The REAL Baptism in Acts 2

FHII · Feb 27, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Well don't get all excited! LoL.

I could respond, but it's not that big a deal. Maybe we can cover this more next time around or something.

God bless, and very glad to see you back on the forum again.

Peace,
- H

Well thanks. Glad to be back. Sorry for getting so excited. Let me know when you are ready to respond.

Enoch111 · Feb 27, 2021

DNB said:
My mistake, I implied on my first response to you, that you gathered that Jesus unequivocally promoted water baptism from implied or figurative passages. But, after further thought, and sorry if I'm still mistaken, there is a literal and explicit verse where Jesus does condone water baptism.

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between "condone" and "command". But since you do not believe that Jesus is God, you will never understand what is being discussed.

Firstly John the Baptist taught that it is Christ Himself who would baptize WITH the Holy Ghost. John's baptism was temporary and limited to Israel, and it was to prepare the Jews to receive Christ as Messiah, Lord, and Savior.

But the baptism with the Holy Ghost was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when God and Christ poured out the Holy Spirit as a result of the finished work of Christ. The apostles and disciples of Christ were baptized with the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, and spoke in about 15 foreign languages supernaturally. They even had tongues of supernatural fire on their heads while in the upper room.

The foreigners in Jerusalem all heard their own languages spoken by these Galileans. Some were amazed and others mocked. Then Peter preached the Gospel to thousands of Jews gathered in Jerusalem from all over the Roman empire. Out of those thousands, about 3,000 repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. The moment they did that they received the GIFT of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). Immediately after that all 3,000 were baptized according to the COMMANDMENT of Christ (Acts 2:41; Mt 28:19; Mk 16:16).

The order of the two baptisms is clearly shown in Acts 10, where Gentiles believed the Gospel, and immediately received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Since believing Jews were present with Peter at that time, God caused these Gentiles to also speak in tongues, so that there would be no question about their having received the Spirit. But the matter did not end there. Peter then COMMANDED these Gentiles to be baptized by immersion as that is Christian baptism. This makes it crystal clear that Spirit baptism comes first, and is then followed by water baptism.

Now you have asked what the significance of water baptism is, and that is also revealed in Scripture:

1. Firstly, it is the first step of obedience to Christ for the one who has been converted. Thus the sanctification of the believer begins as soon as he or she is baptized. Those who remain unbaptized are not fully submitted to Christ.

2. Also Christians make a public profession of their faith in Christ when they are baptized. And this is illustrated by the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 7.
But this is still the case. Thus (let's say) a murderer repents and receives Christ as Lord and Savior. When he is baptized, he is telling the world that his has repented and died to his old sinful and wicked ways, and he is now a new creature in Christ.

Therefore he is publicly identified with Christ, which also means that if he lives in a country that is opposed to Christians, he will be immediately persecuted (and even killed). This is true in countries like India and Pakistan. Thus it becomes a proof of genuine faith in Christ, which could also mean that the unconverted families disown this Christian.

3. Paul tells us in Romans 6 as to what the spiritual significance of water baptism is. The believer is "raised" out the water to walk in newness of life, after being buried in the likeness of Christ's death and burial.

4. Thus he is fully identifying himself with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, which means that this person is one with Christ. He is in Christ (or in the Body of Christ since the Holy Spirit baptized him into the Body at the same time) and Christ is dwelling in him. So water baptism symbolizes the death of "the old man" when the convert goes under water, and also symbolizes the resurrection of "the new man" who is now in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit, and empowered to walk in the Spirit.

5. It should be noted that because of this significance, there was absolutely no gap or delay between believing and being baptized. This is illustrated in Acts 16 (and throughout the book of Acts), where Paul baptized the Philippian jailer and his whole family AT MIDNIGHT after they had heard the Gospel and believed. It would be rare today for anyone to be baptized at midnight, but this is how strongly Paul and Silas felt about this matter.

6. In spite of all this, people began to believe in baptismal regeneration, and therefore began to have babies and infants baptized. But water baptism is meaningless without conversion, and since infants and young children cannot possibly comprehend the Gospel, God does not expect them to be baptized either.

7. It was Justin Martyr in the 2nd century who introduced the idea of baptismal regeneration, but since regeneration is internal and supernatural, that is a total fallacy. But this is the fallacy promoted by the Catholic Church (as well as a few fringe churches).

DNB · Feb 27, 2021

Enoch111 said:
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between "condone" and "command". But since you do not believe that Jesus is God, you will never understand what is being discussed.

Firstly John the Baptist taught that it is Christ Himself who would baptize WITH the Holy Ghost. John's baptism was temporary and limited to Israel, and it was to prepare the Jews to receive Christ as Messiah, Lord, and Savior.

But the baptism with the Holy Ghost was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when God and Christ poured out the Holy Spirit as a result of the finished work of Christ. The apostles and disciples of Christ were baptized with the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, and spoke in about 15 foreign languages supernaturally. They even had tongues of supernatural fire on their heads while in the upper room.

The foreigners in Jerusalem all heard their own languages spoken by these Galileans. Some were amazed and others mocked. Then Peter preached the Gospel to thousands of Jews gathered in Jerusalem from all over the Roman empire. Out of those thousands, about 3,000 repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. The moment they did that they received the GIFT of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). Immediately after that all 3,000 were baptized according to the COMMANDMENT of Christ (Acts 2:41; Mt 28:19; Mk 16:16).

The order of the two baptisms is clearly shown in Acts 10, where Gentiles believed the Gospel, and immediately received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Since believing Jews were present with Peter at that time, God caused these Gentiles to also speak in tongues, so that there would be no question about their having received the Spirit. But the matter did not end there. Peter then COMMANDED these Gentiles to be baptized by immersion as that is Christian baptism. This makes it crystal clear that Spirit baptism comes first, and is then followed by water baptism.

Now you have asked what the significance of water baptism is, and that is also revealed in Scripture:

1. Firstly, it is the first step of obedience to Christ for the one who has been converted. Thus the sanctification of the believer begins as soon as he or she is baptized. Those who remain unbaptized are not fully submitted to Christ.

2. Also Christians make a public profession of their faith in Christ when they are baptized. And this is illustrated by the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 7.
But this is still the case. Thus (let's say) a murderer repents and receives Christ as Lord and Savior. When he is baptized, he is telling the world that his has repented and died to his old sinful and wicked ways, and he is now a new creature in Christ.

Therefore he is publicly identified with Christ, which also means that if he lives in a country that is opposed to Christians, he will be immediately persecuted (and even killed). This is true in countries like India and Pakistan. Thus it becomes a proof of genuine faith in Christ, which could also mean that the unconverted families disown this Christian.

3. Paul tells us in Romans 6 as to what the spiritual significance of water baptism is. The believer is "raised" out the water to walk in newness of life, after being buried in the likeness of Christ's death and burial.

4. Thus he is fully identifying himself with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, which means that this person is one with Christ. He is in Christ (or in the Body of Christ since the Holy Spirit baptized him into the Body at the same time) and Christ is dwelling in him. So water baptism symbolizes the death of "the old man" when the convert goes under water, and also symbolizes the resurrection of "the new man" who is now in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit, and empowered to walk in the Spirit.

5. It should be noted that because of this significance, there was absolutely no gap or delay between believing and being baptized. This is illustrated in Acts 16 (and throughout the book of Acts), where Paul baptized the Philippian jailer and his whole family AT MIDNIGHT after they had heard the Gospel and believed. It would be rare today for anyone to be baptized at midnight, but this is how strongly Paul and Silas felt about this matter.

6. In spite of all this, people began to believe in baptismal regeneration, and therefore began to have babies and infants baptized. But water baptism is meaningless without conversion, and since infants and young children cannot possibly comprehend the Gospel, God does not expect them to be baptized either.

7. It was Justin Martyr in the 2nd century who introduced the idea of baptismal regeneration, but since regeneration is internal and supernatural, that is a total fallacy. But this is the fallacy promoted by the Catholic Church (as well as a few fringe churches).

Well, thank you immensely for the very well thought out exposition on the process and dynamics of Salvation. Yes, just Salvation at this point, because in my mind, you hypothesized on the spiritualism of water baptism. Yes, there are two passages that, after the Day of Pentecost, which explicitly state water Baptism occurred upon repentance of the convert. Outside of that, we are all aware of the different types of Baptisms, i.e. Water, in the name of Jesus, Fire/Holy Spirit. So exactly where Jesus commanded one to be Baptized with water, is not Biblical, this is to assume that the word Baptize has that connotation, ...it doesn't, when there are other viable options as stated previously. (Matthew 28:19-20).

The 3,000 converts in Acts 2:41-42, when stating that they were Baptized, again, does not necessitate a water Baptism, but rather, a baptism into the faith of Christ. For, we even question the facility of baptizing 3,000 men, and thus, the interpretation, and the necessity. Even in the story of Apollos, it claims that he knew of the baptism of John, but that it required Aquila and Priscilla to give him a more substantial understanding of the Gospel. Implying therefore, that the baptism of John was not sufficient, or thorough enough. Not to mention Acts 19:2-5, where Paul also delineates the two Baptisms, John/water and Jesus/Holy Spirit, and the superiority of the latter over the other.

So, ultimately, my point is, I believe that you equated baptism with water baptism, when you were not justified to do so when, again, there are clearly and undeniably, other options. And, everywhere that you attempted to explain the efficacy of water baptism, you did not base your argument on the intrinsic potency of being immersed or sprinkled with water. But, rather, you made your case subjective to the reaction of the recipient. In other words, such a disposition as you described, can be elicited by any external impetus, namely, just hearing the Gospel, or hearing any facet of Christian theology.

So what may have occurred here, in your exposition on the matter, is that your belief in implausible and mystical notions, as in the deity of Jesus, has lead you to extrapolate from the verses that you quoted, intangible and hypothetical conclusions about an external and corporeal act, that as a mechanical process, is an enmity with the growth and edification of the spirit. To the point that, one can even be feigned, whereas the other cannot. Unfortunately, this is what occurs when one accepts the unfathomable (trinity) as an orthodox tenet of Christianity - it leads them into other untenable and fallacious conclusions. ...yes, I couldn't help but making this into a trinity issue, which I meant every single word all the same, after you made your initial comment about it.

marksman · Feb 28, 2021

Enoch111 said:
That is AN UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTION. Kindly see Acts 10.

Acts 2 v 38. And Peter said to them,
1. Repent
2. and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will
3. receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Unwarranted assumption. If that is what it is then all of scripture is an unwarranted assuption.

marksman · Feb 28, 2021

DNB said:
Yes, a spiritual confession, and not a regimented and superfluous act of dousing one's physical body with water.

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marksman · Feb 28, 2021

FHII said:
Well no... Water baptism didn't come first. That was one of the points of my post. I took it step by step and verse by verse to make that point.

Furthermore I am not convinced anyone was baptized by water in the upper room.

I agree and I did not explain it very well. Repentance came first, baptism came second and the filling of the Holy Spirit came third.

And I do not remember anyone saying that anyone was batised in the upper room.

Behold · Feb 28, 2021

FHII said:
There was a baptism in verse 41, but it was not the initial baptism in that chapter. To boot, I have my doubts that it was even done with water (but it could have been).

I've been in the "upper room".

The 120 were not water baptized in the upper room., nor was Peter.
They were in it, and SUDDENLY .... the Holy Spirit filled them...

He , the Holy Spirit, didnt wait for them to be water baptized first...
Reader, Make sure you SEE this and take it to heart, or some deceived water cult religious person will try to make you think that water is your "regeneration".

After THAT.......Peter, told the Jews (in their own (sect) Language).)(gift of Tongues)... in verses 34-37.......>that they had killed their Messiah.
They responded : "what shall we do"..

And here is where you have to know a little Theology, and a bit about the CROSS..... and this verse...>"as many as BELIEVE in Jesus, God gave to them the POWER to become the SONS of God".

So, see that "power to become"? That is not the city water supply, reader.
That is the HOLY SPIRIT, causing the NEW BIRTH, that results in a NEW CREATION, = born again.......that is the "power".
Not water.

Now notice this word....>"repent".

See that word? That is what Peter told that 3000 to do... = "repent"..
That does not mean "repent of sin".......as if that is all they did, then they are still not born again.
So, the CONTEXT of that "repent" follows....> Your unbelief killed your Messiah.
See, they nailed Christ to the Tree because of UNBELIEF....... they did not BELIEVE.
So, In the NEW TESTAMENT Salvation offer, that Peter is giving them.....>they dont need to get wet and repent of sin, they need to get RIGHT in their HEART= by repenting of their UNBELIEF that is why they killed their MESSIAH.
See that?
That is now you REPENT, and are born again. You repent of NOT BELIEVING in JESUS, and you BEGIN TO HAVE FAITH In Jesus that God accepts to Save YOU.
That is "repenting", in Acts 2:38.
That is "repenting" in the New Testament, in the "time of the Gentiles".

