Who founded your church?

Marymog said:

However, using (y)our argument that Belief came first water baptism came second can one cut out the water part and still be in compliance with Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles?

Curious Mary

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Should you be water baptized after you are born again?
Yes.
Should you teach that water regenerates the soul and causes the new birth.
No.

Should you try to combine Salvation + Water, = born again.
No.

Can you be born again, and not water baptized.
Yes, everyone is who is born again, as the water comes later.

Marymog said:

Ummm......well that is not what you said earlier sooooo based on your new statement about witnesses being present...I agree with you.

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We are 2000+ yrs past the Crucifixion.
The first 70+ yrs of the "church" was people gathering in houses, even in Rome.

Today, when a person is water baptized, its often a celebration.
Often the entire church is present.
So, it has become an event, within the later day "church", that is viewed as a public confession, which it is...
You are confessing before GOD, by this symbolic public gesture, that you are "risen with Christ", a Son of God.

If there are 100 people watching, or in my case, if there were 5, then, its still a symbolic gesture that happened after Salvation had already occurred.

Marymog said:

Ok...I see where you are confused...You equate kissing something as a sign of worshiping the thing that is kissed!!

Fair enough...That’s my final answer.

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No, im just being honest.
See, i don't have to pretend, like you do.
I dont exist as a part of a water cult that has my "head of the body", shown kissing a dirty piece of marble or plastic.
You have no other choice, as to admit the truth, is impossible for you to face.

Behold said:

No, im just being honest.
See, i don't have to pretend, like you do.
I dont exist as a part of a water cult that has my "head of the body", shown kissing a dirty piece of marble or plastic.
You have no other choice, as to admit the truth, is impossible for you to face.

Click to expand...

You can be honest and still be confused. One does not cancel out the other.

I don't know what a water cult is. I guess God is part of the "water cult" since in Genesis God used water to destroy or wash away the wicked people and saved Noah and his family. Noah and his family were saved thru water and it was a prefiguration of water baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21).


In Exodus water is used to save the Israelite's and destroy those that were trying to enslave them. This was equated as baptism in the NT (1 Corinthians 10:2).


In Genesis and Exodus circumcision is given on the 8th day as a sign of a covenant with God and His people. That Old Covenant is then changed to a New Covenant in the NT by water baptism (Colossians 2:11-12).


Ezekiel 36: 22-27 talks of sprinkling water upon us and being cleansed by that water. Zechariah talks of a fountain that will be opened for the house of David so that we may be cleansed. Psalm 51:2 says, Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.


John the Baptist said he baptizes with water but the one that comes after him will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Baptism goes from symbolic to a sacrament after Jesus is baptized with water. The Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus as he is baptized. In John 3:5 Jesus tells Nicodemus Truly one cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless one is born of water and Spirit. That passage mirrors Mark 16:16 which says The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. In Acts 2:38 Peter says repent AND be baptized.


So I am happy to be a member of what you call a cult which was established by God himself. This fact is impossible for you to face.

Behold said:

We are 2000+ yrs past the Crucifixion.
The first 70+ yrs of the "church" was people gathering in houses, even in Rome.

Today, when a person is water baptized, its often a celebration.
Often the entire church is present.
So, it has become an event, within the later day "church", that is viewed as a public confession, which it is...
You are confessing before GOD, by this symbolic public gesture, that you are "risen with Christ", a Son of God.

If there are 100 people watching, or in my case, if there were 5, then, its still a symbolic gesture that happened after Salvation had already occurred.

Click to expand...

Show me where scripture says baptism has to be public and I will join your cult.

Behold said:

Should you be water baptized after you are born again?
Yes.
Should you teach that water regenerates the soul and causes the new birth.
No.

Should you try to combine Salvation + Water, = born again.
No.

Can you be born again, and not water baptized.
Yes, everyone is who is born again, as the water comes later.

Click to expand...

That is YOUR interpretation (or one taught to you by other men).

For 2,000 years Christianity has taught different then what you have been taught by other men for the last 500 years.

@Marymog
The principle concept behind baptism is burial. And you don't bury people unless they're dead. Again, read Romans 6. Sprinkling simply doesn't cut it. Neither does a living infant who cannot voluntarily surrender his life into the hands of another.

FHII said:

So now we are discussing Mary. My take on it is this... Catholics say they don't worship Mary. Fine. I don't like when people tell me what I worship (though some Catholics do it on this site quite a lot), so I am not about to say they do when they say they don't.

However, I see this, and it makes me wonder:

(From Roserycenter.org)

How to pray the Rosery:

1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
2. Say the “Our Father”
3. Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
4. Say the “Glory Be”
5. Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
6. Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
7. Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
8. Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
9. Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
10. Make the “Sign of the Cross”

Well.. I see one mention of "the Father" and one mention of Jesus (which is optional, and still connected to Mary), but 13 times "Hail Mary" is to be said. Furthermore, its repeated 20 times because there are 20 mysteries. Well, that's 20 times the Father is acknowledged, 20 times (which is optional) Jesus is acknowledged as long as long as you know Mary requested it, and a whopping 260 times "hail Mary" is said. There isn't even one "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father".

So at a ratio of 13:13 (optional):260.... Do Catholics really have a reason to be upset when someone wonders why some might suspect they worship Mary?

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The Rosary is also a Bible study, if you can possibly drop your rationalistic perspective to see it.
The Rosary | Catholic Answers
Rosary Explanation for Protestants | Douglas Beaumont

Marymog said:

Thank you for your heartfelt response. I believe it is Mary who is portrayed as the woman with the crown on her head in Revelations. If you don’t think it is Mary, who is it?

I can’t find any reliable information on the Desposyni theory so I don’t know who killed them off. I suspect the Jews or Roman government who killed a lot of Christians.

Are you able to provide me with a reliable source that supports the Desposyni theory?

Willing to learn, Mary

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The "woman" in Revelation 12 is Israel. The moon under her feet is Abraham, and the 12 stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. It is why there is a genealogy in Matthew and Luke proving Jesus' lineage. Look at verse 6. Those 1260 days is 3 1/2 years, the first half of the Great Tribulation when Israel has a second chance to come into their Messiah's Church. Going down further in chapter 12 you find "the rest of her offspring." Those are Gentile Christians. You see the gospel went first to only two tribes of Israel, Judah and Benjamin, and then Samaria (the 10 other tribes), and finally the rest of the world, gentiles.

CharismaticLady said:

The "woman" in Revelation 12 is Israel. The moon under her feet is Abraham, and the 12 stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. It is why there is a genealogy in Matthew and Luke proving Jesus' lineage. Look at verse 6. Those 1260 days is 3 1/2 years, the first half of the Great Tribulation when Israel has a second chance to come into their Messiah's Church. Going down further in chapter 12 you find "the rest of her offspring." Those are Gentile Christians. You see the gospel went first to only two tribes of Israel, Judah and Benjamin, and then Samaria (the 10 other tribes), and finally the rest of the world, gentiles.

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Thanks. I can see that interpretation. I have researched several interpreations and 4 of the make sense to me.

Can you see the Woman as being Mary since she gave birth to Jesus who seems to fulfill vs 11–16?

I notice that whenever solid, physical archeological evidence is presented proving the early church was Catholic in belief and practice, Marian devotion is the standard DERAILER. Devotion does not mean worship, and neither does prayer, but the anti-Catholic refuses to see it any other way. OK, I'll go along with @FHII rosary derailer and present more evidence that authentic Marian devotion (not worship) existed in the early Church.



This 3rd Century Marian prayer contains the roots of a central dogma and an enduring devotion.
The oldest known prayer to Mary is the Sub Tuum Praesidium. It was discovered in Egypt on a fragment of papyrus. It is believed the prayer dates back to mid-late 200's A.D.

