Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

Whetstone · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
You misunderstand the "control" of God....God is a Sovereign God and He rules justly

If God rules then only he has real free will.

Heart2Soul said:
....He does not control....He teaches us to seek His Will not our own

Can you not see the irony in that statement? A teacher controls the environment, controls the choices, restricts actions and steers people down the path THEY want the person to tread. How is that free will? Teaching humans how to conform to and obey God's will is clearly the very antithesis of free will. It is teaching people to be subservient.

Heart2Soul said:
...confusing control with His Will for us is a grave mistake and causes many to be misled.

Again, if we are destined to simply follow "his will" then that is not free will for us

Heart2Soul said:
You err in your knowledge and understanding of our Father and how He leads us but does not dictate how we should live. He leads us in a way to go but we must choose to go.

I just can't understand why people struggle with this so much. I think it's a form of denial. Our very existence in this physical world is forced upon us, it is not a choice, not free will. The environment we are stuffed into is completely dictatorial. The Earth is already totally controlled by groups of human who control all the resources, all the laws, all the prosperity and wealth. We are born into a slave world to live whatever years are afforded us as debt slaves, existing in laws and systems of taxation that ensure the vast majority of us can never get ahead of the game and are always treading water. We are not remotely free.

When you restrict the choices a person has then you remove free will. If you pass laws that say a woman can only have ne child, then you have removed her free will. She may still choose whether or not to have that one child but that does not alter the fact that she does not have free will.
The value of that choice, is greatly lessened by the limitations imposed.

I'm in some agreement with OP here. Choice does NOT equate to free will.

In fact it's the complete opposite !

The fact that ANY choice is offered is evidence that we do not have free will.

That's because any choice, by very definition must be some form of restriction, some level of limitation of options and control by external force.

The greater that control is, the less and less the value of the choice is.

Only God has free will because he is not bound by any choices and can "will" anything he desires.

Nothing he wills has any threat of punishment attached to it. He can kill at will, he can create at will.

He is free

We are not

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
Paul said with the flesh it serves sin and with his mind He serves God.

My Bibles say that Paul was controlled by the Flesh, that is, the Sinful Nature.

1 Corinthians 3:2-3 KJV - "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

Grailhunter · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
Can you explain your views to me on this question: you believe God is in control of everything, yes?

I believe that God is in control of everything, yes. I don't see any possible way around it. The Bible is about Power and Control. The Bible is written about the Power that God has over all of Creation, right down to the degree that He has written an Almighty Plan that takes humans through the Valley of Death, but ultimately shows His Power by bringing us out of that remarkable Valley of Death. How does God do this? Through the Sacrifice of Christ, the Tree of Life. Yes, the same Tree of Life in the Book of Revelation, is the same Tree of Life in the Garden, the Tree of which Adam and Eve were denied the chance to eat and be healed of their spiritual malady. God placed a Flaming Sword to block the way to the Tree of Life, for all of humanity would need to wait for the Justifying Bread of Life Who would hang on the cross and die. We would have to wait some 5,500 years for this Plan to become fulfilled . . . and through the Circumcision of Heart, this act of Christ is what determines our Purity . . . nothing else. It is through this lifting of the Curse that we are made Right with God. This the Plan of God and this Plan of Spiritual Circumcision [will] take place for all that the Father has given to His Son, Jesus.

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

Whetstone said:
If God rules then only he has real free will.

Can you not see the irony in that statement? A teacher controls the environment, controls the choices, restricts actions and steers people down the path THEY want the person to tread. How is that free will? Teaching humans how to conform to and obey God's will is clearly the very antithesis of free will. It is teaching people to be subservient.

Again, if we are destined to simply follow "his will" then that is not free will for us

I just can't understand why people struggle with this so much. I think it's a form of denial. Our very existence in this physical world is forced upon us, it is not a choice, not free will. The environment we are stuffed into is completely dictatorial. The Earth is already totally controlled by groups of human who control all the resources, all the laws, all the prosperity and wealth. We are born into a slave world to live whatever years are afforded us as debt slaves, existing in laws and systems of taxation that ensure the vast majority of us can never get ahead of the game and are always treading water. We are not remotely free.

