What Is Marriage?

BARNEY BRIGHT · Mar 2, 2021

Grailhunter says:
They are not married in the eyes of God if they do not stay together.
If they stay together, they are married in the eyes of God.
How do you think people got married in the OT???[/Quote\]

First of all the first two sentences above in your post is gibberish it's only what a man thinks, it has nothing to do with God. Then the question concerning how they were married in the OT you leave way too much out.
First of all there was a process which when a hebrew mans father would asked the womans fathers for permission for his son to marry his daughter and if the daughter was in agreement then a bride price was paid to the father of the bride. At that point she is betrothed to that man. There is a scheduled time that they would bring the betrothed woman to the man's house or tent and if she has sex with any man before she was brought to the man's tent or home she is betrothed to, she would be guilty of adultery even though she has not had sex with the man she's betrothed to. You see they are considered husband and wife even though they haven't had sex with each other yet.
Plus when it came to hebrew women they had to be virgins and on the night they did have sex to the men they were betrothed to, they had to prove their virginity. All this is proof that God didn't condone single men having sex with single women until they were man and wife which as I said once betrothed they are considered man and wife before they have sex

Grailhunter · Mar 2, 2021

@BARNEY BRIGHT
Grailhunter says:
They are not married in the eyes of God if they do not stay together.
If they stay together, they are married in the eyes of God.
How do you think people got married in the OT??

First of all the first two sentences above in your post is gibberish it's only what a man thinks, Of course because if it makes no sense, then it is of God.

Then the question concerning how they were married in the OT you leave way too much out. No you insert things that are not true.

First of all there was a process which when a hebrew mans father would asked the womans fathers for permission for his son to marry his daughter and if the daughter was in agreement then a bride price was paid to the father of the bride. This process is not a wedding and consent of the woman did not matter. And here again...this is tradition. Not written anywhere as a requirement or a religious event. A man could take a woman in a field. What you are referring to here is a marriage celebration. Some of this is referenced loosely in the Songs of Solomon, but none of it occurs in the storyline of the scriptures.

Now as time went on all this became very involved...and the father of the groom would do all the negotiations with the Father of the bride. The bride might not be consulted at all. (of course all this changes after the Middle Ages) Even in the OT this could involve a contract that could include a lot of things...but it is all between the fathers. The contract has nothing to do with the couple. The father of the bride is effectively being paid to deliver a virgin.

The wedding celebration would occur at the father of the groom's house after the bridal chamber was built. The bridal chamber was a small building or tent set were the celebration was to take place, so that all present could hear the couple...coupling LOL. Those at the party listened for the cry of the bride as she was penetrated. After the groom and bride emerged from the bridal chamber the party continued. But the mother of the bride would collect the sheets to prove her daughter's virginity. Because according to Mosaic Law if the husband found his wife not to be a virgin, he could kill her and leave her at her father's doorstep. But again, none of this celebratory events were a requirement and I am sure it varied from family to family.

At that point she is betrothed to that man. There is a scheduled time that they would bring the betrothed woman to the man's house or tent and if she has sex with any man before she was brought to the man's tent or home she is betrothed to, she would be guilty of adultery even though she has not had sex with the man she's betrothed to. You see they are considered husband and wife even though they haven't had sex with each other yet. Well you laid it out...no wedding. And no, nowhere in the bible is a couple referred to as husband and wife...before they are united.

And you mentioned the betrothed and you are partially correct. This is all about property and the securing of property. Those that were betrothed were not called husband and wife. But if the women and that is only the woman were to come up pregnant (like in the case of Mary) it was considered adultery and was punishable by death. Now none of this pertained to the man because a man my be engaged to a woman, but already have three wives.

Plus when it came to hebrew women they had to be virgins and on the night they did have sex to the men they were betrothed to, they had to prove their virginity. All this is proof that God didn't condone single men having sex with single women until they were man and wife which as I said once betrothed they are considered man and wife before they have sex

The man and the woman were single until they had sex....except....except when a married man took on additional wives...then it was a married man uniting with a single woman to become his wife. Then we get into concubines like Hagar and the handmaidens of Leah that were first concubines of Jacob and then later wives. Polygamy and concubinage were traditions until they were incorporated into the Mosaic Law. And for the Jews that continued until about a thousand years after Christ. And it all happened with no weddings.

