is the offspring of the woman in Revelations) was not built by Israel. It was built by Christ.


Romans 11
[sup]16[/sup] For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [sup]17[/sup] And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [sup]18[/sup] But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
[sup]19[/sup] You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [sup]20[/sup] Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [sup]21[/sup] For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

I agree that Judaism is the root and Christianity is the branches that grew from the root, but Judaism is not our mother and neither is Israel. The root does not give birth to a lump or to branches. The root, the lump, and the branches actually make up ONE tree. This also explains why one can see the Jewish traditions and heritage in our liturgies. As a matter of fact, the vestments that the our priests wear today actually came from our Jewish brothers in Israel.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
:unsure:This topic has gotten so far off subject that it should be locked and dropped.

Child salvation has nothing to do with Roman Catholism and whether or not it is Mary or the Church or Israel in Revelation.

If I am wrong forgive me. I do not see it.

Hello Religusnut,

I think the only reason that the subject was brought up was because Catholics believe that every child was born with the stain of original sin except Mary. Her original sin was taken out at her conception in order for her to carry Christ in her womb and pass on her humanity to HIm so that He also becomes a "son of Mary." The Protestants, on the other hand, believed differently.

At any rate, Jesus did say "hinder not the little children to come to me for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Christ even said that unless you are like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

In Christ,
Selene
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Couple of things bud

It's council not counsel.

Also,You can't pin revelation prophecies on the Catholic church because unless you didn't know Catholics are Christians, so it isn't right to call them the dragon. This kind of thought might have been acceptable in the 16th century but it certainly isn't now. If anything it is a kick in the teeth for Christian unity.

In the first place I did not direct my comment to the members but to the teachers. Your statement brings to mind Johns statement to the Pharisees and Sadducees

[sup]7[/sup] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [sup]8[/sup] Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, [sup]9[/sup] and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [sup]10[/sup] And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

In the same way today it means little to say to yourselves we are Christians.
and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Peter as our father

There has never been christian unity from the very beginning we are warned by the Apostles about false Christians.
Your church tried enforcement by law for hundreds of years, didn't work out to well.

As far as I'm concerned about Revelations 12, the woman is Mary and the dragon is the devil himself but refering in this isntance to Herod. The child is Jesus and then they go into the desert. Jesus, mary and Joseph went to Egypt didn't they so it all works out. How anyone could say it is isreal is beyond me, Israel is for the Jews not Christians.

Believe what you like there is literally a smorgasbord of interpretations today. Even within the catholic church the same. I could go the catholic answers forum today and easily find 6 catholics that disagree on the doctrines of the magistrate in a single thread, or for that matter what is infallible catholic doctrine spoken by the pope, ex cathedra.

And the idea of betting your salvation, what a blasphemy!!!. If was you I;d g iet down on my knees right now and ask God forgiveness for suggesting such a thing.

In what sense? that it questions your vicar? Or simply because I ask, just how sure are you of your belief and its promise of salvation? What drove me to ask is the simple statements from your church, to paraphrase, "the church" says this teaching can not be supported by scripture. So you seem to be very comfortable when a man stands before you and says, here is the bible and this is what I say, the two are not the same but I ask you to believe me.
Your quote
There is more to Christinaity than just the scriptures, what about oral tradition and church councils?

What else is there to say. You replied to me as such
[ If was you I;d g iet down on my knees right now and ask God forgiveness for suggesting such a thing.]
I'll reply back with,
[ If was you I;d g iet down on my knees right now and ask God forgiveness for following mens traditions instead of believing your word ]

The bottom line is many teach things that are not found in scripture today, the Catholic church just happens to be the first in a long line of mens tradition makers.
With that in mind just what do we know and trust to be the truth? The original letters of the NT IMO. Im not willing to put may faith for salvation in anything else. I'm certainly not going to believe men over the NT writings, or believe that only certain elected people can interpret scripture.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
I agree that Judaism is the root and Christianity is the branches that grew from the root, but Judaism is not our mother and neither is Israel. The root does not give birth to a lump or to branches. The root, the lump, and the branches actually make up ONE tree. This also explains why one can see the Jewish traditions and heritage in our liturgies. As a matter of fact, the vestments that the our priests wear today actually came from our Jewish brothers in Israel.

In Christ,
Selene

I dont know but it looks to me like the gates and wall of Jerusalem have Jewish graffiti all over them.
Maybe the pope will have the places name changed to Vatican city, and replace the tribes and Apostles names with popes names instead.
He does have that authoritative power thing about being able to bind and lose what ever he pleases on earth and in heaven, shouldn't be a problem, right?
Just because its in the bible doesn't mean you can't form a new tradition and change the name to reflect your statement.

Revelation 21
[sup]9[/sup] Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife. [sup]10[/sup] And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [sup]11[/sup] having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. [sup]12[/sup] Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: [sup]13[/sup] three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
[sup]14[/sup] Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This also explains why one can see the Jewish traditions and heritage in our liturgies. As a matter of fact, the vestments that the our priests wear today actually came from our Jewish brothers in Israel.

O I don't for a minute think the catholic church is not a modern NT Levitical system. Complete with a high priest or "pope". And the Levis "priest and bishops" that operate just the same as they did in Jesus time. And we all know what He thought of them, blind guides, white washed tombs ect ect .