Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

K9Buck said:

The great thing about purgatory is that there is no demonic or Satanic influence being used against us. For reasons unknown to me, many Catholics believe that purgatory is a place of pain. I don't believe that. I believe it's a place of redemption from the chains of sin.

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strange how Jesus didn't finish paying for sins isn't it?

quietthinker said:

strange how Jesus didn't finish paying for sins isn't it?

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It's not about being forgiven; it's about being ready to meet God. Nothing unholy can stand in front of God, right? The view is that people are not instantaneously changed and purified. But, maybe that view is mistaken. Who knows? Why would we have free will on Earth but then be wiped clean in the afterlife, sort of like doing a factory reset on one's phone. Is that what you believe?

K9Buck said:

It's not about being forgiven; it's about being ready to meet God. Nothing unholy can stand in front of God, right? The view is that people are not instantaneously changed and purified. But, maybe that view is mistaken. Who knows? Why would we have free will on Earth but then be wiped clean in the afterlife, sort of like doing a factory reset on one's phone. Is that what you believe?

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We walk by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.
One must know that the teaching of purgatory is contrary to and is not found at all in scripture. This is self evident to all who know the scriptures.
You have the scriptures at your disposal.....make the effort and become familiar with them....for your great joy.

quietthinker said:

We walk by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.
One must know that the teaching of purgatory is contrary to and is not found at all in scripture. This is self evident to all who know the scriptures.
You have the scriptures at your disposal.....make the effort and become familiar with them....for your great joy.

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The fact is, I don't know if we immediately get to meet God the instant we die. If you claim to KNOW that we do, that's ok with me. God bless you.

K9Buck said:

The fact is, I don't know if we immediately get to meet God the instant we die. If you claim to KNOW that we do, that's ok with me. God bless you.

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No, I am not claiming that.....there are other options the which purgatory is not one of.

quietthinker said:

No, I am not claiming that.....there are other options the which purgatory is not one of.

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What are the other options?

K9Buck said:

What are the other options?

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That all who die (righteous and wicked) are dead in the sense that they 'sleep' (without consciousness in any form) meaning, they await a resurrection. The scripture speaks in terms of two resurrections; the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked.....at different stages of the time line.

The righteous have appropriated the free gift given them to life. They do this by believing what God has promised (faith) ; their reward is eternally theirs in physical reality when Jesus returns.

The wicked have spurned the same gift of life given them; their refusal through deception and choice resulting in disbelieving God's promise. Their resurrection will be to hear sentence or consequence of their choice, resulting in what the scripture calls 'the second death' ie erased from existence.

quietthinker said:

That all who die (righteous and wicked) are dead in the sense that they 'sleep' (without consciousness in any form)

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What about "To be absent from the body is to be with the lord" (I'm paraphrasing)?

K9Buck said:

Wiki is fine for many things unless the topic is even remotely linked to a political, social, or religious issue.

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i have used wiki since the early 00s, i have always loved encyclopedias, one thinng i have noticed the last few years is that any subject that does not strictly comply with mainstream textbook teachings, despite the evidence, is always shown as spurious.

Berserk said:

In other words, God takes away our free will to make us suitable candidates for Heaven. This undermines the value of our free choices in this life and raises this question: Then why wouldn't a God of love also control the wills of Hitler and Stalin, transforming them to make them suitable candidates for Heaven?

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The protestant view is that, if it's not explained in the bible, then it cannot exist. That's an extraordinary leap of faith.

K9Buck said:

What about "To be absent from the body is to be with the lord" (I'm paraphrasing)?

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For your benefit, this text is found in 2 Corinthians 5:8
Contextually Paul speaks here of seeing what is not visible to human eye sight. Ideally it would be better to be in a reality where immortality is present but we are not.....we are mortal and so live by faith in what is to come...we do not live by sight.

Here are a couple of texts you may not be familiar with describing the process of transition from mortality to immortality...the when and the how.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Berserk said:

1. This thread will focus on the biblical grounds for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Famed evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis embraced this doctrine and famously said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." The doctrine of Purgatory is tied with the Catholic obligation to pray for those in Purgatory and is therefore an extension in their doctrine of the Communion of Saints, to which the Apostles' Creed gives assent. So this thread will also discuss the biblical basis for this doctrine, as well as other NT texts that imply the possibility of ultimate release from Hell. Remember, I'm not Catholic, but am rather a Pentecostal United Methodist who has a lot of respect for Catholic distinctives, even for ones I ultimately disagree with. I find that Fundamentalists are generally clueless about how Catholic distinctives might be anchored to Scripture. This thread is intended to begin to remedy that and thereby to shed some light on why some Evangelicals in my town have left their churches to find God real in our local Catholic church. (1) Jesus' preferred term for Hell is Gehenna term that originally referred to a Jewish valley and trash dump outside Jerusalem. It is therefore relevant to investigate what this term means when "Gehenna" is applied to Hell. In ancient rabbinic usage, it can function as a term for temporary postmortem purgation or purification and therefore nicely overlaps with the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. Here are just 2 rabbinic texts that trace the rabbinic concept of Gehenna to the period from the 2nd century BC to the 2nd century AD: (a) The ancient Jewish sages apply a saying of rabbi Jose ben Johanan of Jerusalem from the 2nd century BC to a postmortem Gehenna (Mishnah Aboth 1:5). (b) Rabbi Akiba began his rabbinic studies around 75 AD and was born prior the Jewish revolt in 66-70 AD: He teaches that Gehenna is a postmortem Hell to which the unrighteous are confined for 12 months: “The judgment of the unrighteous in Gehenna shall endure 12 months (Misnah Eduyoth 2:10).” (2) Jesus' preference for this term rather than other available terms suggests that He embraces its basic concept. But this claim must be bolstered by Gospel texts in which Jesus implies that one's sojourn in Gehenna can be of temporary duration. Here are 3 relevant texts: (a) "That servant who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted shall be beaten with many stripes. But the one who did not know, but did what deserved a beating shall be beaten with few stripes. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required (Luke 12:47-48)." The application of the finite imagery "many stripes"/ "few stripes" implies limited duration and ultimate release. (b) "In anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34). In the Parable of the 2 Debtors, the image of a debtor's prison is applied to Hell. Note that the unforgiving servant is not confined to life imprisonment; rather, the implication is that the debt can ultimately be paid, or perhaps expiated. (c) "Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on your way to court Truly I with Him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you will never get out until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)." Note the wording that implies the possibility of ultimate release from Gehenna. 7 points support this interpretation: (a) This saying makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be teaching his criminal disciple how to beat the rap, waiting until they walk to court with the accuser they have wronged! (b) Crucially, Jesus always reserves the solemn phrase "Truly I say tell you" for our relationship with God and never applies it to mundane daily issues. (c) In the Judaism of late antiquity "prison" is a common term for Hell. (d) The word "debt" (Aramaic: "hob") is a standard word for "sin" and is used that way in the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:4). (e) In the first 2 centuries, this saying is consistently spiritualized as opposed to taken literally as a reference to court litigation. (f) The same saying is inserted in an eschatological context in Luke 12:57-59, a fact that lends credibility to its application to a limited purgative stay in Gehenna. (g) This interpretation brings 5:25-26 in line with the similar imagery in 18:34. (3) "If the work is burned up, he [the worker whose service cannot survive close scrutiny] will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)." The meaning of the phrase "saved, yet so as by fire" cannot be reduced to "saved by the skin of his teeth" because its meaning is determined by the use of that phrase in first century Palestinian culture. The phrase is often rabbinically applied to the fate of Jews of mediocre spirituality whose works don't survive close scrutiny and therefore they are temporarily consigned to the purgative or purifying fires of Gehenna before gaining access to Heaven. [For references see Strack-Billerbeck 4,2: 1043-1049.] As a student of Rabbi Gamaliel, Paul no doubt learned the phrase from his earlier Pharisaic studies, embraced it, and applied it to the fate of Christians who build inadequately on Christ as the foundation of their faith.

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Do you know what Gehenna was before it was a trash dump, why Jesus referred to it?

From the Hebrew the word "Ge-Hinnom" the Greek translation is "Geenna" comes the literal translation of "valley of the son of Hinnom." This valley was just a very short distance from Jerusalem.

It was called Topheth in the earlier days found in 2 Kings 23:10. It's the place where the Children of Israel sacrificed their children to the god Molech when they turned away from God to serve other gods.

The great Jewish historian, Josephus, tells us that they tied up the small kids and placed them in the fire as the priests beat the drums to drown out the screaming of the children in the flames. This is far away from God they were.