Genesis 24:67 Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent, and he took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her; thus Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son. Now I am going to say that the reading suggest that Boaz and Ruth had sex on the threshing floor. He later redeemed her and made it official.

Judges 21:21-23
21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’” 23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

Behold · Mar 3, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Ok, this has no relation to "do not touch a woman".
But thanks for posting the verse.

VictoryinJesus · Mar 3, 2021

Behold said:
Ok, this has no relation to "do not touch a woman".
But thanks for posting the verse.

Respectfully disagree, “do not touch a woman” very much has more there in all the verses speaking on “do not touch that unclean thing”.

Only saying I don’t think (as an opinion) it is so clearing as man so often wants it to be, especially in the spirit behind it.

For me it is not settled and that is okay, have to ask what is: Corinthians 7:1,7-9 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Colossians 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

1 Corinthians 7:31-33 And they that use this world, as not abusing it : for the fashion of this world passeth away. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Is it not all intertwined and connected? (Imo) it is speaking of “without faith it is impossible to please God.”

I didn’t mean to be invasive in asking if you are married. The one that is married and not “unmarried” as Paul said I would have you be as “unmarried” ...has divided interest. Then I have to ask if marriage is said to be a done deal that one then and from then on is said to have “divided interest” having the cares of the world ...then how can this one expect to receive anything from God because Christ is not divided. That house of “divided interest” falls. To say because I’m married my interest are divided ...then how “love your God with your whole heart”. May sound like I’m against marriage but I’m not ...when God is the hope of reconciliation, the only Hope in He who is for relationships.

Behold · Mar 3, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
Respectfully disagree, “do not touch a woman” very much has more there in all the verses speaking on “do not touch that unclean thing”.

Why would you think that women, or touching a woman, in the context of marriage is an "unclean thing", when the "marriage bed is undefiled" and God said to "replenish the earth", and in fact, God Himself created "sex" between a man and a woman.
This is explained in Romans 1, when God is defining the unnatural and perverted sex that occurs between 2 men, because thy have left the "natural use of the woman".
See that "natural use"?.. That is referring to the sexual intimacy that God designed to both be enjoyed and also for the sake of reproduction.
This can only happen between the "opposite sex". = A man and a woman., as this is "natural", and God given.

Grailhunter · Mar 3, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
Respectfully disagree, “do not touch a woman” very much has more there in all the verses speaking on “do not touch that unclean thing”.

Only saying I don’t think (as an opinion) it is so clearing as man so often wants it to be, especially in the spirit behind it.

For me it is not settled and that is okay, have to ask what is: Corinthians 7:1,7-9 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Colossians 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

1 Corinthians 7:31-33 And they that use this world, as not abusing it : for the fashion of this world passeth away. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Is it not all intertwined and connected? (Imo) it is speaking of “without faith it is impossible to please God.”

I didn’t mean to be invasive in asking if you are married. The one that is married and not “unmarried” as Paul said I would have you be as “unmarried” ...has divided interest. Then I have to ask if marriage is said to be a done deal that one then and from then on is said to have “divided interest” having the cares of the world ...then how can this one expect to receive anything from God because Christ is not divided. That house of “divided interest” falls. To say because I’m married my interest are divided ...then how “love your God with your whole heart”. May sound like I’m against marriage but I’m not ...when God is the hope of reconciliation, the only Hope in He who is for relationships.

Hey Victory...good morning.
I am trying to understand your concern.
You have a lot going on in this post.
Would it be to much to ask, for you to express your concerns a little more clearly, in your own words?

VictoryinJesus · Mar 3, 2021

Behold said:
Why would you think that women, or touching a woman, in the context of marriage is an "unclean thing", when the "marriage bed is undefiled" and God said to "replenish the earth", and in fact, God Himself created "sex" between a man and a woman.
This is explained in Romans 1, when God is defining the unnatural and perverted sex that occurs between 2 men, because thy have left the "natural use of the woman".
See that "natural use"?.. That is referring to the sexual intimacy that God designed to both be enjoyed and also for the sake of reproduction.
This can only happen between the "opposite sex". = A man and a woman., as this is "natural", and God given.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

what marriage bed is “honorable” in all, and the bed undefiled? Is there no connection then to “take up thy bed and walk” or what bed Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

Here we are discussing conception, (an incorruptible) seed and and consummation and a bringing forth and “blessed are they called to the marriage supper of the Lamb”...is it God’s marriage bed undefiled or our beds?

Revelation 2:20-22 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Forgot
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Tecarta Bible

VictoryinJesus · Mar 3, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Hey Victory...good morning.
I am trying to understand your concern.
You have a lot going on in this post.
Would it be to much to ask, for you to express your concerns a little more clearly, in your own words?

If you are married...are your interest then divided and you have the cares of the world?

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

VictoryinJesus · Mar 3, 2021

Behold said:
This is explained in Romans 1, when God is defining the unnatural and perverted sex that occurs between 2 men, because thy have left the "natural use of the woman".

could give another explanation for how they burn in lust one toward another. Murmuring, debating, false accusing, hatred, high-minded, trucebreakers, seeking after their own and not the things of another. Without natural affection. The competition begins for who is in the chief most high seats. “Burn” in lust one toward another...I covet what you have, I will steal and kill and destroy to get what you have, I burn to have and have not because I do not ask and if I do ask ...I ask to consume and devour it on my own lust.

Grailhunter · Mar 3, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
If you are married...are your interested then divided and you have the cares of the world?

Thank you.
I know that some do not like to consider the context of the scenario in which the letters and epistles of Paul and others were written.
So I will offer this and you can take it for what it is worth.

As Christians we would like to think that the Apostles were big on marriage and there was a "focus on the family" in what they wrote. And all things being "normal" I am confident that the Apostles thought that marriage and family were top priority.
But the scenario that the NT scriptures were written in.....was not normal.

There was a sense of extreme urgency. All the Apostles believed that Christ would return soon and persecutions would occur before that. All efforts were being made to save as many souls as possible, before that occurred. The circumstances were governing their focus. And a little bit of human thinking was that, why would you want to take a wife and produce children to only watch them being slaughtered.

For that reason the NT is not Christianity's best illustration of Christ's interest in marriage and children. For sure Christ loves marriage and children....The statement that Paul made....1st Timothy 2:15 But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation. This statement has a mouthful of meanings. Some take it as derogatory but it is not. Of course Paul was a well educated devote Jew that had turned his ministry to the Gentiles. But he brings in a ton of Jewish culture. He reflects on this and it gets confusing sometimes.

In the Jewish culture and religion, a woman was not complete unless she brought forth children for her husband. And as far as the husband was concerned, it was a sign of God's favor for him to have an abundance of children. This is all wrapped up in their culture and their religion. Women did not have anything to be circumcised so as to be included in God's Covenant. Their inclusion was dependent on marrying a Jew and having children. So Paul's statement in Timothy has a little of that Jew showing through when he says, But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation. He is not belittling women, it is a set condition of honor. A human being cannot do anything more important in this world than bring forth children. Mothers are the center piece of Christianity...it take two to tango, but only one can nourish a child from themselves and literally hold the future of Christianity in their hands.

So being married...being a mother does not diminish your standing as a Christian. It does not burden your faith...the fate of Christianity was literally in the hands of mothers. Of course there are Christian women that are married that do not have children for one reason or another. At which point they are team with their Christian husband. We see some of this in Paul's writings, where married couples served the church.

So I am not sure if that explains things for you...but it is the truth.

Tone · Mar 3, 2021

Marriage is sanctuary...I'm headed that way...!

April_Rose · Mar 3, 2021

Grailhunter said:
I guarantee you that it matters to somebody. Because the tradition has change the pretext to the point that Christ cannot be the Son of God. The whole Father and Son relationship is significantly important to the storyline. It is not about a God and a creation. God so loved the world that He gave his only Messiah-God creation. A created God...not a Son. The Son of Man and the Son of God is connected to this concept...God in human form. Otherwise He could have appeared on a mountain top

The motivation for this wrong thinking caused the most horrific atrocities in history...atrocities committed by the Church.

Forget it! I'm done arguing with you and we're getting off the subject of what this thread is about.

Grailhunter · Mar 3, 2021

April_Rose said:
Forget it! I'm done arguing with you and we're getting off the subject of what this thread is about.

I am not arguing. But do what you want.

Ronald Nolette · Mar 3, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
If simply an act of sex makes people married then how can all these people who are single and having sex with each other not be married to each other in the eyes of God.