When you restrict the choices a person has then you remove free will. If you pass laws that say a woman can only have ne child, then you have removed her free will. She may still choose whether or not to have that one child but that does not alter the fact that she does not have free will.
The value of that choice, is greatly lessened by the limitations imposed.

I'm in some agreement with OP here. Choice does NOT equate to free will.

In fact it's the complete opposite !

The fact that ANY choice is offered is evidence that we do not have free will.

That's because any choice, by very definition must be some form of restriction, some level of limitation of options and control by external force.

The greater that control is, the less and less the value of the choice is.

Only God has free will because he is not bound by any choices and can "will" anything he desires.

Nothing he wills has any threat of punishment attached to it. He can kill at will, he can create at will.

He is free

We are not

Quit trolling
0

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
I believe that God is in control of everything, yes. I don't see any possible way around it. The Bible is about Power and Control. The Bible is written about the Power that God has over all of Creation, right down to the degree that He has written an Almighty Plan that takes humans through the Valley of Death, but ultimately shows His Power by bringing us out of that remarkable Valley of Death. How does God do this? Through the Sacrifice of Christ, the Tree of Life. Yes, the same Tree of Life in the Book of Revelation, is the same Tree of Life in the Garden, the Tree of which Adam and Eve were denied the chance to eat and be healed of their spiritual malady. God placed a Flaming Sword to block the way to the Tree of Life, for all of humanity would need to wait for the Justifying Bread of Life Who would hang on the cross and die. We would have to wait some 5,500 years for this Plan to become fulfilled . . . and through the Circumcision of Heart, this act of Christ is what determines our Purity . . . nothing else. It is through this lifting of the Curse that we are made Right with God. This the Plan of God and this Plan of Spiritual Circumcision [will] take place for all that the Father has given to His Son, Jesus.

Ok. Therefore, logically every person whom goes to Hell is because God created them for that purpose and He wills that they burn for eternity.

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
Ok. Therefore, logically every person who goes to Hell is because God created them for that purpose and He wills that they burn for eternity.

That's the way that I see the Bible explains it. Yes.

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
That's the way that I see the Bible explains it. Yes.

I'm actually surprised here that you acknowledge this. Most Calvinist-style believers I known immediately start backpedaling here and essentially go "no, man has free will to choose to be damned, just not to accept Christ. God doesn't create folks specifically to pre-destine them the Hell". A backpedaling that I find to be self-destructing to their won position.

So, while I still passionately disagree with your beliefs here and find them completely contradictory to scripture, I do very much acknowledge your logical consistency and sticking with your beliefs.

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
So, while I still passionately disagree with your beliefs here and find them completely contradictory to scripture, I do very much acknowledge your logical consistency and sticking with your beliefs.

Well, thank you!

I believe that I take an unemotional stance on Scripture when it comes to interpreting it. I have no agenda other than to know the Truth. I don't care what the Truth is, as long as I have it. To live without the Truth [is] the Matrix. To live in a world of deception is absolutely no different from believing in Santa Claus, the Jolly Green Giant, and Cinderella. I don't want any part of that . . . I have to have the Truth.

That said, I 100% understand why others do not believe what I believe. For, I didn't believe these things until I began to actually catalogue Scripture that deals with this issue. I had no choice but to shockingly come to the conclusions that I have. I may very well end up changing my beliefs one day . . . that happens in the process of Sanctification.

I've recently changed my beliefs in three areas, I do believe. I am not here to ram anything down anyone's throat . . . I don't require that anyone to believe me. I'm actually not needed at all!

Jane_Doe22 · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group said:
Well, thank you!

I believe that I take an unemotional stance on Scripture when it comes to interpreting it. I have no agenda other than to know the Truth. I don't care what the Truth is, as long as I have it. To live without the Truth [is] the Matrix. To live in a world of deception is absolutely no different from believing in Santa Claus, the Jolly Green Giant, and Cinderella. I don't want any part of that . . . I have to have the Truth.