Every single man, woman, and child in Israel knew what Jesus was speaking of when He said "Gehenna." That's why He used it to represent the horrors of sin against God, as here represented as hell.

Berserk said:

1. This thread will focus on the biblical grounds for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Famed evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis embraced this doctrine and famously said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." The doctrine of Purgatory is tied with the Catholic obligation to pray for those in Purgatory and is therefore an extension in their doctrine of the Communion of Saints, to which the Apostles' Creed gives assent. So this thread will also discuss the biblical basis for this doctrine, as well as other NT texts that imply the possibility of ultimate release from Hell. Remember, I'm not Catholic, but am rather a Pentecostal United Methodist who has a lot of respect for Catholic distinctives, even for ones I ultimately disagree with. I find that Fundamentalists are generally clueless about how Catholic distinctives might be anchored to Scripture. This thread is intended to begin to remedy that and thereby to shed some light on why some Evangelicals in my town have left their churches to find God real in our local Catholic church. (1) Jesus' preferred term for Hell is Gehenna term that originally referred to a Jewish valley and trash dump outside Jerusalem. It is therefore relevant to investigate what this term means when "Gehenna" is applied to Hell. In ancient rabbinic usage, it can function as a term for temporary postmortem purgation or purification and therefore nicely overlaps with the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. Here are just 2 rabbinic texts that trace the rabbinic concept of Gehenna to the period from the 2nd century BC to the 2nd century AD: (a) The ancient Jewish sages apply a saying of rabbi Jose ben Johanan of Jerusalem from the 2nd century BC to a postmortem Gehenna (Mishnah Aboth 1:5). (b) Rabbi Akiba began his rabbinic studies around 75 AD and was born prior the Jewish revolt in 66-70 AD: He teaches that Gehenna is a postmortem Hell to which the unrighteous are confined for 12 months: “The judgment of the unrighteous in Gehenna shall endure 12 months (Misnah Eduyoth 2:10).” (2) Jesus' preference for this term rather than other available terms suggests that He embraces its basic concept. But this claim must be bolstered by Gospel texts in which Jesus implies that one's sojourn in Gehenna can be of temporary duration. Here are 3 relevant texts: (a) "That servant who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted shall be beaten with many stripes. But the one who did not know, but did what deserved a beating shall be beaten with few stripes. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required (Luke 12:47-48)." The application of the finite imagery "many stripes"/ "few stripes" implies limited duration and ultimate release. (b) "In anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34). In the Parable of the 2 Debtors, the image of a debtor's prison is applied to Hell. Note that the unforgiving servant is not confined to life imprisonment; rather, the implication is that the debt can ultimately be paid, or perhaps expiated. (c) "Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on your way to court Truly I with Him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you will never get out until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)." Note the wording that implies the possibility of ultimate release from Gehenna. 7 points support this interpretation: (a) This saying makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be teaching his criminal disciple how to beat the rap, waiting until they walk to court with the accuser they have wronged! (b) Crucially, Jesus always reserves the solemn phrase "Truly I say tell you" for our relationship with God and never applies it to mundane daily issues. (c) In the Judaism of late antiquity "prison" is a common term for Hell. (d) The word "debt" (Aramaic: "hob") is a standard word for "sin" and is used that way in the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:4). (e) In the first 2 centuries, this saying is consistently spiritualized as opposed to taken literally as a reference to court litigation. (f) The same saying is inserted in an eschatological context in Luke 12:57-59, a fact that lends credibility to its application to a limited purgative stay in Gehenna. (g) This interpretation brings 5:25-26 in line with the similar imagery in 18:34. (3) "If the work is burned up, he [the worker whose service cannot survive close scrutiny] will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)." The meaning of the phrase "saved, yet so as by fire" cannot be reduced to "saved by the skin of his teeth" because its meaning is determined by the use of that phrase in first century Palestinian culture. The phrase is often rabbinically applied to the fate of Jews of mediocre spirituality whose works don't survive close scrutiny and therefore they are temporarily consigned to the purgative or purifying fires of Gehenna before gaining access to Heaven. [For references see Strack-Billerbeck 4,2: 1043-1049.] As a student of Rabbi Gamaliel, Paul no doubt learned the phrase from his earlier Pharisaic studies, embraced it, and applied it to the fate of Christians who build inadequately on Christ as the foundation of their faith.

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Purgatory is not found in Scripture, period. It is a false doctrine. Nor is praying to saints.