Well Paul says when someone has sex with a prostitute they become one flesh with her. YOu can take it up woth Jesus when you bow before His throne.

kcnalp · Mar 3, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Why don't you stay on topic

You always stay on topic? More JW hypocrisy!

VictoryinJesus · Mar 3, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Thank you.
I know that some do not like to consider the context of the scenario in which the letters and epistles of Paul and others were written.
So I will offer this and you can take it for what it is worth.

As Christians we would like to think that the Apostles were big on marriage and there was a "focus on the family" in what they wrote. And all things being "normal" I am confident that the Apostles thought that marriage and family were top priority.
But the scenario that the NT scriptures were written in.....was not normal.

There was a sense of extreme urgency. All the Apostles believed that Christ would return soon and persecutions would occur before that. All efforts were being made to save as many souls as possible, before that occurred. The circumstances were governing their focus. And a little bit of human thinking was that, why would you want to take a wife and produce children to only watch them being slaughtered.

For that reason the NT is not Christianity's best illustration of Christ's interest in marriage and children. For sure Christ loves marriage and children....The statement that Paul made....1st Timothy 2:15 But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation. This statement has a mouthful of meanings. Some take it as derogatory but it is not. Of course Paul was a well educated devote Jew that had turned his ministry to the Gentiles. But he brings in a ton of Jewish culture. He reflects on this and it gets confusing sometimes.

In the Jewish culture and religion, a woman was not complete unless she brought forth children for her husband. And as far as the husband was concerned, it was a sign of God's favor for him to have an abundance of children. This is all wrapped up in their culture and their religion. Women did not have anything to be circumcised so as to be included in God's Covenant. Their inclusion was dependent on marrying a Jew and having children. So Paul's statement in Timothy has a little of that Jew showing through when he says, But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation. He is not belittling women, it is a set condition of honor. A human being cannot do anything more important in this world than bring forth children. Mothers are the center piece of Christianity...it take two to tango, but only one can nourish a child from themselves and literally hold the future of Christianity in their hands.

So being married...being a mother does not diminish your standing as a Christian. It does not burden your faith...the fate of Christianity was literally in the hands of mothers. Of course there are Christian women that are married that do not have children for one reason or another. At which point they are team with their Christian husband. We see some of this in Paul's writings, where married couples served the church.

So I am not sure if that explains things for you...but it is the truth.

that is not what I asked. I asked are your interest divided and do you have the cares of the world. If yes...why? If no...why?

Grailhunter · Mar 3, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
that is not what I asked. I asked are your interest divided and do you have the cares of the world. If yes...why? If no...why?

Divide is a parting...and nothing divides us from Christ. Not like the pie anyway.

Using the extreme as an example...anything but Christian devotion would distract you....but can there be too much of a good thing? Too remove any distraction you would more or less have to remove nearly all human contact... That is why early Christians lived in caves..cliffs...in the desert...graveyards...towers....trees....and monasteries.

Somehow they got it in their heads that taking the most devoted and separating from society and other Christians served a purpose.
I believe it just neutralized God's champions....made them of little affect.

In the world...not of the world...you have to be in the world to be a beacon of light....to be able to plant seeds....so sprinkle that salt...and that take all walks of life...to serve Christ....If all were missionaries and no farmers that would not end well. If we were all preachers and no doctors...same thing. Mother and wives as I pointed out before are part of this. Cares of the world is another topic and would have to be defined....ancient and modern.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Mar 4, 2021

Ronald Nolette said:
Well Paul says when someone has sex with a prostitute they become one flesh with her. YOu can take it up woth Jesus when you bow before His throne.

I ask the question sarcastically at post #234. I know that simply having sex with a person doesn't make them married. It's just that some believe that the act of sex is what makes you married and I disagree.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Mar 4, 2021

kcnalp said:
You always stay on topic? More JW hypocrisy!

How about stop blaming all JW for my mistakes. Yes I've gone off topic but I'm trying to change. How about you do the same.

Grailhunter · Mar 4, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I ask the question sarcastically at post #234. I know that simply having sex with a person doesn't make them married. It's just that some believe that the act of sex is what makes you married and I disagree.

Again all you have to do is come up with a requirement for a wedding and you cannot not do that because it is not there.
With your line of thinking, no one in the Bible was married.

What Is Marriage?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads