Is This the Beast?

quietthinker · Mar 2, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Well before the antichrist rises to power the following things must take place:

1. The gog magog invasion of Ez. 38-39 (not to be confused with teh one in REvelation 20)
2. Th eone world govt.
3. the ten rulers governing the world.
4. The antichrist rising to power militarily and politically going out to conquer three of the ten kings.

1....'Gog and Magog' are metaphor......these names are representative...the question is, of what?
2....One World Government is an attempt not a reality....'they shall not cleave one to another'
3....'Ten' rulers are metaphor just as 'ten toes' are
4.... Turning metaphor into literal confuses the matter..... One looses it's intent or in the very least hamstrings (limits) it. There ya go, another metaphor!

marks · Mar 2, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Yes he will, but I think it will be different, he will use finances and power to rule, which is different, your sec d one I have never heard of before, that’s an interesting take

One thing I think of concerning the rule of the beast, is the ferocity of the beast as described in Daniel. To me this suggests a strong military rule. Of course we know the economic impetus to take the mark of the beast.

Much love!

Eternally Grateful · Mar 2, 2021

marks said:
One thing I think of concerning the rule of the beast, is the ferocity of the beast as described in Daniel. To me this suggests a strong military rule. Of coure we know the economic impetus to take the mark of the beast.

Much love!

Well remember, it will be greater that rome in christs day, but then again it will also be a splintered kingdom,

what’s amazing is today we have probably three superpowers. (The US, China And Russia). If europe would combine its forces its economy and its power, it would be even greater yet, the US is slowly dwindling itself away, and the more debt we make trying to buy votes and keep other countries happy, the worse we will be, when the US dollar crashes, it’s gonna be a hard fall. Which will be felt worldwide, I wonder myself if this is not the event which causes the future prince to rise to power promising peace and safety

Hidden In Him · Mar 2, 2021

Jay Ross said:
Your POV with respect to this present time is, IMHO, correct with respect to the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12, and if we consider that the Little Horn will have influence over the fourth beast and it is the Little Horn that speaks pompous word about God.

In Daniel 8 it is the Little Horn that is given an army to trample the Sanctuary of God in Jerusalem and God's earthly Hosts for a period of 2,300 years. and the time of this trampling began when Jewish Scholars, around 250 BC began translating their Holy Books in the Greek language. Around 100 years later one of the four segments of the Greek Empire entered the temple to deface it and we have what we understand to be the Maccabee Revolt.

Around 100 years later the Roman Empire's army was under the influence of the Little Horn and Rome began trampling Jerusalem and God's Earthly Hosts and in 70 AD it resulted in the Temple being destroyed and many Jews being killed and captured to be sold into slavery to all the nations of the earth. In effect, this was the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children which is to last for a little over 2,000 years and it will end in around 25 years time when the kings of the earth will be gathered together at Armageddon where they will be Judged, at the same time that the wicked fallen heavenly hosts are judged with no place for them to be found in heaven, and they, the judged heavenly hosts, will be gathered together with the judged kings of the earth and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment. Isa 24:21-22. In the book of Revelation we are told that after one thousand years of being locked up in the Bottomless pit, that the pit will be unlocked and the kings of the earth will rise up out of the pit first, to be then followed by the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 to then have dominion over all of the people of the earth and these four beasts will be seen as a single entity. This combined beast will speak out blaspheme against God and by the encouragement of the Little Horn, now called the false prophet, the people will begin to worship the beast.

Greetings, Jay. This sounds a bit more Historicist than I can go with, but I appreciate you sharing just the same.

God bless,
- H

Jay Ross · Mar 2, 2021

marks said:
That's the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

How

Dare

You!

You OBVIOUSLY don't know the first thing about me.

How dare you!

Marks, we have been interacting for many years now, firstly, on a very different forum, and now this forum, and from my observations of you over this time period, we both know each other very well and where we are coming from.

Mark, you are becoming very angry at me for calling you out for your understanding of the End Time Scriptures which plainly sets out when and how the End times will unfold.

Shalom

Eternally Grateful said:
Once again, where do you see this? Are you saying you think the USA is Babylon? Babylon is the pagan institution which started at the Tower of Babel and saw its greatest power in the Roman Empire is still is alive today, the USA is just a country, and the world from my view hates the United States, they certainly will not cry when she is destroyed,

me personally I believe north and South America is the 1/3 destroyed by fire from heaven, and the US is taken out of the picture, restoring the world to the way it was. That’s why she is not mentioned

No I am not saying that the USA is Babylon, but what I am saying can be found in Jeremiah 50-51. But it requires an open mind to be able to discern the players in the prophecy concerning the Land of Babylon during this present time and who has invaded her and their intent when they did, contrary to God's desire for the Land of Babylon.

My understanding could be said to be based on a plain/literal reading of these chapters.

Shalom

marks · Mar 2, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Well remember, it will be greater that rome in christs day, but then again it will also be a splintered kingdom,

what’s amazing is today we have probably three superpowers. (The US, China And Russia). If europe would combine its forces its economy and its power, it would be even greater yet, the US is slowly dwindling itself away, and the more debt we make trying to buy votes and keep other countries happy, the worse we will be, when the US dollar crashes, it’s gonna be a hard fall. Which will be felt worldwide, I wonder myself if this is not the event which causes the future prince to rise to power promising peace and safety

Personally, I think that the US has been used to prevent Iran and the rest, Gog and Magog, from launching it's attack on Israel. I think that the demise of the US will have a worldwide impact, but I see that as secondary, at best.

That when the US is removed as protector of Israel, Gog and Magog will attack. I think during that attack will come a worldwide earthquake, with more devastation following quickly. That this will be the sudden destruction, and then begins the 70th week.

Much love!

Jay Ross · Mar 2, 2021

marks said:
And if you didn't, why would you write the way you do?

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

. . . . .

Do you have any idea what an offence that is to me? Say whatever you want about me, my character, my whatever, but what gives you the right to denigrate my view of God's Word?

?

Mark, is your view of God's world or what you want God's world to be?

marks · Mar 2, 2021

Galatians 5:22-23
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Jay Ross · Mar 2, 2021

marks said:
I'm calling you out for your uninformed and offensive statements, that have no appropriate place in a public forum.

Look at what you wrote right here. Is this at all what I said? No it is not.

It was nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It was to do with your appallingly inappropriate and incorrect comment that I have a low opinion of the Bible.

You can paint it differently, and here's another question . . . how honest is that?

You've denigrated my opinion of God's Word. I object to that.

Plain and simple.

So be it marks.

Jay Ross · Mar 2, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Greetings, Jay. This sounds a bit more Historicist than I can go with, but I appreciate you sharing just the same.

God bless,
- H

Thanks for your encouragement.

Would you like to expand on why you find that my outline of the end times is a bit more than you can go with?

Thanks

Shalom

Eternally Grateful · Mar 3, 2021

Jay Ross said:
No I am not saying that the USA is Babylon, but what I am saying can be found in Jeremiah 50-51. But it requires an open mind to be able to discern the players in the prophecy concerning the Land of Babylon during this present time and who has invaded her and their intent when they did, contrary to God's desire for the Land of Babylon.

My understanding could be said to be based on a plain/literal reading of these chapters.

Shalom

Again, Can you please try to explain what you mean? I read what you are saying, but I can not grasp a thing you are trying to say about the USA and Jeremiah 50 - 51. Can you please be more detailed?

Again, I take Babylon as literal. When John wrote of Babylon. WHo would he have seen as Babylon in his day. That in my view is where we should look. But I am open if you can be more specific

Eternally Grateful · Mar 3, 2021

marks said:
Personally, I think that the US has been used to prevent Iran and the rest, Gog and Magog, from launching it's attack on Israel. I think that the demise of the US will have a worldwide impact, but I see that as secondary, at best.

That when the US is removed as protector of Israel, Gog and Magog will attack. I think during that attack will come a worldwide earthquake, with more devastation following quickly. That this will be the sudden destruction, and then begins the 70th week.

Much love!

Hey bro can you explain how you get this timeline? I have not heard this before.

Thank you

marks · Mar 3, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Hey bro can you explain how you get this timeline? I have not heard this before.

Thank you

I look at Ezekiel 38-39 and I see 2 engagments separated by 7 years. The first is a limited war, listing certain nations. The second is all the armies of the earth. Following the conclusion of hte 2nd war, Israel will be completely and permanently restored to the promised land.

Conclusions I draw from this are that the second coming of Jesus, at which time Israel is gathered, is at the conclusion of this 2nd war, and it's what we'd otherwise call Armaggedon. And 7 years before that is what we call Gog and Magog.

When Gog/Magog invade Israel,

Ezekiel 38:18-20
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12-14
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Ezekiel 38:22-23
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23) Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Revelation 8:7
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So then Gog/Magog invade Israel, an earthquake begins in Israel and spreads throughout the earth. The first Trumpet sounds soon after, the rain of fire and brimstone and blood that destroys the invading armies.

Personally my thinking is that during this earthquake, perhaps even causing it, will be the catching away of the church. "Earthquake Rapture", they call it.

Much love!

Eternally Grateful · Mar 3, 2021

marks said:
I look at Ezekiel 38-39 and I see 2 engagments separated by 7 years. The first is a limited war, listing certain nations. The second is all the armies of the earth. Following the conclusion of hte 2nd war, Israel will be completely and permanently restored to the promised land.

Conclusions I draw from this are that the second coming of Jesus, at which time Israel is gathered, is at the conclusion of this 2nd war, and it's what we'd otherwise call Armaggedon. And 7 years before that is what we call Gog and Magog.

When Gog/Magog invade Israel,

Ezekiel 38:18-20
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12-14
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Ezekiel 38:22-23
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23) Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Revelation 8:7
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So then Gog/Magog invade Israel, an earthquake begins in Israel and spreads throughout the earth. The first Trumpet sounds soon after, the rain of fire and brimstone and blood that destroys the invading armies.

Personally my thinking is that during this earthquake, perhaps even causing it, will be the catching away of the church. "Earthquake Rapture", they call it.

Much love!

I do believe these are two events. I am trying to figure out how you see one in the very beginning and one at the very end? I believe they are two battles. The first one will defeated by that great earthquake. And the second is Armageddon, Where Christ will return to earth.

I believe they both occur within the 3.5 year period where the earth is in turmoil.

marks · Mar 3, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
The first one will defeated by that great earthquake.

Here, where it says, I will plead against him, the idea is the judge pronouncing sentence:

Ezekiel 38:18-23
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21) And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23) Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eternally Grateful said:
I believe they both occur within the 3.5 year period where the earth is in turmoil.

Ezekiel 39:6-10
6) And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7) So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8) Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10) So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

After Jesus returns, everyone is gathered out of the earth into Israel, the Jews to inherit their homeland, and the gentiles to be separated sheep from goats. My thinking is that this 7 years is completed before Jesus returns.

Much love!

Eternally Grateful · Mar 3, 2021

marks said:
Here, where it says, I will plead against him, the idea is the judge pronouncing sentence:

Ezekiel 38:18-23
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21) And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23) Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 39:6-10
6) And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7) So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8) Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10) So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

After Jesus returns, everyone is gathered out of the earth into Israel, the Jews to inherit their homeland, and the gentiles to be separated sheep from goats. My thinking is that this 7 years is completed before Jesus returns.

Much love!

In my view everyone is gathered to Isreal at the end. Remember, in the beginning of the 7 years Israel is still in sin. After the abomination. Jesus tells them to run to the mountains. And in rev 13. we see Satan attemps to go to war with her but is prevented (to me this may be Gog? so Satan turns his anger to her offspring. that would be the gentile believers.. and hence we have satans part in the great tribulation

JohnDB · Mar 3, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
All I ask is don’t say your way is right and everyone else’s is wrong, that in my view would cause issue

if you want to discuss it, I have no problem, even if in the end we disagrees I have studied this for many decades (it is one of my favorite subjects) but even then, I do not think I have all the answers, if I ever get there, then I need to be humbled, because when it comes to prophetic events, I do not think we will really know until they happen, but we can know by looking if they have happened or not (prophecy would have to be 100% fulfilled to be considered fulfilled in my view)

sadly these types of discussions do not get very far because we have prideful people on both sides who think they know it all and do not know how to humbly discuss the issue with people they disagree with.

What I threw that out there for was to be considered and thought about.
Hey, It is exactly what had happened before. Could what happened before become true again?

What if the typology is different this time out...what if...
How could those types fit to what we see around us today?
What if the "Antichrist" was not exactly a single person?
What if the Mark of the Beast was actually an attitude?
What if the Beast was not exactly a nation that the Harlot Church rides?

I'm just throwing ideas out for consideration...they defy the "conventional wisdom" for sure...
And I do that because "Conventional Wisdom" had never gotten God right yet.

Ronald Nolette · Mar 3, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
I see it differently

Number 4 is the beast or the feet of iron and clay

the beast takes over the ten rulers as they give him power, it does not say they rule the world yet, it just says they are part of the 4th beast (rome)

the one world government is created by the beast.
The first one I would have to do research, but I believe even that is after, I will look it up and get back to you

The ten toes correspond to the ten horns of Daniels vision of the fourth beast! Th eleventh horn that uproots three is the antichrist

The one world govt comes first:

Daniel 7:23-25
King James Version

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Verse 23 the fourth beast devours the whole earth (one world govt.)
Verse 24 the ten rulers (horns) arise out of this kingdom- the one that devoured the whole earth.
Verse 24 the eleventh horn who subdue three of the ten kings
Verse 25 His domination is for 3 1/2 years.

Ronald Nolette · Mar 3, 2021

quietthinker said:
1....'Gog and Magog' are metaphor......these names are representative...the question is, of what?
2....One World Government is an attempt not a reality....'they shall not cleave one to another'
3....'Ten' rulers are metaphor just as 'ten toes' are
4.... Turning metaphor into literal confuses the matter..... One looses it's intent or in the very least hamstrings (limits) it. There ya go, another metaphor!

Well you can call them a metaphor- The Bible says they will happen!

Teh ten toes of iron and clay are the rulers who arise after the one world govt. and they fall under the conquest of the antichrist. The UN is an attempt at a 1 world govt! This thought has been around for a long time, but is held back until God says so!

Do some history work and you will find magog! Gog is a title for the ruler of magog (Russia) who had two princes Meshech and Tubsl- Do some research and you will find that these were two Russian capitols Moscow and Tobulsk. The etymology of the names verify that!

Turning biblical vision into reality doesn't confuse- what confuses is denying that these things have literal fulfilments on earth that confuses.

Jay Ross · Mar 3, 2021

Eternally Grateful said:
Hey bro can you explain how you get this timeline? I have not heard this before.

To fit this into the Biblical prophecies, the timeline for the End times must be modified to suit this theory of being taken out of the way when the going gets tough, and, after Satan is squashed, the "Raptured Saint will then return with the Lord to rule over the earth for 1,000 years.

Just like your bias for a Roman Empire solution, the End Times must be told in a certain way to fit the respective theories into the story line of what will happen.

I would be happy if a person could provide the evidence to support their theories, but what I find is that all of our theories fall over with respect to certain aspects of the end time prophecies.

We are all looking for the best fit for our theories, hopefully we can hold them lightly enough to be able to let go of them when the outcomes do not conform to our expectations.

Shalom

Is This the Beast?

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