Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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reformed1689

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Let me explain this to you..

Those who God foreknew, has to be talking about the Born again.
Why? Because God foreknows everyone.
So, its the elect who are born again, and this starts their process of being conformed into the image of Christ.
That conforming, this end result, to be conformed into the Image of Christ, is what is pre-determined or the pre-destined OUTCOME, of being born again.

Let me simplify it more for you..

Im born again.
God knew i would be, before He created the earth.
See, the foreknowledge of God, knows all about all...........at all times.

So, God knew i would choose Christ, and this has a pre-determined end result, that God foreknew.
That end result is that i am destined to be conformed into the image of Christ, and God foreknew this about me, before He made the Planets.
I suggest you actually study what proginosko means.
 

reformed1689

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The context of Roman's chapter 9 is understood and explained by John 3:36
Also...
The elect are elected by Faith, in the "time of the Gentiles".
No its not. They are tied together but it has no bearing on the fact that the elect are already determined and have are drawn specifically by God to His son. You need to read the rest of John's Gospel.
 

reformed1689

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So that would be you, then?

No wait, you're a predestined elect, so, you are one the chosen, as how could you not be....
And let me guess, all of your family, and friends, and church members..
its only those who are outside your CULT, that are "vessels of wrath".

Your theology is demonic., as you deny that God's Grace is freely given.
You change Grace into a lie.
This makes you Galatians 1:8
Ad Hominem and Strawman arguments. I do not presume to know who is or is not elect outside of my own salvation.
 

Grailhunter

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You have a right to your opinion but not your own facts. The fact is, you did not, and I would assume cannot, respond to my actual arguments so you engaged in ad hominem.

facts are facts and are owned by no one. So all I have to do is state the facts and you lose.
 

Grailhunter

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Except you didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion. Apparently you don't know the difference. Fact of the matter is you did not engage with my argument, do you care to do so?

I do not state opinions I state the God's honest truth.
 

reformed1689

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I have.
Even have given you the exact wording in the scriptures that you said did not exist.
No. You never responded to post 165. I have quoted it below to give you another chance.

Neither of those verses deal with individuals.

For example. You rightly say that John 3:16 does not say "For God so loved the ones he chose" but it also does not say "For God so loved every person"

The reason for that is, you are asking John 3:16 to answer a question that it does not actually address.
 

Grailhunter

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No. You never responded to post 165. I have quoted it below to give you another chance.

I am surprised you brought this up again because it completely wreaks your position on this.
It is not an answer it is a statement from Yahweh on how much He loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. He points to no particular group.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.
The scripture does not say God loves only those He chose....the elect...the select...the Jew...the Christian...God loved the world as a whole.
It has nothing to do with selective choice of who He loved. It is none selective...the whole world. So what is His will for the world, His desire....
1st Timothy 2:4 "God desires that all sinners be saved."

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is patient towards you, not willing that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance."

Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of the Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

The great monster puppet master of the Calvinists does not exist....The Christian God is a God of love, not damnation.

If it has anything to do with God's will, it is only a blessing for all.
 

reformed1689

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It is not an answer it is a statement from Yahweh on how much He loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. He points to no particular group.
Who said anything about pointing to a particular group? I sure didn't.
The scripture does not say God loves only those He chose....the elect...the select...the Jew...the Christian...God loved the world as a whole.
Nor does it say, "God loved every individual." There is no amount of twisting the word "world" that makes that word mean every individual.
It has nothing to do with selective choice of who He loved. It is none selective...the whole world.
Agreed, this verse does not deal with election. World here means humanity as a whole, not individuals.
So what is His will for the world, His desire....
1st Timothy 2:4 "God desires that all sinners be saved."
That is not what 1 Tim. 2:4 says. It says all people. And if you look at the context of the preceding verses you clearly see it is all TYPES of people. It is not talking about individuals. If God wanted all to be saved, all would be saved.

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is patient towards you, not willing that any should parish, but that all should come to repentance."
Yes, you all have brought this verse up before. He is patient toward "you" not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance. The "you" is the key here. Who is the you in this verse? Chapter 3 verse 1 gives that answer. He is writing to the beloved. The elect. So he is not willing that any of the elect shall perish because that is the you. Again, if it meant every individual, all would be saved. But we know that is not the case.

The Matthew verse is taken out of context so I am not even going to address it.

The great monster puppet master of the Calvinists does not exist....The Christian God is a God of love, not damnation.
Being a God of love is one of his qualities, but he is also a God of wrath. You can't only choose to focus on one quality and forget the rest.
If it has anything to do with God's will, it is only a blessing for all.
That is not what Scripture states.
 

Grailhunter

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Who said anything about pointing to a particular group? I sure didn't.

Nor does it say, "God loved every individual." There is no amount of twisting the word "world" that makes that word mean every individual.

Agreed, this verse does not deal with election. World here means humanity as a whole, not individuals.

That is not what 1 Tim. 2:4 says. It says all people. And if you look at the context of the preceding verses you clearly see it is all TYPES of people. It is not talking about individuals. If God wanted all to be saved, all would be saved.


Yes, you all have brought this verse up before. He is patient toward "you" not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance. The "you" is the key here. Who is the you in this verse? Chapter 3 verse 1 gives that answer. He is writing to the beloved. The elect. So he is not willing that any of the elect shall perish because that is the you. Again, if it meant every individual, all would be saved. But we know that is not the case.

The Matthew verse is taken out of context so I am not even going to address it.


Being a God of love is one of his qualities, but he is also a God of wrath. You can't only choose to focus on one quality and forget the rest.

That is not what Scripture states.


Nor does it say, "God loved every individual." There is no amount of twisting the word "world" that makes that word mean every individual.

I disagree...the world means everyone, everybody, every individual, all of us and you.


That is not what 1 Tim. 2:4 says. It says all people. And if you look at the context of the preceding verses you clearly see it is all TYPES of people. It is not talking about individuals. If God wanted all to be saved, all would be saved.

I disagree..."God desires that all sinners be saved." We are all sinners....welcome to the proud crowd.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Luke 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Mark 2:17 "And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

1st Timothy 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Yes, you all have brought this verse up before. He is patient toward "you" not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance. The "you" is the key here. Who is the you in this verse? Chapter 3 verse 1 gives that answer. He is writing to the beloved. The elect. So he is not willing that any of the elect shall perish because that is the you. Again, if it meant every individual, all would be saved. But we know that is not the case.

You is all, you all, we all, them all, others, the world, the guy next door...lol

The Matthew verse is taken out of context so I am not even going to address it.

I don't blame you because it completely wreaks your position.
Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of the Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."
It does not matter if He was talking about the children before Him or new Christians, because it is the will of God the Father that none should perish....it more or less agrees with John 3:16

And there is more to John chapter 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
So it is all about the world...not the elect.


Being a God of love is one of his qualities, but he is also a God of wrath. You can't only choose to focus on one quality and forget the rest.

As a matter of fact....I can chose to see the love of God....you will see His wrath soon enough. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya....
A smart person would have given up by now.
 
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justbyfaith

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L - Limited Atonement: hyper-Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and that therefore, if you are of the non-elect, you cannot be saved even if you were to do what it takes to enter into salvation (such as the prescriptions in Romans 10:8-13 and Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39).

I would teach that this is not a biblical doctrine. For in John 6:37, it becomes clear that whoever comes to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out.

It should also be clear that scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Peter 3:9) and that therefore Limited Atonement is a fallacy.

The reality therefore is Unlimited Atonement but Limited Salvation; because Universalism is not the reality. Atonement is based on the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross for the sins of all men; salvation is based on whether a man receives Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

I - Irresistible Grace: Calvinism teaches that if someone is of the elect, absolutely nothing can prevent him from being saved. He will be irresistibly drawn to Christ and cannot make any other decision than to receive Christ within his lifetime.

I would respond to this by saying that the Lord is not a mafia boss and He does not give us "an offer that we can't refuse". Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a gentleman.

Also, I once so wanted to believe in this that I found verses that seemed to substantiate it. In 1 Corinthians 13:8, "Love never fails" and in Revelation 19:6 we have the idea that the Lord is Omnipotent. Who then can resist salvation if He wants you saved?

The problem with this is that it leads incontrovertibly to the idea of either Limited Atonement or Universalism. We have seen above that Limited Atonement is a fallacy.

And Universalism is a fallacy because Jesus spoke of a literal hell that people go to (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46) and therefore not everyone gets saved.

So then, if neither Universalism nor Limited Atonement are the reality, then neither is Irresistible Grace.

What then does "Love never fail" to do, in all of God's Omnipotence?

It doesn't fail to give man a degree of sovereignty by which he can choose whether to receive Jesus as his Lord and Saviour and be saved; or else to reject Jesus as Lord and Saviour and be damned.

Finally, the idea that grace is irresistible is refuted by Acts of the Apostles 7:51.
 
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