That said, I 100% understand why others do not believe what I believe. For, I didn't believe these things until I began to actually catalogue Scripture that deals with this issue. I had no choice but to shockingly come to the conclusions that I have. I may very well end up changing my beliefs one day . . . that happens in the process of Sanctification.

I've recently changed my beliefs in three areas, I do believe. I am not here to ram anything down anyone's throat . . . I don't require that anyone to believe me. I'm actually not needed at all!

My hat is off to you good sir!
I too am radically devoted to truth, and the search for it. And while we’ve come to polar opposite stances, I do indeed salute your methodology.

Grailhunter · Feb 19, 2021

2nd Timothy Group · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
My hat is off to you good sir!
I too am radically devoted to truth, and the search for it. And while we’ve come to polar opposite stances, I do indeed salute your methodology.

And thank you, good sir!

You know, I'm not here to talk to people that believe exactly what I believe (though that [would] be amazing) but am more interested in what others believe. Why? I'm after the Truth. And even if someone believes the polar opposite, and even if I believe I am right, I will either change my belief or my belief will become stronger.

Food for thought: Teaching people untruth's should be a rather frightening thought. Having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I don't recommend anyone willfully teaching anything that is not True. In fact, that's what motivates me into knowing the Truth . . . it isn't about being right or wrong, rather, it's about the Power of God.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Jane_Doe22 said:
YOU just preached that God choose who is saved and hence He alone choose whom is damned. Own what you are saying.

And no that's not scriptural.

It is God's will that ALL men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth ... we know they will not, and God foreknows who they are who will not. It was not His choice that man should ever be lost, He did not predestine it, He foreknew it.

What He predestined was man's salvation and He chose a people through whom He would achieve it.

Man chose, he has already chosen, it is not something that will happen in the future it has already happened. Man is doomed

... apart from God's mercy.

Do you yourself believe that God planned for man to sin?

quietthinker · Feb 19, 2021

Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick
....arrrrgggghhhhhh, I got tricked today.....I shouldn't have cleaned my teeth!

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

quietthinker said:
Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick
....arrrrgggghhhhhh, I got tricked today.....I shouldn't have cleaned my teeth!

For shame...no hope for you!...
I got tricked too...into responding to this ridiculous thread...and I keep responding....it's not my will to respond.....I CAN'T STOP!!! HELP...SOMEONE HELP ME STOP RESPONDING TO THIS THREAD! I don't have the free will to stop...the devil is making me do it....

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

prove that you have freewill ... lay down your life and take it up again, should be a simple thing to do for someone with freewill.

The bible says of man that "death hath become their shepherd"

Death is more than simply pointing your toes up and croaking, it is man's shepherd, it governs our whole existence from waking up in the morning to retiring to sleep our time is consumed with staying alive.

We have to work to earn money to eat and to clothe ourselves and keep a shelter over our heads.

Man is a slave, only Christ can save him and when He does He restores our ability to choose.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Paul does not say we had freewill before Christ rescued us, he said we were slaves, in bondage.

Heart2Soul · Feb 19, 2021

Billy Evmur said:
prove that you have freewill ... lay down your life and take it up again, should be a simple thing to do for someone with freewill.

The bible says of man that "death hath become their shepherd"

Death is more than simply pointing your toes up and croaking, it is man's shepherd, it governs our whole existence from waking up in the morning to retiring to sleep our time is consumed with staying alive.

We have to work to earn money to eat and to clothe ourselves and keep a shelter over our heads.

Man is a slave, only Christ can save him and when He does He restores our ability to choose.

Bro, you are so confused as to what free will is all about.
I am done with this thread.
Have a blessed night.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

quietthinker said:
Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick
....arrrrgggghhhhhh, I got tricked today.....I shouldn't have cleaned my teeth!

This shows how wealthy Americans and western nations are DELUDED by their wealth, there are places in the world where niceties which we accept as norm are rare to impossible. There are places in this world where mothers can't keep the flies away from their babies.

Billy Evmur · Feb 19, 2021

Heart2Soul said:
Bro, you are so confused as to what free will is all about.
I am done with this thread.
Have a blessed night.

or maybe YOU don't know what freewill is ....

Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

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