A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

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justbyfaith

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I think Jesus excuses those who do not grasp that He is equal with God.
Let me give you an amplified version:
"who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes - the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," Phil. 2:6
Many didn't grasp it then and still today don't. He'll explain it to them when they arrive.
That said, believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day does not neccessitate theological depth, otherwise a child could not innocently come forward and receive the Lord on a basic simple level of understanding. Really, how much did the average Christian understand back then? Just the basics I'd say. We have so many resourses that they did not have: Bibles for one _ in many versions and languages, study Bibles, many centuries of brilliant theologians laboring over these doctrines to give us hundreds of commentaries to examine, 24/7 sermons broadcast on TB and radio and oh_ the online laity of various denominations. We are so fortunate yet, still we see dimly and know in part. If we all had to pass a test to get into heaven, then it wouldn't be Grace through faith.
It is one thing to be ignorant of the doctrine of Christ's Deity and to not believe in it for that reason.

But for those who understand the doctrine and then reject it, I don't believe that they have any excuse...if they die in that state of unbelief, they will die in their sins.

Also, most people are told to read the gospel of John first thing when they become new Christians.

And they are not going to get very far into the book (about verse 14) before they come to the understanding that it is the biblical teaching that Jesus is God.

So, if they see that it is the biblical teaching and reject it, that is a heart issue that amounts to unbelief.

And since we are saved by grace through faith, unbelief on their part might be a condemning factor in their lives, don't you think?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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But for those who understand the doctrine and then reject it, I don't believe that they have any excuse...if they die in that state of unbelief, they will die in their sins
That is the point, they can't grasp it. Where in the Bible does it demand that we understand the depth and nature of God fully in order to be saved? The Jews since Abraham looked forward to the time when their Messiah/Savior would come and be King - none of them expected Him to be God in the flesh.
Also, most people are told to read the gospel of John first thing when they become new Christians.
Yes, that is the book that describes Christ's deity. I often share the list of statements which identify Him as God: "I am the way, the truth a d the life; I am the Bread of life; I am the Vine...; I am the resurrection ...; Before Abraham was, I AM; I am the Light of the World; etc. But then, one can read this and not understand and move on. Everyone of those statements are loaded, deep ... you can teach a whole sermon on one verse and still not quite reach the depth of it. The concept of God becoming man is not easy to grasp. So when we don't grasp it, we move on to things we can grasp. Believing in what Jesus did, being obedient to what He taught, following Him. I know, we expect all to see as we do, but shouldn't judge them if they don't. The Body of Christ, believe it or not, is made up of many denominations, Catholic, Protestant, non- denominational, (with probably 95% of them being Trinitarian), but then the rest who believe, follow and love Jesus are also included - don't you think?
Some churches are stagnant, they don't grow much, because they have false doctrine, but it is not all false. So the Holy Spirit does not grow those churches, but does that mean He discards them entirely? By their fruit , you will know them. I think anyone who is drawn to Christ and follows him cannot be part if Satan's plan. Satan devices false religions, philosphies, and cults to keep people away from Jesus, to hate, despise and reject Jesus and His followers.
We do not know what is in someone's heart. They could be a rare, but we would have to examine that individual, their lives, fruit of tue Spirit, etc.

So, if they see that it is the biblical teaching and reject it, that is a heart issue that amounts to unbelief.
If they tell you that they believe in Jesus, that He died for their sins and rose in the third day, is not that what Jesus requires? Are you going to start piling up more prerequisites/hoops to jump so you can pass a judgment on them? We are not supposed to say or imply who will be saved and who will not - we don't know. My father was an atheist until he surrender to His in his eighties - just before death. My 88 year old mother is filled with all kinds of her own spiritual smorgasbord. She thinks she can earn her way to heaven based in her kindness. She doesn't believe Jesus rise from the dead. If she died today with her beliefs - she would be judged and would forfeit her soul. Stubborn as she may be, there is still hope that she may see the light.
My brother is an atheist too. U always thought the only way they may be convinced is if they actually experienced the Great Tribulation that I have been warning about for 25 years. I know their hearts, I know them and still don't know for sure if God will enlighten them. I would rather they be non-Trinitarians than where they are now.


And since we are saved by grace through faith, unbelief on their part might be a condemning factor in their lives, don't you think?
You are implying they don't believe the gospel. They would tell you they do. If they believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day, they have faith. Some have weak faith and little knowledge and some have great faith and knowledge.
 

April_Rose

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I can't remember for sure whether or not I responded to this thread but I really didn't want or have time to read through the whole entire thing. I used to believe that God and Jesus were separate, but it didn't make me any less of a Christian. I was just confused by the trinity was all. I don't think being confused and lacking knowledge is a sin, it's just when you have the knowledge and refuse to listen to it and believe it is when it starts creating problems.
 
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Wrangler

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I can't remember for sure whether or not I responded to this thread but I really didn't want or have time to read through the whole entire thing. I used to believe that God and Jesus were separate, but it didn't make me any less of a Christian. I was just confused by the trinity was all. I don't think being confused and lacking knowledge is a sin, it's just when you have the knowledge and refuse to listen to it and believe it is when it starts creating problems.

Did you change your icon again?
 

Wrangler

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It is one thing to be ignorant of the doctrine of Christ's Deity and to not believe in it for that reason.

But for those who understand the doctrine and then reject it, I don't believe that they have any excuse...if they die in that state of unbelief, they will die in their sins.

Except nowhere in the Bible does it say this.

You already present a vague verse, which does not say what you claim it does. A golden nugget from today's reading; Jesus admitting he is not God.


40 But it isn’t for me to say who will sit at my right side and at my left. That is for God to decide.”
Mark 10:40 (CEV)
 

justbyfaith

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The Jews since Abraham looked forward to the time when their Messiah/Savior would come and be King - none of them expected Him to be God in the flesh.

Sure they did...it was prophesied that Messiah would be God in the flesh in one of their most famous verses (Isaiah 9:6).

Yes, that is the book that describes Christ's deity. I often share the list of statements which identify Him as God: "I am the way, the truth a d the life; I am the Bread of life; I am the Vine...; I am the resurrection ...; Before Abraham was, I AM; I am the Light of the World; etc. But then, one can read this and not understand and move on. Everyone of those statements are loaded, deep ... you can teach a whole sermon on one verse and still not quite reach the depth of it. The concept of God becoming man is not easy to grasp. So when we don't grasp it, we move on to things we can grasp.

John 1:1-3; John 1:14 is clear as day and easily graspable.

I know, we expect all to see as we do, but shouldn't judge them if they don't.

God will judge them if they don't; based on the word that He has spoken in John 8:24 (see John 12:48).

If they tell you that they believe in Jesus, that He died for their sins and rose in the third day, is not that what Jesus requires?

No; He requires also that you believe that He is the great I AM. Otherwise you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

You are implying they don't believe the gospel.

They don't...the fact that Jesus is God is an integral part of the gospel that we are to believe in...it is an essential for salvation (John 8:24).

Except nowhere in the Bible does it say this.

Sure it does...in John 8:24.

You already present a vague verse, which does not say what you claim it does.

It says exactly what I claim it does; you are in denial of the truth because of your predisposed bias against the Triune nature of God as a doctrine.

A golden nugget from today's reading; Jesus admitting he is not God.


40 But it isn’t for me to say who will sit at my right side and at my left. That is for God to decide.”
Mark 10:40 (CEV)

That is Jesus saying that He isn't the Father (the eternal Spirit who inhabits eternity as a Spirit without flesh).
 

Wrangler

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It says exactly what I claim it does

LOL. No. You just cannot actually present a verse that actually says what you claim. It's hilarious that you read into what is not there. But below, your ignore what is there.

That is Jesus saying that He isn't the Father

No. The text is God - in his unitarian nature, not 'the Father' will decide who sits next to Jesus, and not Jesus himself.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Sure they did...it was prophesied that Messiah would be God in the flesh in one of their most famous verses (Isaiah 9:6).



John 1:1-3; John 1:14 is clear as day and easily graspable.



God will judge them if they don't; based on the word that He has spoken in John 8:24 (see John 12:48).



No; He requires also that you believe that He is the great I AM. Otherwise you will die in your sins (John 8:24).



They don't...the fact that Jesus is God is an integral part of the gospel that we are to believe in...it is an essential for salvation (John 8:24).



Sure it does...in John 8:24.



It says exactly what I claim it does; you are in denial of the truth because of your predisposed bias against the Triune nature of God as a doctrine.



That is Jesus saying that He isn't the Father (the eternal Spirit who inhabits eternity as a Spirit without flesh).
I guess when Christ returns and He gives His angels the command to separate the sheep from the goats, He can count on you to remind him that all these non-trinitarians are really pretenders and to make sure that they get in line with the goats for the slaughter.
 
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justbyfaith

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I guess when Christ returns and He gives His angels the command to separate the sheep from the goats, He can count on you to remind him that all these non-trinitarians are really pretenders and to make sure that they get in line with the goats for the slaughter.
He won't need me to remind Him...It is intrinsic in His word (John 8:24).
 

justbyfaith

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LOL. No. You just cannot actually present a verse that actually says what you claim. It's hilarious that you read into what is not there. But below, your ignore what is there.

You are simply in denial of the fact that John 8:24 does in fact proclaim that if you do not believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins.

It is something called "cognitive dissonance".

No. The text is God - in his unitarian nature, not 'the Father' will decide who sits next to Jesus, and not Jesus himself.

Look at it in the kjv.

Mar 10:40, But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
 

Wrangler

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You are simply in denial of the fact that John 8:24 does in fact proclaim that if you do not believe that Jesus is the great I AM

You are reading what is not there. Not only is "I am" not a claim of divinity, Jesus never claimed to be 'the great I AM."

4 That’s why I told you that you will die here as a result of your sins. Unless you believe I am who I have said I am, your sins will lead to your death.
John 8:24 (VOICE)


Look at it in the kjv./QUOTE]

Don't look at other translations; only the vague one. The translation I used is too explicit for your theology. Jesus is not God for Jesus does not decide who sits next to him. And because there is overwhelming Biblical evidence that Jesus is not God is why there are Christians who deny Jesus is God in Flesh. Genesis does not start, "In the beginning, God, who is a 3 person God-head, one of which will incarnate, ...)

40 But it isn’t for me to say who will sit at my right side and at my left. That is for God to decide.”
Mark 10:40 (CEV)
 

Ronald David Bruno

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He won't need me to remind Him...It is intrinsic in His word (John 8:24).
Read the context of the scripture. Jesus was being I treated by the Pharisees. THEY did not believe that HE was the Messiah and Savior. They believed that there would be a Messiah, believed all the scriptures were pointing to a coming Messiah, they just didn't believe that Jesus was. They were expecting someone who would be King, not a suffering servant. And btw, nine if the OT prophets Jews expected that the Messiah/Savior would actually be God. They certainly did not have an inkling that the Messiah would be THEN, the God who took them out of Egypt and spoke to MOSES. The "I AM" in Ex. 3:14 was a mysterious i introduction that would only be fully revealed later in Jesus.
 
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justbyfaith

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You are reading what is not there. Not only is "I am" not a claim of divinity, Jesus never claimed to be 'the great I AM."

4 That’s why I told you that you will die here as a result of your sins. Unless you believe I am who I have said I am, your sins will lead to your death.
John 8:24 (VOICE)

If Jesus said that He was the Messiah then He was claiming to be God.

For Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse and it shows that the Messiah would be God.

But it is usually par for the course that when someone doesn't like what is written in the kjv, they heao for themselves a teacher in the translator of another version to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

Clearly, this is what is written.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Read the context of the scripture. Jesus was being I treated by the Pharisees. THEY did not believe that HE was the Messiah and Savior.

If they had believed that Jesus was the Messiah and Saviour, they would have also acknowledged His Deity.

For Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If Jesus said that He was the Messiah then He was claiming to be God.

For Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse and it shows that the Messiah would be God.

But it is usually par for the course that when someone doesn't like what is written in the kjv, they heao for themselves a teacher in the translator of another version to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

Clearly, this is what is written.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.



If they had believed that Jesus was the Messiah and Saviour, they would have also acknowledged His Deity.

For Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse.
Didn't grasp it then and some still don't today. Shall you pray for them or condemn them?
 

justbyfaith

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Sad. The Messiah was never prophecied to be God incarnate. Equating the 2 is pure trinitarian projection.

Nope. Isaiah 9:6 clearly shows that the Messiah will have the name of "The everlasting Father" and "the mighty God"...the latter being applied to Jehovah in Psalms 50:2 (kjv).

Didn't grasp it then and some still don't today. Shall you pray for them or condemn them?

Pray for them, of course. Because if I don't, Jesus will condemn them (Romans 8:34, John 8:24).
 

jaybird

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It is one thing to be ignorant of the doctrine of Christ's Deity and to not believe in it for that reason.

But for those who understand the doctrine and then reject it, I don't believe that they have any excuse...if they die in that state of unbelief, they will die in their sins.

Also, most people are told to read the gospel of John first thing when they become new Christians.

And they are not going to get very far into the book (about verse 14) before they come to the understanding that it is the biblical teaching that Jesus is God.

So, if they see that it is the biblical teaching and reject it, that is a heart issue that amounts to unbelief.

And since we are saved by grace through faith, unbelief on their part might be a condemning factor in their lives, don't you think?

dont forget that new Christians have to be taught the triity before they ever open a bible or they would never see it.
 

justbyfaith

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dont forget that new Christians have to be taught the triity before they ever open a bible or they would never see it.
They will see it by the time that they get to verse 14 in the 1st chapter of the gospel of John.
 

jaybird

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They will see it by the time that they get to verse 14 in the 1st chapter of the gospel of John.

nobody else did, the church had to burn people alive just to make them believe. they also had to edit scripture. very shameful.