Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

Billy Evmur · Feb 17, 2021

Renniks said:
Um...it's logic. You can't have individually chosen for salvation without others chosen for hell.

It is an assumption there is no scripture.

Let me say it again, again, again
Bible predestination and election is not unto salvation
It is to be conformed to the image of God's Son and to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace

That is the only predestination and election in the bible.

Renniks · Feb 17, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
Pardon me if I misunderstood you. Here you say God chose there to be a group that would do good works

Correct. Look up corporate election.

Renniks · Feb 17, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
It is an assumption there is no scripture.

Let me say it again, again, again
Bible predestination and election is not unto salvation
It is to be conformed to the image of God's Son and to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace

That is the only predestination and election in the bible.

Ok then we agree on that.

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 17, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
I haven't said man does not have a will, but it is not free. His will is in bondage and following it will lead him into bondage.

God changed Saul of Tarsus' mind rather forcefully.

Paul/Saul always had a choice.

Like I said: preaching to convince others that they lack of choice is inherently self-contradictary.

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 17, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
You blame Calvin but here you are asaying the same mistake ... where is there any scripture that says God chose anybody for damnation? it is an assumption based upon human wisdom.

Where is there any scripture which says only the church will be saved? what about those who knew not the law who did by nature what the law required?

Billy, if you preach that only God can choose whom is saved and no man can come to Him unless God forces it, then your are simultaneously preaching that God also predestined and created tons of people to force to damnation.

If you want to say that a person has no more free agency than a falling stone: guess what, it’s not the stone’s fault it’s falling.

Heart2Soul · Feb 18, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
If we had freewill we would choose to serve no master at all, the word serve here cancels out freewill.

We cannot even choose to not choose.

This is ridiculous...everyone has a "master". We are born being subjected to obedience to the rule of another...in the beginning it's our parents...teachers, police, bosses, etc.
Just because there are laws and rules set forth to abide by doesn't mean there isn't the ability to disobey them...again it is by choice ..or the will to choose....free will.

Reggie Belafonte · Feb 18, 2021

If one did not have free will, one would not be a Human in fact.
Satanism is all about being equal, well peddling such for the majority anyway, equal with your Cat, Dog a Rat ?
You see nowadays that tricksy the Cat has a Cross above it's grave, well did Jesus come for to save ?
Jesus never came for Salvation for your Cat etc etc.
You cat or Rat is not in regards to Salvation.
Is ones cat a Sinner, do they need Salvation.

Wrangler · Feb 18, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
If we had freewill we would choose to serve no master at all,

Choosing no master, or more precisely, choosing oneself as master and god, is a choice, isn't it?

Billy Evmur said:
the word serve here cancels out freewill.

Not sure what you got agains free will? Maybe you extend it to mean free from consequences?

Billy Evmur said:
We cannot even choose to not choose.

Agreed.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Wrangler said:
Choosing no master, or more precisely, choosing oneself as master and god, is a choice, isn't it?

Not sure what you got agains free will? Maybe you extend it to mean free from consequences?

Agreed.

Choice is not freewill. The one who gives the choice, or witholds it as the case may be. is the one who has freewill.
Whichever choice you make is God's choice.

If you choose right you will live, this is God's no.1 choice
if you choose wrong you will die, this also is God's choice for He has declared that the sinner shall die.

... dead men do not have freewill.

I say man has a will but it is not free, it is in bondage and will always lead into bondage.

This also is the reformation doctrine, freewill doctrine is an intruder.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
This is ridiculous...everyone has a "master". We are born being subjected to obedience to the rule of another...in the beginning it's our parents...teachers, police, bosses, etc.
Just because there are laws and rules set forth to abide by doesn't mean there isn't the ability to disobey them...again it is by choice ..or the will to choose....free will.

choice is not freewill.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
Billy, if you preach that only God can choose whom is saved and no man can come to Him unless God forces it, then your are simultaneously preaching that God also predestined and created tons of people to force to damnation.

If you want to say that a person has no more free agency than a falling stone: guess what, it’s not the stone’s fault it’s falling.

It ought to be obvious to everyone that anybody who is saved is saved by God's will and choosing. It was Jesus who said "no man can come to Me unless the Father draw him" can you say amen to that?

There is no scripture in the whole bible which says God predestined anybody to damnation, not one.

There is a golden rule among Protestants and it is this, when the bible is silent, we are silent.

Calvin fell into a trap, he was asked the very question you ask by one of his students, history records that he hesitated a long while before reluctantly admitting that this was the logical conclusion.

Arminians slam baste Calvin but then show that they have fallen into the very same trap. They ALSO believe that predestination means God must have predestined some, nay, the most of mankind to hell.

So Arminians do something more stupid than Calvin they throw out the bible which does teach predestination and election and invent a new doctrine of freewill to take it's place.

THE ANSWER IS

The answer is to read the bible doctrine a little more carefully. Predestination [Paul says] is to be conformed to the image of God's Son. Don't YOU want to be like Jesus, hallelujah! so do I, that's what we are predestinated for.

Election [says Paul] we were Chosen in Christ before the world began to be a people for the glorious praise of God's grace, isn't that what YOU want? I do well praise God He has chosen us for that. We are predestined and chosen to be the church.

Other people can still be and will be saved.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
Paul/Saul always had a choice.

Like I said: preaching to convince others that they lack of choice is inherently self-contradictary.

choice is not freewill. The one who gives the options is the one who has free sovereign will.

Grailhunter · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
choice is not freewill.

Open link
Free will

Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by some proponents of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive (for additional discussion of free will and determinism, see moral responsibility, problem of). In theology the existence of free will must be reconciled with God’s omniscience and goodness (in allowing people to choose badly) and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre (1905–80), for example, spoke of the individual “condemned to be free.”

Jean-Paul Sartre
Jean-Paul Sartre, photograph by Gisèle Freund, 1968.
Gisele Freund

Free will
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Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

Free Will: Wikipedia
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
Actually, He found them and told them to follow him, and some dropped their nets without question. Yes, they did follow Him much like a puppet.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

I've got about 270 Scriptural references to the control of God. Our God controls entire nations, thus controlling one mind is nothing.

You misunderstand the "control" of God....God is a Sovereign God and He rules justly....He does not control....He teaches us to seek His Will not our own...confusing control with His Will for us is a grave mistake and causes many to be misled.
You err in your knowledge and understanding of our Father and how He leads us but does not dictate how we should live. He leads us in a way to go but we must choose to go.

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 19, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
It ought to be obvious to everyone that anybody who is saved is saved by God's will and choosing. It was Jesus who said "no man can come to Me unless the Father draw him" can you say amen to that?

There is no scripture in the whole bible which says God predestined anybody to damnation, not one.

YOU just preached that God choose who is saved and hence He alone choose whom is damned. Own what you are saying.

And no that's not scriptural.

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
You misunderstand the "control" of God....God is a Sovereign God and He rules justly....He does not control....He teaches us to seek His Will not our own...confusing control with His Will for us is a grave mistake and causes many to be misled.
You err in your knowledge and understanding of our Father and how He leads us but does not dictate how we should live. He leads us in a way to go but we must choose to go.

So you're controlling yourself? Not good. Scripture makes it clear that you are not to be controlled by yourself, but that you are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, if you have the Spirit within you.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

I believe what God has to say, yet you say that I am in error? That's cool . . . I'm going to believe the Bible instead of you. I trust God . . . not men.

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
So you're controlling yourself? Not good. Scripture makes it clear that you are not to be controlled by yourself, but that you are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, if you have the Spirit within you.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

I believe what God has to say, yet you say that I am in error? That's cool . . . I'm going to believe the Bible instead of you. I trust God . . . not men.

I control the choices I make. ..that is with my mind...the flesh and spirit war against each other. You are twisting the scripture. You believe what you want. Paul said with the flesh it serves sin and with his mind He serves God.
So I will agree to disagree with your interpretation of His Word.

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
So you're controlling yourself? Not good. Scripture makes it clear that you are not to be controlled by yourself, but that you are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, if you have the Spirit within you.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

I believe what God has to say, yet you say that I am in error? That's cool . . . I'm going to believe the Bible instead of you. I trust God . . . not men.

Can you explain your views to me on this question: you believe God is in control of everything, yes?

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