Who founded your church?

theefaith said:

how about these

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

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That whole passage is about believing on Christ for salvation. There's no command to take communion in there. Try to read the Bible with context. It's really not that hard.

BreadOfLife said:

They were shaken to the core about what He was telling them. They could NOT handle the fact that this man - whom they ALL believed had been sent by God was telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

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Where does it say they all believed he was sent by God?
“Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill." Duh! They were just looking for more free food!

They believed he was sent by God? Not!
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

BreadOfLife said:

No explanation or clarification to the Apostles - as He ALWAYS did.

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Are your kidding?
"Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He did explain it, right here!
What's he saying?
To only eat and drink what he had mentioned, in a spiritual sense, is to gain eternal life.
If they just wanted to fill their flesh with bread, it would profit them nothing, but if they understood that he was talking about believing in him, that he was the atonement and the long-awaited Messiah.
He knew a lot of them were not going to get it. He knew a lot of them were just there for the show and the food and really did not want to believe he was the Messiah.

theefaith said:

eternal life is not salvation?

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what part of that passage not being about communion do you not understand? yes, it's about eternal life through believing.

Truther said:

Per repentance and faith, he does discriminate.

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Matt. 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

YOUR anti-children campaign is precisely what Jesys was rebuking His Apostles for.
Nice work, Einstein . . .

Jane_Doe22 said:

1) Don't equate exactly following Francis with following Christ.

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We don't. That's just another typical anti-Catholic non-sequitur. Pope Francis tells us to follow Christ. That's his job. He does it very well in many ways.

Renniks said:

Where does it say they all believed he was sent by God?
“Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill." Duh! They were just looking for more free food!

They believed he was sent by God? Not!
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

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Ummmm, first of all – they were His DISCIPLES – not just casual listeners.
These weren't the people who doubted Jesus - they FOLLOWED Him around.

He had just fed FIVE THOUSAND people with a couple of fish and five loaves of bread
John 6:14 tells us:
After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

After that - Verse 15 says that Jesus had to escape because they were worshipping Him and trying to make Him a king.
Verse 6:66 tells us that they “returned to the former way of life”.
"Former"?? What was their PRESENT way of life?? That of disciples of Jesus.

Even the DEMONS knew who he was . . .
Matt. 8:29
And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

There is MORE than enough evidence to show that the people in John 6 wwere believing disciples.

Renniks said:

Are your kidding?
"Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He did explain it, right here!
What's he saying?
To only eat and drink what he had mentioned, in a spiritual sense, is to gain eternal life.
If they just wanted to fill their flesh with bread, it would profit them nothing, but if they understood that he was talking about believing in him, that he was the atonement and the long-awaited Messiah.
He knew a lot of them were not going to get it. He knew a lot of them were just there for the show and the food and really did not want to believe he was the Messiah.

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You are SO blind.

Let's review this AGAIN:
John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

They were freaked out about what He was telling them. They could NOT handle the fact that He was telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood because THEY thought as YOU do - that they would have to consume his muscle and tissue. The verses YOU posted above PROVE my point that Jesus was telling them they they should think as GOD does and not like MEN do - like YOU do.
THAT'S why He said, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life."

He was NOT telling them that HIS flesh counts for nothing. On the contrary - it counts for EVERYTHING.
Our very salvation depends on wjhat happend to His flesh on the cross.

Good grief . . .

John 3:6 – Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

John 6:63 – Protestants often argue that Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where “spirit” means “symbolic.” As we have seen, the use of “spirit” relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

John 6:66-67 – many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn’t Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn’t Jesus say, “Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!”? Because they understood correctly.

Mark 4:34 – Jesus always explained to His disciples the real meanings of His teachings. He never would have let them go away with a false impression, most especially in regard to a question about eternal salvation.

John 6:37 – Jesus says He would not drive those away from Him. They understood Him correctly but would not believe.

John 3:5,11; Matt. 16:11-12 – here are some examples of Jesus correcting wrong impressions of His teaching. In the Eucharistic discourse, Jesus does not correct the scandalized disciples.
THE EUCHARIST - Scripture Catholic

BreadOfLife said:

Ummmm, first of all – they were His DISCIPLES – not just casual listeners.
These weren't the people who doubted Jesus - they FOLLOWED Him around.

He had just fed FIVE THOUSAND people with a couple of fish and five loaves of bread
John 6:14 tells us:
After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

After that - Verse 15 says that Jesus had to escape because they were worshipping Him and trying to make Him a king.
Verse 6:66 tells us that they “returned to the former way of life”.
"Former"?? What was their PRESENT way of life?? That of disciples of Jesus.

Even the DEMONS knew who he was . . .
Matt. 8:29
And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

There is MORE than enough evidence to show that the people in John 6 wwere believing disciples.

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Um..no there's zero evidence. Sure they thought he was someone special, but not the messiah!

After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

They wanted a king who could give them stuff. An earthly king, not a spiritual leader.

At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”


And you want to call them believers?

He says right in the text that most weren't Believers!

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

And they didn't.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
The others weren't really believers to start with.

theefaith said:

1 cor 1:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

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So you jump to another book? Try to keep up..

BreadOfLife said:

Our very salvation depends on wjhat happend to His flesh on the cross.

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Of course. As I already said, they were focused on the physical world and couldn't see he was talking spiritually, here. They wanted a saviour from Rome, not from sin. They wanted an earthly king. They thought he meant literally eating flesh, but he meant belief in him. Your church tries to do something similar, making the spiritual reality of redemption through his suffering a physical eating of his flesh. Although no one believes it's literally flesh.

theefaith said:

Same subject

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No it isn't, that's the point.

Renniks said:

Um..no there's zero evidence. Sure they thought he was someone special, but not the messiah!

After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

They wanted a king who could give them stuff. An earthly king, not a spiritual leader.

At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

And you want to call them believers?

He says right in the text that most weren't Believers!

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

And they didn't.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
The others weren't really believers to start with.

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WRONG.
You're missing the big picture here.

These weren't casual doubters or they wouldn't have had to return to their FORMER way of life (John 6:66). They were His FOLLOWERS, but, as I tried to explain to you - He went too far in their view. He went from performing miracles and multiplying food right before their eyes and feeding them - to telling them that they NOW had to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood. THIS is why they grumbled among themselves and eventually abandoned Him.

According to YOUR nonsensical logic - they NEVER believed in Him - but gave up their livelihoods to followed Him for SOME crazy reason, then left him when He told them they needed to "spiritually consume" what He was saying.

This is an idiotic premise that makes absolutely ZERO sense. WHY would they walk away from that?? There is nothing "bizarre" in telling them that this was all just "spiritual talk" and purely symbolic.

No, when you read the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 in CONTEXT - there is only ONE possibility:
It is that Jesus was speaking LITERALLY and the crowd freaked out and walked away.

YOUR rationalization of John 6 is too silly to take seriously.

Renniks said:

Of course. As I already said, they were focused on the physical world and couldn't see he was talking spiritually, here. They wanted a saviour from Rome, not from sin. They wanted an earthly king. They thought he meant literally eating flesh, but he meant belief in him. Your church tries to do something similar, making the spiritual reality of redemption through his suffering a physical eating of his flesh. Although no one believes it's literally flesh.

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NONE of what is written in John 6 even HINTS at the moronic idea that "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood" means "just believe in me".

There is absolutely NO REASON for the word "Trogon" to be used in these verses when talking about human eating - UNLESS Jesus is using hyperbole to make the point that he really means "EAT". WHY on earth would He use this verb for "believe".

Your argument is a house of cards that falls apart on linguistiuc grounds alone - not to mention the horrible logic and corresponding Scripture verses that support the Real Presense (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–30).

BreadOfLife said:

As I told you in my last post - try being honest - for a change.
I'm sure you have interesting things to talk about - if ONLY you could STOP lying.

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And you were going to explain your Jehovah's Witness doctrine that teaches that Water saved Noah.....which is water baptism by Immersion, when in fact, Noah and family never got into the water, but were told by God to stay in the Boat and OUT of the "immersion" that was killing every living thing on the earth.
So, show how water that never touched Noah is "water baptism" that you say saved Him.

Still waiting for that answer.
Start anytime you like, deceiver.