The prayer follows:

We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin.

This ancient prayer holds the origins of a central Marian dogma, theotokos, and one of the most enduring Marian devotions, Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

One of the great controversies in the early Church was a question. Is it more proper to speak of Mary as simply the mother of Jesus, or can she have as her title mother of God, theotokos (God bearer)? In 431 the Council of Ephesus agreed that giving Mary the title of mother of God affirmed the divinity of Jesus. (because the doctrine of the Trinity was challenged by heretics)
Sub Tuum Praesidium: The Most Ancient Marian Prayer | Saint Mary's Press (smp.org)

"oldest known prayer" does not mean the devotion was invented at the time it was written, it proves what the earliest Christians always believed. Here's more evidence:



Title: First Known Image of Mary
Artist: Unknown
Location: Catacombs of Priscilla (Rome, Italy)
Medium: Fresco
Time: 170 BC
Dimensions: 14.79 x 16.42

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

“[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.”
Protoevangelium of John, 6:2 (A.D. 150).

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

The Bible, Luther, & Calvin on Calling Mary “Blessed”
Questions Re Catholic Mariology & the Rosary
Martin Luther Was Extraordinarily Devoted to Mary

Serious objections to Catholic Mariology was NOT a reformist issue until the mid 18th century. A bit late, dontcha think???

Marymog said:

Thanks. I can see that interpretation. I have researched several interpreations and 4 of the make sense to me.

Can you see the Woman as being Mary since she gave birth to Jesus who seems to fulfill vs 11–16?

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I used to, but once you continue reading it doesn't. I always study context.

FHII said:

So now we are discussing Mary. My take on it is this... Catholics say they don't worship Mary. Fine. I don't like when people tell me what I worship (though some Catholics do it on this site quite a lot), so I am not about to say they do when they say they don't.

However, I see this, and it makes me wonder:

(From Roserycenter.org)

How to pray the Rosery:

1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
2. Say the “Our Father”
3. Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
4. Say the “Glory Be”
5. Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
6. Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
7. Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
8. Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
9. Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
10. Make the “Sign of the Cross”

Well.. I see one mention of "the Father" and one mention of Jesus (which is optional, and still connected to Mary), but 13 times "Hail Mary" is to be said. Furthermore, its repeated 20 times because there are 20 mysteries. Well, that's 20 times the Father is acknowledged, 20 times (which is optional) Jesus is acknowledged as long as long as you know Mary requested it, and a whopping 260 times "hail Mary" is said. There isn't even one "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father".

So at a ratio of 13:13 (optional):260.... Do Catholics really have a reason to be upset when someone wonders why some might suspect they worship Mary?

Click to expand...

First, you spelled "rosary" wrong, so your link is useless. Here is the link to your selective paste job, that you followed with a a private editorial. How To Pray The Rosary – Rosary Center
The first 2 paragraphs does not support the standard anti-Mary myth making.

Jesus is acknowledged as long as long as you know Mary requested it, and a whopping 260 times "hail Mary" is said. There isn't even one "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father".

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That's because "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father" is not in the Bible; it doesn't make sense. The word translated as “hail”—and which is also sometimes translated as “rejoice”—is the same word that Israel’s prophets used to begin prophecies about the promised Messiah and the joy He would bring to God’s people (Joel 2:23–24; Zech 9:9). The angel’s announcement in Luke seems to be drawn almost word for word from a prophecy of Zephaniah’s (3:14–18). Luke seems to be depicting Mary as Daughter Zion, the representative of her people called to rejoice because God has come into her midst. But you manage to find fault with "Hail Mary" taken directly from Luke 1:28. Amazing.



Furthermore, "...blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus..." is repeated a whopping 280 times but for some strange reason, that part of the "Hail Mary" prayer is obscured to anti-Mary Christians.

Jesus did not condemn repetition (He did it Himself). He condemned the vanity. There is no place for show-off's in corporate recitations. What you find is reverence. We meditate on the main events of the history of salvation during the 280 times which serves as background, you only see it as foreground and have misrepresented your misspelled link.

I've been in Protestant services where "praise Jesus" can be heard 50 times a minute at praise time. It means the same thing as "...blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus..." but automatically wrong when Catholics repeat Scripture???

There is no "Mary worship" in the rosary upon honest examination.

CharismaticLady said:

I used to, but once you continue reading it doesn't. I always study context.

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Well then, in your interpretation, who is the woman that gave birth to the child that "will rule them with an iron scepter"? Who is the child?

Marymog said:

Well then, in your interpretation, who is the woman that gave birth to the child that "will rule them with an iron scepter"? Who is the child?

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Jesus is the child. But Israel is still the woman throughout that whole chapter.

Elsewhere there is another woman who is a harlot. That is not Israel.

theefaith said:

Where does it say only pray to God?
The communion of saints all pray for each other
Col 4:2
James 5:26
Rev 5:8
And they’ve not dead!

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am theresurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

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Here is one:

Matthew 6:5-7
6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

And this also speaks against the rosary, which has pagan origins.

Please read the New Testament and base your beliefs and sacraments ONLY on the Bible, and not holy traditions that are not founded on the word of God. Mary is not God. She can't hear you. She can't be everywhere at once like God can. Can you imagine the millions of people all praying to Mary, and she supposedly can hear each one? That is blasphemy if you think that is possible. Only God can do that. So why pray to anything less than God? Jesus has commanded you to stop. Read the letter in Rev. 2 to Thyatira. The pagan goddess and godchild Babylonian Mystery Religion is what is referred to as Jezebel, because the real Jezebel was a high priestess of that evil religion. When paganism became outlawed and Christianity became the "state religion", that is when to help the pagans transition to Christianity they made their goddess, Mary, and her godchild, Jesus. It is not based on scripture, but the devil, and the "depths of Satan."

You can still be a Catholic; just give up what Jesus says to give up, and that is anything to do with praying to Mary and using the rosary. Is that so much to ask?

CharismaticLady said:

Here is one:

Matthew 6:5-7
6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

And this also speaks against the rosary, which has pagan origins.

Please read the New Testament and base your beliefs and sacraments ONLY on the Bible, and not holy traditions that are not founded on the word of God. Mary is not God. She can't hear you. She can't be everywhere at once like God can. Can you imagine the millions of people all praying to Mary, and she supposedly can hear each one? That is blasphemy if you think that is possible. Only God can do that. So why pray to anything less than God? Jesus has commanded you to stop. Read the letter in Rev. 2 to Thyatira. The pagan goddess and godchild Babylonian Mystery Religion is what is referred to as Jezebel, because the real Jezebel was a high priestess of that evil religion. When paganism became outlawed and Christianity became the "state religion", that is when to help the pagans transition to Christianity they made their goddess, Mary, and her godchild, Jesus. It is not based on scripture, but the devil, and the "depths of Satan."

You can still be a Catholic; just give up what Jesus says to give up, and that is anything to do with praying to Mary and using the rosary. Is that so much to ask?

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Actually, yes, it is too much to ask. And too little. If a Catholic gives up what Jesus says to give up, they would cease to be Catholic. They would be excommunicated. They would be in essence, "God's people coming out of her".

Backlit said:

Actually, yes, it is too much to ask. And too little. If a Catholic gives up what Jesus says to give up, they would cease to be Catholic. They would be excommunicated. They would be in essence, "God's people coming out of her".

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They don't need to tell anyone. And besides, it is Jesus we obey, and He said, otherwise they were okay - just give up what He called Jezebel - what Catholics have done to Mary. Just discard what was added a few hundred years after the Day of Pentecost. Bowing to her, kneeling in front of their idol of her, praying to her, using the rosary. "Coming out of Babylon" is coming out of that goddess and godchild mystery religion of Babylon.

cc: @theefaith