Berserk said:

No, the historical background of a term like "Gehenna" is irrelevant to the question of its contemporary metaphorical meaning as determined by Jewish usage in Jesus' time. For the ancient rabbis, "Gehenna" refers to Hell, a place of postmortem purification to which a Jew of mediocre spirituality might be consigned for a year or more to prepare him for his ascent to Heaven.--in other words, a realm that neatly fits the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. So Jesus' preference for this term is instructive because he seems to equate it to "a prison" to which sinners are consigned, not eternally, but until he pays off his spiritual debt (See Matthew 18:34; cp. 5:25-36). These rabbis even use the expression "saved, yet so as by fire" to describe the Jewish sojourn in Gehenna, yes, the same expression used by Paul to describe the postmortem fate of professing Christians whose works don't stand up to close scrutiny (1 Cor. 3:15). So in this way Paul anticipates the later doctrine of Purgatory. Evangelicals don't get to ignore the cultural background of this phrase in favor of the alleged meaning "saved by the skin of their teeth!"

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There is no purgatory in scripture, it simply doesn't exist. It takes a whole lot of misinterpretation to even suggest one.

But hey, you believe as you like, that's fine with me, I just can't find it in any way or in God's purpose for man, and I have searched diligently for it!

Charlie24 said:

There is no purgatory in scripture, it simply doesn't exist. It takes a whole lot of misinterpretation to even suggest one.

But hey, you believe as you like, that's fine with me, I just can't find it in any way or in God's purpose for man, and I have searched diligently for it!

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Correct. It's not there.

K9Buck said:

The great thing about purgatory is that there is no demonic or Satanic influence being used against us. For reasons unknown to me, many Catholics believe that purgatory is a place of pain. I don't believe that. I believe it's a place of redemption from the chains of sin.

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I agree with you in that.

I have never thought of such as a place of pain, Moses was their till Jesus came for him and all, Heaven was not yet set for such people, as Jesus had to come first, so as of one to be elevated to Sainthood worthy of Jesus Christ.

The Kingdom of God here on earth was kicked off created when Jesus went to Heaven and that's the point of such a world has been set for us, we have to abide in Jesus Christ and not of this world that is under delusions, they who get the message and follow through go to Heaven when there body dies and there Soul goes to Heaven. but some are willing to serve Jesus Christ, only that this world is so full of delusions, that not all are so free from such delusions corrupting them, they have faith but they do not know what they do ? as Jesus pointed out about the Jews who sat back and let him be killed ? for they did not know, they had been mislead by the cunning of the ones who crept in unawares to the Jews, they took over the Vineyard and killed all Gods Prophets.
So they who took over the vineyards as such were playing the poor Jews for fools leading them astray for all them years, only for the Jews who had much faith in Moses could have enough faith in Jesus, yet even Paul denied him in fear of such bastards, remember the Cock story. that was the power of such bastard so called Jews in control, remember St Stephen informed all of them the history who they truly were and they killed him for stating the facts and them Paul got the message and turned to follow in Christ Jesus come Hell or high water.
The so called Jews went to hell, but Jesus said as to them who did not know what they do, For God to for give them. so Jesus did not send them to Hell due to not knowing what they do. so they would of went to Purgatory who did not go to Hell.

Paul would of went to Purgatory first before he went to Heaven, there is noting wrong with paying for your Sins, (have you ever prayed ? ) one pays not to be led into Sin in fact so I see no problem or fear in such at all, unless one is a bludger who only seeks for ones self, plenty of them around mind you that I know of, they want everything to come to them for there own worldly convenience. they will state childish rubbish that such a one is working for there way into Heaven, but they have no idea that it's not they who do the work, it's Christ in them that does the work truly, but bludgers have a phobia of anything associated with work to understand the reality of the situation at hand.
Now if one comes knocking on my door in need ? now I myself may not want to deal with such, but I am compelled to if I can help them out. I am a servant of Jesus Christ I serve him as I serve them. I do not hand them a serpent and tell them on your way.

Many claim that their Sins have been payed for ? Oh ! Just believe and you are Saved ? C'mon Jesus pointed out such people who make such claims and says that he never knew them.
I have a mate that claims that he is saved regardless of what he does, it's a one off thing he claims and now he can kill whoever he wants regardless and still go to Heaven without repenting anything at all. he claims to be a fundamentalist. the deal has been struck he claims it's a done deal with him and god.