The Case Against the Trinity

soul said:

"Have not I the Lord, and there is no God else besides me? A just God and a Savior, there is none besides me" (Is. 45:21), yet Jesus is called "the great God and our Savior" (Tit. 2:13), in addition to "the Word" made flesh (Jn. 1:1), and "the Word was God" (Jn. 1:14), for He is God incarnate.

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Take a course in Biblical hermeneutics, learn the original language Greek, study more, pray for wisdom....

DNB said:

Oh, please allow me to repeat myself, 'as opposed to your utterly misguided and deluded opinion?'
kcnalp, news flash, your feeble, and at this point, inept, opinion is not on the equivalence of Scripture

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The Bible is "God breathed". Now you know.
John 1 The Word was God.

GINOLJC, to all, soul made an intresting point,

soul said:

So, in Gen. 1:26 the angels, not God, said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and the one God has not referred to Himself in singular and plural form in the Old and New Testament?

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First thanks for that reply, can we address this? the singular and plural forms of God. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
here, God is clearly saying that he, yes, he, (a single person), is a plurality of HIMSELF. what do you mean 101G, this is what I mean, in the very next verse, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
well now, God just went from a plurality of "US" and "OUR", to a singularity of "HIS", and "HE". but the Lord Jesus, backs up this singularity of "HIS", and "HE". when he was speaking with the Pharisees concerning divorcement, he said this, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," well the Lord Jesus, (GOD), cannot Lie, and in John 1:3, as to the one who made all things, including Man, it was Jesus who made made all things. so the question is, who was the Lord Jesus refering to in Matthew 19:4 when he the Lord Jesus himself said, "he", (GOD), made man male and female at Genesis 1:26, when in Fact it was him who made man, according to John 1:3. so DID God lie at Genesis 1:26 when he said, "US", and "OUR?", of course not. well ok, then did the Lord Jesus lie, when he said, "he", God, a single person made man male and female? of course not. so what gives?
THIS IS THE BILLION DOLLAR AND 33 CENT QUESTION FOR TODAY.
we suggest, to our christian friends to re-read this post carefully, and the corresponding scriptures carefully, Genesis 1:26 and 27, along with John 1:3, and Isaiah 44:24, and Matthres 19:4.

I will be out for a while today, but go over these scriptures, and later today we ALL can discuss them.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Wrangler said:

This has already been refuted multiple times. Elohim means heavenly beings, not just God.

In addition, it is silly trinitarians give equal weight to this one verse when God is referred to in the singular 5000 times

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ERROR, not true, no heavenly beings... in the plural created the heavens and the earth, and I challegen you to these facts.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Wrangler said:

God is not a heavenly being?

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are you sure? Jeremiah 23:23 & 24.
so my challegen still stand, how did God go from a US, and OUR in Genesis 1:26, to a HIS and HE in the very next verse? especially when God is identified as a H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') here in Genesis 1, when restrictively H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) is not used. ..... well? I would like to hear your answer WHY. looking to hear your reply.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

John 17:21 KJV
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“One in us”

What a statement.

in Gen 1 where man is created, the trins say the "us" is Most High 1 talking to Most High 2 and 3.

how do you guys know He is talking to His other selves and not talking to someone else?

this has always been the strangest one to me. without the doctrine i dont think anyone is gonna read this passage and think the Father is not just talking to Himself, but talking to His two other selves.

jaybird said:

in Gen 1 where man is created, the trins say the "us" is Most High 1 talking to Most High 2 and 3.

how do you guys know He is talking to His other selves and not talking to someone else?

this has always been the strangest one to me. without the doctrine i dont think anyone is gonna read this passage and think the Father is not just talking to Himself, but talking to His two other selves.

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jaybird, lets put an end to this, ok, listen, the very next verse, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
now if there was a #2 and a #3 Most High, that's nonsense, you know the Lord JESUS cannot lie? .... right, listen to what JESUS said concering who made man male and female..... listen, while talking to some Pharisees he said this, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"
he the Spirit, "GOD", was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", at Genesis , as a matter of fact throughout the OT.
so, do you believe JESUS?

now, the billion dollar question is, "who was God talking to?" answer, to his coming "SELF "shared in flesh, God manifested in his, his, his, own IMAGE.... man that he made. he was "expressing his own mind, other words, God was speaking prophetic of himself to come in flesh, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

so God the Ordinal First, JESUS, LORD, was speaking prophetic of himself to come in flesh. not having a conference call with anyone else. no, notta, zulch, no one else.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

soul said:

It is said God created man. Who else other than Him would the words "our" and "us" refer to?

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no one said anyone else created this world.
the Father uses agents all the time, they dont act on their own, the Father is always the source of all power.

101G said:

jaybird, lets put an end to this, ok, listen, the very next verse, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
now if there was a #2 and a #3 Most High, that's nonsense, you know the Lord JESUS cannot lie? .... right, listen to what JESUS said concering who made man male and female..... listen, while talking to some Pharisees he said this, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"
he the Spirit, "GOD", was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", at Genesis , as a matter of fact throughout the OT.
so, do you believe JESUS?

now, the billion dollar question is, "who was God talking to?" answer, to his coming "SELF "shared in flesh, God manifested in his, his, his, own IMAGE.... man that he made. he was "expressing his own mind, other words, God was speaking prophetic of himself to come in flesh, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

so God the Ordinal First, JESUS, LORD, was speaking prophetic of himself to come in flesh. not having a conference call with anyone else. no, notta, zulch, no one else.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

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so you think the Father was talking to himself?
i dont think so, if this was true then the passage should stay consistent which it does not as it continues to say "He", not "they".
if it was they then i think you would have a point but its not the way He talks (only 2 times) and never does anyone refer to Him as "they".

Wrangler said:

You have greats stamina, doing laps on the same subject covered over and over and over again. Elohim, heavenly beings. That's who. In the alternative, God was speaking in the Royal 'we.'

The point is, trinitarians give no rational explanation as to why this verse should count more than the >5,000 times God is referred to in the singular.singular.

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Who do you think the Father is talking to? I think this is the divine council.