So what's so new about the new Covenant, and is it better, really?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Tong2020

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,854
848
113
*
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
Okay.

God made a covenant with Abraham.

God promised Abraham that He would save every one of his future descendants at some point in time.

This promise is to future national Israel and is described throughout the O.T. prophets.

When the Holy Ghost was poured out a Pentecost, this event was depicted as a part of that future promise, but not the fulfillment.

What Pentecost was is an INCLUSION into the future promise to national Israel, not the fulfillment.

This inclusion is not the big event to come yet, but described by Paul as "partial" and "seeing through a dark glass' ,today, of this future Millennial event.

We have simply been INCLUDED in a partial way into a promise to Abraham that will only be fulfilled at the return of Christ. We only see things barely, through a dark glass now.
Well, I am sorry but that was not a clear answer to my question. But anyway, I’ll just take it then that you believe that the church is not in covenant with God. I may be mistaking you, but that is what I get from your indirect answer to my question.

As for me, it is clear that the Christians are in a new covenant with God, whose mediator is Jesus Christ.

Tong
R1928
 
Last edited:

Tong2020

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,854
848
113
*
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
Tong2020 said:
Since you do not know what you missed in Ezekiel 33:15, How could you throw in scriptures just like that thinking that by doing so makes any difference? Remember, you referred to Ezekiel 33:15 as support to your doctrine of what somebody here calls “lucky repentance” as a way for one to get saved.
Okay; tell me what I missed in Ezekiel 33:15 and how 1 John 3:9 does not answer it.
Okay. To be clear then you can start telling me about your so called “lucky repentance” doctrine coming from Ezekiel 33, and from there, I’ll show you what you missed in Ezekiel 33:15.

Tong
R1929
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, agree with all that. In fact, all of that, pentecost, the spread of the gospel, the hope of the second coming, was all integral components on the new covenant, which was a one promise that God Himself will fulfill all the promises to mankind that He began to give in Eden...
KJV Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The covenant continues to be fulfilled today and one day all will be concluded with the new heavens and the new earth.
It isn't just for a racial segment called Jews.
Amen.

my point is that God made no covenant with you or I.

He made it with Abraham over his future descendants called national Israel per the end times and the Millennial reign.

You and I made no deal with God.

We are simply included in their future deal.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If it leads people to Christ, which is what you have been saying all along, it is an act of grace.
Law is not Grace.

Law ends for the individual as Grace takes over.

If we backslide or try to be righteous per the Law, we go back to Law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BloodBought 1953

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Law now is under Grace.
The Law now is not above all like it is with the Jews OT.
The Law still stands but is now under Grace, so the Law as it was does not stand as it was in the OT but now that Grace surpasses over the Law in order to take in account the human aspects without looking at the subject at hand like a Nazi would, the letter of the Law ? type, Nazi says oh your 2ed generation removed from worshiping Jews so you are going to Jail regardless of even if your were parents were Christians and your self, but if you were 3 times removed regardless you could be on your way as long as you were not openly against the Socialist Zionist and National Socialist .
Socialism has no time for God because Socialism a mans works creation in fact. their god is Socialism and Socialism is the Letter of the Law, because Gods Grace does not abide in any one who is a Socialist.
If you talk to a Socialist, they think that grace is poise, typical of carnal morons who do not know the difference between something that stinks and clay.
No, Law is not under Grace.

Law leads us to Grace, as a schoolmaster teaches students.

When Grace comes, we are no longer under a schoolmaster(Law)....


23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BloodBought 1953

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, I am sorry but that was not a clear answer to my question. But anyway, I’ll just take it then that you believe that the church is not in covenant with God. I may be mistaking you, but that is what I get from your indirect answer to my question.

As for me, it is clear that the Christians are in a new covenant with God, whose mediator is Jesus Christ.

Tong
R1928
I did not say that.

The church as we know it made NO covenant with God.

The covenant was a promise to Abraham about his future physical descendants being saved at the return of Christ en masse(every single living one of them simultaneously).

That has not happened yet.

So far all that has happened is some of them, and some Gentiles have been saved with partial gifts and only see the future kingdom through a very dark lens. Meaning, we have been INCLUDED in God's covenant with Abraham in a limited way only.

God did not lie per His O.T. promises, but man thinks God replaced His promise to Abraham with the church as we know it now.

This idea is called "replacement theology", which basically calls God a liar.
 

Tong2020

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,854
848
113
*
Faith
Christian
Country
Philippines
I did not say that.

The church as we know it made NO covenant with God.

The covenant was a promise to Abraham about his future physical descendants being saved at the return of Christ en masse(every single living one of them simultaneously).

That has not happened yet.

So far all that has happened is some of them, and some Gentiles have been saved with partial gifts and only see the future kingdom through a very dark lens. Meaning, we have been INCLUDED in God's covenant with Abraham in a limited way only.

God did not lie per His O.T. promises, but man thinks God replaced His promise to Abraham with the church as we know it now.

This idea is called "replacement theology", which basically calls God a liar.
<<<Meaning, we have been INCLUDED in God's covenant with Abraham in a limited way only.>>>

If we have been included in God’s covenant, then we are in covenant. In your view perhaps it is limited. But in my view it is not at all limited, for the Christians are Christ’s and are in Christ, the Seed to whom the promises were made.

Tong
R1932
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You think that because I seek to obey God's Spirit that I do not rely on the fact that He died for my sins when I blow it? You are sadly mistaken...

Your Actions speak so loud I can’t hear what you are Saying.....your Faith is in “ Lucky Repentance” , not in the fact that He died for your sins....you prove where your true heart is almost every day in here....it’s “ Why Sure Jesus Saves! Everybody knows that !.....( “B U T” then, ya gotta Repent Of all of your Sins before you die to really make that stuff mean anything.....)
You preach that Jesus died for your Sins as long as you have the “ Luck” to remember and repent of all of them before you die......a very subtle (akin to Satan in the Garden) and Perverted, False Gospel....
According to you , Jesus never died for a Sin that you forgot about and therefore did not repent of.......
Those that preach a different gospel than Paul preached in 1Cor15:1-4 are “ Accursed” or in other words, “ Damned”.......BB didn't say it......Jesus , using Paul as his spokesman did....it’s there in Galatians for all to read......Gal1:8.....
.

You do not know my heart, BB. I know that when I blow it I always fall back on the fact that Jesus died for my sins.

You think that because I seek to be obedient to the Spirit of God, I do not rely on the forgiveness of Christ through His shed blood?

I seek to be obedient to the Spirit because I don't want to add to the suffering that He went through by sinning more.

If anyone loves Him who is forgiven through His blood sacrifice, I think that this would be their attitude.

Also, in confessing my sin, I do not have to confess every sin that I have ever committed in order to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness; but it suffices that I confess my sin nature: for in doing this I confess that I am a sinner and this covers all the sins that I have ever committed.

Nevertheless, whenever the Holy Spirit pinpoints a sin that I may have committed years ago by bringing it to remembrance, I do not fail or neglect to confess that sin; because I believe that in confessing my sin the Lord is able to cleanse me from that sin and make me into a better, more sanctified person.

Law is not Grace.

No, Law is not under Grace.

Psa 119:29, Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I hope you do. But as it is, it seems you are still looking at the letter, the same as was with the Jews of old.

Tong
R1925
No, I do not look at the letter of the law the same as the Jews of old. The Jews kept the ceremonial aspects of the law thinking that saved them, while they condemned themselves by totally disregarded the moral aspects of the law. They treated the law the same way Christians treat grace today. I'm not doing that.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You just keep affirming and confirming that you seem to not realize what a genuine Christian is, one who is born of the Spirit, of the will of God.

Tong
R1926
I do realize what a genuine Christian is. I it know it very, very well. I remember my old life compared to my new, transformed life in Christ. I couldn't keep the law to save my life before being born again. Now, because I have faith and am born anew, I uphold the law as a way of life, and more and more as I grow up into Christ. And in the times when I do fail I have the blood of Christ continually cleansing me and keeping me righteous before the Father. That's why I do not want to go back to unbelief and a lifestyle of willfully sinning. I don't want to give up the cleansing forgiveness of God that I have through faith in Christ.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Old Testament and the Law are Supreme when it comes to guidance in this lifetime......This “Guide” ultimately was intended to lead people to the Savior, Jesus Christ because it has to be kept perfectly to be an instrument for one’s Salvation—
I get your point, but actually, as long as you did not commit an offense that could not be atoned for through the Levitical priesthood (beastiality, kidnapping, adultery, homosexuality, sorcery, etc.) and you observed the laws of sacrifice correctly, your sins that could be forgiven were in fact forgiven and atoned for under that system. So, technically, you did not have to be morally perfect according to the law to be saved before Christ.

38 ...through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. Acts 13:38-39


It's just that most of us have committed acts that only the blood of Christ can atone for. But the Bible does speak of righteous people during the time of the law. I would not have been one of them if I lived during that time, lol.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Once you have received Christ and His Grace to Save you, you have something better now to be your Instruction Manual.....it’s called the Holy Spirit.Once you are Born Again, with that Spirit Inside Of you, you will “ Find Yourself” Doing the things that please God .....
Yes, the way of the Spirit is better than the old way of the letter. The law was written outside of a person in the old covenant. The law is written on the heart, by the Holy Spirit, in this new covenant. The mode of communication has changed. That's the glory of the new covenant. The new covenant is a new way of communicating God's will to his people. But the church thinks the message being communicated is what is new in this new covenant. That's true in regard to how to approach God in covenant worship (through Christ's ministry now, not the Levites). But not true in regard to the righteousness the people of God are to walk in as believers in the promise. The new covenant is a new way to communicate the righteousness of God to his people and impress it upon them. The message of righteous living is essentially the same for both covenant. No wiggle room on the matter of divorce, though, in this covenant.
 
Last edited:

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Law could only concentrate on the “ outside of the cup”.....
That's simply not true. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for obeying the outside of the cup stuff to the letter of the law but not obeying the inside of the cup stuff of the law. Many Christians think the law had no laws concerning the inside of the cup stuff. That's just not true. There are laws about hatred, covetousness, greed, mercy, unforgiveness, and love in the law. The hypocritical, supposedly law keeping Pharisees are the ones who didn't concentrate on those, not the law.