So, this 3000 REPENTED of their UNBELIEF.....and God accepted their FAITH to save them all.

"Grace through Faith" not water
"Justification BY Fatih". not by water.
"faith is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".
"Abraham BELIEVED GOD.....(no water), and his FAITH was counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS.
"All that call upon the name of the Lord (no water).= SHALL BE SAVED".

To be SAVED, is to be BORN AGAIN by the "power", or the SPIRIT of GOD.
No water required, as no water can do that for you.

Taken · Feb 28, 2021

Enoch111 said:
The proper way to understand the two baptisms is to see that FIRST there must be a baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost), and immediately after that there must be Christian baptism by immersion. Both are equally important, since water baptism is a commandment of Christ.

At the same time we should be perfectly clear that water baptism does not regenerate anyone, since regeneration is supernatural and internal, and only the Holy Spirit can regenerate a sinner.

Agree- Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is a Spiritual Gift from God, occurs by Gods Spiritual ACT, and (since the time of Jesus' teaching of the New Covenant)
is given and received Before a Water immersion Baptism.

Somewhat disagree- A Water Baptism IS necessary or required; (for the Souls Salvation)
After receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

A Water Baptism is: a "requirement" of manmade Churches; to Become a "Member" of "that" manmade Church.
* That "Water Baptism" is recorded in the records of "that manmade Church, by men".
* A man may choose to relinquish his membership to that Church, go to another Church, and prove his Water Baptism, BY Letter sent from the original Church to the new Church, and the man is thereafter, accounted "as" a member of the new Church he has chosen. (Negating the need to be "re-water Baptized).

Water Baptism has become a "tradition of manmade Churches", to BE Water Baptized, in a manmade Church, before witnesses of men, as a record of testimony that man "HAS RECEIVED Baptism of the Holy Spirit".

By a man being "a manmade Church Member", Other men in the Church, in the Community; can thereafter "KNOW"...
HOW TO TREAT, that individual.

TREAT that person "as a Brother/Sister IN Christ" ?
TREAT that person "as one who can be behaviorally, or Spiritually challenged in discussion or corrected" ?

Its NOT about, (mocking, bullying, arguing, etc.)

It IS ABOUT, knowing HOW to engage conversation with another person, BY KNOWING...IF they ARE "still" in a beginning stage, LEARNING ABOUT GOD....OR IF....they have "surpassed" the LEARNING ABOUT "stage"...TO KNOWING GOD.

On this OPEN FORUM, there is alot of disagreements; (debates ABOUT the "understanding of the Word of God") but LITTLE; of understanding, OF is one SPEAKING to a BROTHER "IN" Christ...
WHO KNOWS CHRIST?
Or one WHO is "still in the beginning phase",
Of LEARNING ABOUT CHRIST the Lord and GOD?

IMO ^ that is a "condunrum", and "bottomline basis", for many "Debates" / "Disagreements" on an Open Forum, such as this.

To the Point- I disagree, Water Baptism is a "necessary" or "required" Act, (at any point in time); to receive or have or keep;
the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

CASE in Point -
At no time, does Scripture reveal...
1) All of Jesus' chosen Disciples were "Water Baptized".
2) The "saved" Thief hanging next to Jesus, was NOT "Water Baptized".

Water Baptism WAS a prelude - an introduction of WHAT was to COME.
Just as the "WATER FLOOD" of the Earth WAS a prelude - introduction of WHAT is to COME upon the EARTH...
Washing First, as men WASHED their Flesh, before entering the House of God,
and the FIRE purification. (Gods supernatural ACT, IN men, and ON the Earth).

Glory to God,
Taken

Marymog · Feb 28, 2021

marks said:
According to Ephesians 4, there is ONE baptism. We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. Water baptism was a Jewish practice, not to mention some pagan religions, that was picked up by the early Christians.

Jewish baptism was about the gentiles converting to Judiasm, which was why the Pharisees were so offended being told to be baptized. The people who flocked to him to be baptized testifies to the spiritual emptiness of the religeous practice of the day.

If we are not baptized into Christ, we are none of His. To me this is the One Baptism. Baptized into Jesus, into His death, to share in His resurrection.

I find water baptism to be an example of a material observance of religion. I find spirit baptism to be the effectual means by which we are justified. One washes the body. One changes the person.

Much love!

Why was water baptism continued by the early Christians?

FHII · Feb 28, 2021

marksman said:
I agree and I did not explain it very well. Repentance came first, baptism came second and the filling of the Holy Spirit came third.

We still aren't in agreeance or understanding each other. I was saying baptism by the Holy Ghost came first. This came in Acts 2:4. You are looking at a different baptism which happened in verse 41.

The group that was baptized in verse 41 missed the first baptism. They mocked the Holy Spirit baptism. Peter preached to them and rebuked them and they had a change of heart.

amigo de christo · Feb 28, 2021

Marymog said:
Why was water baptism was continued by the early Christians?

CAUSE JESUS SAID TO DO IT . case closed .

amigo de christo · Feb 28, 2021

IF JESUS said to do we do , if he said not to do we do not do . case closed . lambs love every word of the KING .

amigo de christo · Feb 28, 2021

i rest my case on the words of the KING .

Eternally Grateful · Feb 28, 2021

marksman said:
Acts 2 v 38. And Peter said to them,
1. Repent
2. and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will
3. receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Unwarranted assumption. If that is what it is then all of scripture is an unwarranted assuption.

Actually in the Greek, this is wrong, it does not fit, using the rules of language

it would more apply be tranlated

Repent and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (a 2nd person plural phrase)

and let every one of you be baptized unto remission of sin (3rd person singular phrase)

We see in the following verses, Those who believed (repented) were baptized, because they recieved the gift of the spirit, ie, remission of sin.

Eternally Grateful · Feb 28, 2021

amigo de christo said:
CAUSE JESUS SAID TO DO IT . case closed .

Jesus said do a lot of things, not just get baptized, how many of them are required for salvation?

just asking so I can see where you are coming from

Eternally Grateful · Feb 28, 2021

Marymog said:
Why was water baptism was continued by the early Christians?

Jesus said go make disciples. Baptizing them

that’s why we still baptize new disciples today, it was commanded

Marymog · Feb 28, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Jesus said go make disciples. Baptizing them

that’s why we still baptize new disciples today, it was commanded

Hi EG,

Glad to see we can agree on something. Unfortunately some don't believe this!

FHII · Feb 28, 2021

amigo de christo said:
CAUSE JESUS SAID TO DO IT . case closed .

Amigo, yes he told the Apostles to baptize. I too believe we must be baptised. However, there is no indication that it must be with water. IN FACT, if you are speaking of Matthew 28:19 the very next baptism was with the Holy Ghost-- not with water.

Furthermore, if you are talking about Matthew 28:19, even that verse isn't talking about water baptism: its talking about baptism by teaching them.

Water baptism was done when the Apostles took over the ministry. Therefore, it is acceptable and should not be shunned. However, if you fail to realize that it isn't the only baptism and its not the most important one to be performed you are missing the weightier things.

amigo de christo · Feb 28, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Jesus said do a lot of things, not just get baptized, how many of them are required for salvation?

just asking so I can see where you are coming from

Lambs who are true lambs , are hearers and doers of the glorious sayings of our glorious LORD .
OH let all that has breath praise the glorious LORD .

amigo de christo · Feb 28, 2021

FHII said:
Amigo, yes he told the Apostles to baptize. I too believe we must be baptised. However, there is no indication that it must be with water. IN FACT, if you are speaking of Matthew 28:19 the very next baptism was with the Holy Ghost-- not with water.

Furthermore, if you are talking about Matthew 28:19, even that verse isn't talking about water baptism: its talking about baptism by teaching them.

Water baptism was done when the Apostles took over the ministry. Therefore, it is acceptable and should not be shunned. However, if you fail to realize that it isn't the only baptism and its not the most important one to be performed you are missing the weightier things.

OH i know about the true spiritual baptism . Yes indeed . HANDS UP and let the glorious LORD be praised .

The REAL Baptism in Acts 2

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