As believers in the promise, we are to uphold those inside of the cup laws through our faith. If we don't, we may be just as lost as the Pharisees were, while we take false comfort in our outside of the cup obedience just as the Pharisees did. Our lack of obedience to the inside of the cup laws being the evidence of that lostness.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the Holy Spirit can “ TRANSFORM” the “ INSIDE of the cup”, and that is what counts with God .
That is what counts with God. But he also said to not neglect the outside of the cup stuff. Just don't take false comfort in your outside of the cup stuff while you fail miserably at the inside of the cup stuff. When you can see the inside of the cup stuff on the outside (make the inside clean and the outside will be clean too) then you know that you really do have faith in God and are saved, born again and ready to meet Christ when he comes back. That's why the Bible tells us to be diligent to 'do' those inside of the cup things. So we can know that we really are saved and ready to meet Christ in judgment.
 
Last edited:

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
<<<Meaning, we have been INCLUDED in God's covenant with Abraham in a limited way only.>>>

If we have been included in God’s covenant, then we are in covenant. In your view perhaps it is limited. But in my view it is not at all limited, for the Christians are Christ’s and are in Christ, the Seed to whom the promises were made.

Tong
R1932
If it is not limited, why are the deaf, blind, etc, still among us.

Why does Paul say we know, prophecy etc in part, then it will be done away?

Why does he say we only see through a dark glass?

Is this the best that God can do now, or will Jesus' return heal everyone and end the partial gifts?
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have to TRUST God to do the work and not yourself.....You put your Eternal Soul into the Hands Of Jesus and Him only—- THAT is Saving Faith......
And you know for sure that you have that faith by if your whole cup is clean, inside and out. The deceitfulness of the cup that is only clean on the outside is it's not really clean on the outside. We just think it is. That's what Jesus was pointing out to the Pharisees. They were hypocrites. By their own narrow view of obedience they were perfect and righteous in their own eyes. But when Jesus pointed out to them all the laws they did not keep he exposed their light as being darkness, and their cleanness as filth. He showed them they were weak whitewashed walls built on shifting sand, not fortified houses built on the Rock. His warning to the Pharisees applies to us today. Outside of the cup stuff isn't how you know you are built on the Rock and ready to face the coming storm of judgment.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
50 Commands of Christ - Summary List
1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 8:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49


50 Commands of Jesus - Practical Bible study - 15 lessons - What they mean today
The point was Jesus' commands aren't necessarily harder commands than what the law required (I think your list leaves out some of what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount). Many think Jesus was ramping up the righteous requirements of God in the sermon of the mount. To an extent he was (i.e. divorce), but what he was doing was pointing out the matters of the law that were being ignored by the Pharisees, not necessarily making new ones. He was pointing out the hypocrisy of these supposedly obedient Pharisees. And us 'outside of the cup' people in this new covenant can learn from Jesus' lesson to them too.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He was pointing out the hypocrisy of these supposedly obedient Pharisees. And us 'outside of the cup' people in this new covenant can learn from Jesus' lesson to them too.
And here's a good example...
This Sunday morning many of us will bring the sacrifice of our praise and worship, and our tithes and offerings, and our church attendance to God. But they will be unacceptable to Him unless we are first at peace with our 'enemy'.

23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
We'll take great comfort out of our outside of the cup things, despite our friction and fighting with others, but God says He does not accept our sacrifices because they are defiled and mean nothing to Him if we do not first address the issues concerning the inside of the cup. If the 'bowl' in which the sacrifice is made is defiled, so then is the sacrifice defiled and unacceptable to God.
 
Last edited:

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The point was Jesus' commands aren't necessarily harder commands than what the law required (I think your list leaves out some of what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount). Many think Jesus was ramping up the righteous requirements of God in the sermon of the mount. To an extent he was (i.e. divorce), but what he was doing was pointing out the matters of the law that were being ignored by the Pharisees, not necessarily making new ones. He was pointing out the hypocrisy of these supposedly obedient Pharisees. And us 'outside of the cup' people in this new covenant can learn from Jesus' lesson to them too.

The Old Testament commandments are about what we must not do, very negative, whereas the New Testament commandments are about how we should be towards others.

Try being nice to someone you don't like. That is much harder to do.

You said the other day about the hostility towards homosexuals. How about those same people adopt the New Testament way and show love and understanding instead. The Christian way is much, much harder, and it is totally foreign to their nature. It is beyond their comprehension, but they are the servants of another. Let us serve Christ.

By the way, I do not like this constant harping back to the Old Testament, it makes me wonder about peoples sincerity and commitment towards Christianity. That dispensation is over and gone, the same as the temple was destroyed and the veil of the temple rent in two.

Recently in the UK we changed our banknotes. The old ones are worthless now. Would you like to be paid with the old banknotes or the new ones?

For crying out loud, WHAT HAS THE OLD TESTAMENT GOT TO OFFER.
.
 
Last edited: