Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · Feb 21, 2021

Davy said:
Not really how it was. God foreknew Adam and Eve would sin against Him simply because that is what the 'flesh' causes...

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

God knew the imperfect nature of Adam and Eve's flesh. And it had to happen, so that His Salvation through His Son could be offered to those who believe.

This should beg the next question though, as to WHY... God setup man to fail with the flesh. He revealed that too, for those who listen in His Word.

I'm not too sure what you're saying in your post with "Not really how it was", Davy.

No scripture in your post states that man has a freewill.

In fact, man has a bondwill. Man is bonded to the devil while man is in the flesh, or man is bonded to King Jesus while man is in the Holy Spirit (John 8:34-47).

Adam was not created with a freewill just as the original post states.

justbyfaith · Feb 21, 2021

Passages that speak of man's free will include Joshua 24:15, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17, and John 1:12.

Kermos · Feb 24, 2021

101G said:
not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. as you said, "it "HAD" to happen. it was a matter of time, but for it to happen, they was given a choice, supportive scripture, Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"

well that nailed it for me. "thou mayest freely eat". when God said that, THOU .... MAY .... "FREELY" ... EAT? game over.

for it was as we both agree, a matter of time.... supportive scripture, Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

that again confirm my understanding. "made subject", ....... that equate choice.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

You are adding to scripture because you wrote "they was given a choice".

The scripture that you cite as support for your unbiblical position, Genesis 2:16, clearly states "God commanded man".

Genesis 2:16, nor any scripture for that matter, states that God asked man to choose ANYTHING. The word is "commanded". The word is not "asked".

Again, the word "choose" nor it's conjugate is found in "thou mayest freely eat". so Genesis 2:16 does not say "thou mayest choose to freely eat".

The word "freely" conveys liberty; in other words, the ability of liberty of action is conveyed. Not choice. Truly action.

A creature (person in this case) is either against God or for God. The old creature is made (as in created) subject to vanity (Romans 8:20). The new creature is born of the Spirit of the Living God (John 3:3-8).

You strip off the continuation of God's command with your claim of "game over".

Here is the complete quote of the Word of God from the passage, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17).

There is the complete command.

Action is mentioned. Choice is not mentioned.

The old creature acted against God's command.

The new creature acts in righteousness, that is, Christ!

As the original post clearly delineates, Adam was not imparted free-will; on the other hand, Adam was imparted with bond-will.

101G · Feb 24, 2021

Kermos said:
You are adding to scripture because you wrote "they was given a choice".

The scripture that you cite as support for your unbiblical position, Genesis 2:16, clearly states "God commanded man".

Genesis 2:16, nor any scripture for that matter, states that God asked man to choose ANYTHING. The word is "commanded". The word is not "asked".

ERROR,
Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"

Mayest here is a choice, listen to the definition. expressing possibility.

and the next verse is a warning that goes with this FREEDOM of Choice, Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.". so the choice was Adam to eat or not to eat.
so my biblical position still stands.

Kermos said:
Again, the word "choose" nor it's conjugate is found in "thou mayest freely eat". so Genesis 2:16 does not say "thou mayest choose to freely eat"

LIE on your part, see above.

Kermos said:
The word "freely" conveys liberty; in other words, the ability of liberty of action is conveyed. Not choice. Truly action.

Another LIE, without knowing... expressing possibility is a thing that may be chosen or done out of several possible alternatives.

Kermos said:
Here is the complete quote of the Word of God from the passage, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17).

as said, it's a WARRING in this FREE CHOICE.

Kermos said:
There is the complete command.

Action is mentioned. Choice is not mentioned.

The old creature acted against God's command.

The new creature acts in righteousness, that is, Christ!

As the original post clearly delineates, Adam was not imparted free-will; on the other hand, Adam was imparted with bond-will.

ANOTHER LIE, ADAM was given a choice, not aganist God command, but aganist God's WARRING, for the scriptures are true,
Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope," BINGO, you might want to read that verse again.
Romans 8:21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
BECAUSE?, BECAUSE?
this is the kind of nonesense I'm speaking of. deception straight out of the pit of hell. when will people truly believ the Word of God.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Kermos · Mar 6, 2021

Nancy said:
Hi Kermos,
You have brought out some good food for thought about Adam and his not knowing of "good and evil" before partaking of the fruit. God knew he would do just what he did do, as He knows the end from the beginning of all things. How else could the gospel come about unless A & E did NOT partake? God's plans have already happened in eternity, He knows who will do what and He uses even the bad for His good. His plans are awesome.

Not to get off topic here as, there is allot to digest from your post. But...I do believe that man now does have free will to choose whom to serve. If we ask for the Holy Spirit :
Luke 11:9-13
"So if you, despite being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him??"

So, will He deny this to anyone who seeks Him? Or, will He harden their hearts because they are not of "the elect"?
I will be saving this post for further study.
God Bless!

Hello Nancy,

That's a thoughtful response.

I'm going to address the second half of your post first.

We have this in scripture, "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him" (John 9:31).

Now, from that verse, who "is God-fearing and does His will" is given in this scripture "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Now from that verse, the conclusion is clear that a person's deeds, such as asking God for the Holy Spirit is "manifested as having been wrought in God".

Such a person asking the One True God for the Holy Spirit does such as a creature born from above (John 3:3-8), so it is the will of God that such a person ask for God's Holy Spirit.

Nancy, you mentioned your belief that man can "choose whom to serve".

The Son of God, the Redeemer, says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Now, from that verse, the conclusion to who chooses who for what purpose, and not, is clear. God chooses persons, but persons do not choose God.

The Son of God, the Redeemer, says "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die" (John 11:25-26).

Now, from that verse, belief/faith is important according to Lord Jesus Christ. The belief/faith spoken of by the Son of God, Who chooses persons unto salvation and sanctification, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Now, all of this elucidates that man is impotent with respect to salvation for God says God does it all. All glory for salvation is God's and God's alone (Isaiah 42:8).

Returning to the first half of your post.

You wrote "God's plans have already happened in eternity". I do not find a scrpture reference for this statement, Nancy; furthermore, the logical extension of your claim indicates that the future that the earth and it's inhabitents will encounter are actually already complete which means that coming events cannot be changed because such coming events must align with the events that already happended in eternity. Roughtly translated, this means there is no free-will.

Since you mention "God's plans", I'd like to return to the originial post to specifically item 2.2. "Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world". God's plan cannot be thwarted by people (Isaiah 14:27).

In all of this, it is evident that man has a bond-will, not a free-will.

In all of this, it is evident that any person saved from the wrath of God is brought to salvation by God for God's glory.

The only way for a person to see the One True God is for the One True God to reveal the One True God to such a person (Luke 10:22). Please notice the near proximity of Luke 10:22 to Luke 11:9-13.

I'm glad you wrote you would save the original post for further study. The original post contains much important scriptural information about God's reign in God's Kingdom, and I pray it serves God well!

Nancy · Mar 6, 2021

Kermos said:
Hello Nancy,

That's a thoughtful response.

I'm going to address the second half of your post first.

We have this in scripture, "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him" (John 9:31).

Now, from that verse, who "is God-fearing and does His will" is given in this scripture "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Now from that verse, the conclusion is clear that a person's deeds, such as asking God for the Holy Spirit is "manifested as having been wrought in God".

Such a person asking the One True God for the Holy Spirit does such as a creature born from above (John 3:3-8), so it is the will of God that such a person ask for God's Holy Spirit.

Nancy, you mentioned your belief that man can "choose whom to serve".

The Son of God, the Redeemer, says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Now, from that verse, the conclusion to who chooses who for what purpose, and not, is clear. God chooses persons, but persons do not choose God.

The Son of God, the Redeemer, says "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die" (John 11:25-26).

Now, from that verse, belief/faith is important according to Lord Jesus Christ. The belief/faith spoken of by the Son of God, Who chooses persons unto salvation and sanctification, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Now, all of this elucidates that man is impotent with respect to salvation for God says God does it all. All glory for salvation is God's and God's alone (Isaiah 42:8).

Returning to the first half of your post.

You wrote "God's plans have already happened in eternity". I do not find a scrpture reference for this statement, Nancy; furthermore, the logical extension of your claim indicates that the future that the earth and it's inhabitents will encounter are actually already complete which means that coming events cannot be changed because such coming events must align with the events that already happended in eternity. Roughtly translated, this means there is no free-will.

Since you mention "God's plans", I'd like to return to the originial post to specifically item 2.2. "Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world". God's plan cannot be thwarted by people (Isaiah 14:27).

In all of this, it is evident that man has a bond-will, not a free-will.

In all of this, it is evident that any person saved from the wrath of God is brought to salvation by God for God's glory.

The only way for a person to see the One True God is for the One True God to reveal the One True God to such a person (Luke 10:22). Please notice the near proximity of Luke 10:22 to Luke 11:9-13.

I'm glad you wrote you would save the original post for further study. The original post contains much important scriptural information about God's reign in God's Kingdom, and I pray it serves God well!

Thank you @Kermos , for your well thought our reply. This is such a controversial subject, if ever there were one, lol. I am grateful you are being kind about it!

As far as God "God's plans have already happened in eternity", no, there is no specific scripture that does say that but it is sure inferred?
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Isaiah 14:24
"The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

And several other verses infer this to me, anyhow.

"In all of this, it is evident that man has a bond-will, not a free-will."

I see Christians as bond-servants to Christ when we joyfully serve Him, but one forced to serve to me, is not a "bond-servant" but kind of a slave? I do see myself as a "willing" slave (bond-servant?) to Christ but it is not a burden, and not forced.

T.U.L.I.P. Makes me very sad. Makes me lose hope and joy for family, friends and all the lost people I see around my neighborhood. My "thing" is to pray for the lost, pray for God to soften hearts and open eyes and ears to hear and see His Truth...HIM. It also has me wondering if God really is LOVE. Love encompasses all of His characteristics. His judgement, His wrath, all of it is JUST but, not so much if God purposely created some humans to be sent to hell. I think humans can do that pretty well on there own.

Mark 4:12
"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

I know this is Jesus speaking of the Pharisees and scoffers but, it seems that if they DID perceive then, understand, then converted having their sins forgiven would mean, they would have had a choice.

Yes agreed that everything God does is for His glory, and He does work through us down here to bring others to Him. It is what I see over and over again in the word.
In the end, we will all know the whole, complete, unadulterated TRUTH, Amen!

Anyhow Kermos, we might not agree 100% here, but I can understand why some believe this doctrine. I am starting to think it is a bit of both!

Again brother,
Good and kind and thoughtful post.
God bless and keep you in Him.
nancy

Davy · Mar 7, 2021

Kermos said:
I'm not too sure what you're saying in your post with "Not really how it was", Davy.

No scripture in your post states that man has a freewill.

In fact, man has a bondwill. Man is bonded to the devil while man is in the flesh, or man is bonded to King Jesus while man is in the Holy Spirit (John 8:34-47).

Adam was not created with a freewill just as the original post states.

And I'm not too sure what you're saying about 'bonded'.

I don't believe in Calvinism, God has given man a free will to seek and follow Him, or not. It's only that He gives some the calling to The Gospel, and others the brute beast nature to work corruption (Jude 1). But even those have free will to overcome their natural brute beast nature and believe on Jesus Christ. So I don't know what 'hireling' has told you we don't have free will, but I'd be wary of them.

Kermos · Mar 22, 2021

GISMYS_7 said:
Think!!! If you are choosen by God and another not choosen==WHY??? Answer = God is outside time and knew before you were born that you would choose to believe and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and another would choose to reject Him ===example of that truth is Jacob and Esau ===Jacob was loved by God before he was born but Easu was hated.

Straight away, Adam was not created with free-will to choose God unto salvation as indicated in the original post; therefore, no mere mortal person after Adam could choose God for salvation either.

Now, onto your mention of "choose" and "believe" and "accept Jesus" which you convey that you believe are all decisions by persons.

Our beneficiaries gracious Benefactor produces

divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God
beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Philippians "being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God
beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

AND, Peter is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

Kermos · Mar 23, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Concerning these scriptures:

Truly truly I say to you before Abraham was I am (John 8:58)

Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί (John 8:58)

At John 8:24;28 in kJV, ASV, NASB, NIV the same Greek expression,"ἐγὼ εἰμί," is translated as, "I am he," not as,"I am." But that aside, you and others like you, continue to take this scripture out of context to prove your belief. Since that is who you are, so be it.

It is not a question of what the translators did, the Truth is that the Word of God used the specific Greek words ἐγὼ εἰμί (ego eimi) in Exodus 3:14, John 8:28, and John 8:58 which translates to English as “I am”. If you believe that Jesus is not the I AM, then that is to your own destruction.

I know Jesus wasn't talking about his identity, but instead was saying he was older than Abraham because he existed before Abraham was even born. Which is true,The Only Begotten Son of God was in existence before Abraham was born.

Lord Jesus can say one set of words with multiple meanings for that single set of words.

You saying this statement:
We find Lord Jesus saying "ἐγώ εἰμι" ("I am") in John 8:28 which are the same words as recorded in John 8:58!
This statement as I said isn't consistent with other Bible translations which translate this same Greek expression, "ἐγὼ εἰμί," at John 8:24,28 as, "I am he," not as, "I am." Why a different translation if it's the same words as you have admitted. Some translations even capitalize the words, "I am," to read, "I AM to make us believe Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:14.

Just because Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham was born doesn't mean he's saying that he's God. He's just saying he existed before Abraham was born, was in existence while Abraham was in existence in this world. The point is The Only Begotten Son of God existed in heaven before Abraham was born.

Since Jesus Christ says He existed prior to Abraham, this puts the Christ beyond the limits of mortal men’s lives thus placing Christ as God.

There is One True God, so the One True God is Father, Son, and Spirit. The One True God is I AM.

You and others who want to make more out of it than that, just show how you will take a Scripture out of context to prove your belief and that's all its ever going to mean to me.
You're right about the fact that Antichrists will not believe the words of Jesus Christ and as I said I've not seen any Scripture in the Bible that Jesus said he was and is God. The only thing I have seen is people such as you and others who put your interpretations on a Scripture as important instead of what's written down, or you'll take a Scripture out of context to try to prove your beliefs. I will always say that people have the right to their interpretation of the scriptures, they also have the right to express what they believe to be the truth. However since every human on the planet has the same rights as everyone else, you have to understand that there will be those who will disagree with you. You can call them antichrists or false prophets or whatever you want but if you or anyone hasn't proven to them from the scriptures that what they believe isn't consistent with the scriptures then such people have no need to change.

Interpretaion of scripture is up to the person being the Holy Spirit, not to mere mortal persons (2 Peter 1:20-21), so your interpretation fails.

Human interpretation of scripture leads to people believing in the evil thing called free will, and Adam was NOT imparted free will per the scripturally rich original post to this thread.

The Word of God proves that Jesus is the I AM because, as I wrote to you previously, the Jews employed a literary mechanism to refer back to things written (in the Old Testament) (post in this thread).

If you do not believe that Jesus is the I AM referred to in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14, then you do not believe in Jesus.

Anyone not believing in Jesus faces the wrath of God (John 3:36).

BARNEY BRIGHT · Mar 23, 2021

Kermis said:
It is not a question of what the translators did, the Truth is that the Word of God used the specific Greek words ἐγὼ εἰμί (ego eimi) in Exodus 3:14, John 8:28, and John 8:58 which translates to English as “I am”. If you believe that Jesus is not the I AM, then that is to your own destruction.[/Quote\]

In the greek septuagint version which is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria ,Egypt, before the birth of Christ. When you compare the greek scripture of John 8:58 with the scripture of Exodus 3:14 of the greek septuagint version, Exodus 3:14 doesn't have the greek expression Ego' eimi for God's name. The septuagint version Exodus 3:14 uses the greek word "hoOn" which means, "The Being," or, "The One who is." So the greek expression "Ego' eimi," isn't used at both Exodus 3:14 and John 5:58.

Kermos · Mar 23, 2021

Taken said:
Eh...sure there is;

They may eat...Does NOT mean "required to eat". Yes they HAD choices to Eat or not, from every tree in the garden!

Gen 2:
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

One Consequence if "they choose" to Eat from a tree told to avoid.

Gen 2:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

First, it is prudent to take the whole command of God together:

From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
(Genesis 2:16-17)

The word "From" is preceded by "The LORD God commanded the man, saying," (Genesis 2:16), so the whole of God's Word there is command.

You confuse "liberty" to eat without punishment when the Word of God says "you may eat freely" (Genesis 2:16) with "freewill".

Actions are indicated therein, not choice (for the word "choice" nor "choose" nor it's conjugates are therein).

Adam had liberty of action to eat of trees of the garden according to God's command; however, in the same command Adam was prohibited from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then Adam would die.

The original post to this thread remains true and accurate, Adam was not imparted freewill by God.

Taken · Mar 23, 2021

Kermos said:
First, it is prudent to take the whole command of God together:

From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
(Genesis 2:16-17)

The word "From" is preceded by "The LORD God commanded the man, saying," (Genesis 2:16), so the whole of God's Word there is command.

You confuse "liberty" to eat without punishment when the Word of God says "you may eat freely" (Genesis 2:16) with "freewill".

Actions are indicated therein, not choice (for the word "choice" nor "choose" nor it's conjugates are therein).

Adam had liberty of action to eat of trees of the garden according to God's command; however, in the same command Adam was prohibited from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then Adam would die.

The original post to this thread remains true and accurate, Adam was not imparted freewill by God.

Laws, Statutes, Precepts are directions for a favorable outcome. (Penal Laws are a possible negative consequence for violation)

Freewill is a choice. Laws, Statutes, Precepts do not supersede a man's mind to choose what he desires.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Mar 23, 2021

Kermos said:
First, it is prudent to take the whole command of God together:

From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
(Genesis 2:16-17)

The word "From" is preceded by "The LORD God commanded the man, saying," (Genesis 2:16), so the whole of God's Word there is command.

You confuse "liberty" to eat without punishment when the Word of God says "you may eat freely" (Genesis 2:16) with "freewill".

Actions are indicated therein, not choice (for the word "choice" nor "choose" nor it's conjugates are therein).

Adam had liberty of action to eat of trees of the garden according to God's command; however, in the same command Adam was prohibited from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then Adam would die.

The original post to this thread remains true and accurate, Adam was not imparted freewill by God.

I'm going to disagree. I believe freewill to be able to make our own choices. I don't think God or anyone else is making our choices for us. I believe we can make our choices.

Kermos · Mar 24, 2021

GISMYS_7 said:
Obey God or not =all our choice!!

Your post utterly lacks scriptural support; in other words, you have no citations to support your thoughts, and your thoughts are not God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

As the original post accurately and scripturally illuminate, Adam did not get created with a freewill, so no mere person since Adam has a freewill.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 25, 2021

MattMooradian said:
By your view, God made Adam without free will. So, Adam is predetermined by God to sin. How was Adam free to make a different choice if his actions were predetermined? Bible verses or not, you stance lacks logic.

I depend on the Word of God for understanding (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Apparently, based on your words of "Bible verses or not", you depend on your thoughts as a basis for salvation; furthermore, your post lacks Biblical citation.

I declare to you that it is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

The creation account in Genesis 1 to Genesis 3 does NOT include any mention of "choice" for Adam, so your question exceeds scripture within it's bounds.

The original post to this thread demonstrates as based on the Word of God that Adam was not imparted with free-will.

You, MattMooradian, actually have self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because you try to impose your thoughts upon angelic majesties instead of depending on the revelation of God.

Stumpmaster · Mar 26, 2021

Adam sinned because he could.
In eternity God foreknew he would.
God is always just and true
Telling Adam what not to do.

God did not make Adam disobey
Eat the forbidden fruit He did not say.
God is always just and true
He tells us all what not to do.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when He is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man: (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Kermos · Mar 26, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
You of course know what I was trying to say to you, when I said, "it seems to me God was asking the impossible from Adam when God commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree." I honestly don't think you're that ignorant that you didn't know what I was saying, but if I'm wrong and you are that ignorant and don't know what I was trying to say, I'll put it this way, " I don't believe that God commands his creations to do or not do something that's impossible for them to do or not do." When you or someone says that God knew Adam was going to be disobedient before creating him, then God would be commanding Adam to do something that was impossible for him to do. If God looked into the future before creating Adam and sees him being disobedient, then that is exactly what's going to happen, Adams course was set before he was even created. God can command Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree , but since you and others say that God knew he would be disobedient before even creating him God was commanding Adam to obey a command that was impossible for him to obey, and like I said I don't believe God commands his creations to obey impossible commands. Now I believe that because of the way God created his creations, whether they be Angels or humans, God creating them with free will, he knew there was the possibility for any of his creations to choose to be disobedient. That doesn't mean however that God looked into the future to see whether or not Adam would be disobedient or not.

God commanded Adam (Genesis 2:16-17). You wrote "asking", so you subtracted "commanded" and you added "asked". That is your freewill deception showing through, BARNEY BRIGHT. The bottom line, "asking" is what you wrote. Now you write "commands", but you insert the scripturally nonexistent freewill for man.

It sounds ot me like you are calling the Apostle Peter a liar for Peter said "why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10), so people are incapable of keeping the commandments to God's satisfaction (James 2:10).

As the original post states, Adam was not imparted freewill, so no man after Adam has been imparted freewill.

Kermos · Apr 6, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Kermos says
The Apostle Peter differs from your writing, for the Apostle Peter wrote "but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted - Christ`s - foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly," (1 Peter 1:19-22 YLT)[/Quote\]

I know you believe that the Apostle Peter disagrees with me by the way you choose to look at 1Peter 1:19-22, but I choose to look at many scriptures that contain the phrases, "before thefoundation of the world" or "from the foundation of the world," and keep them in context.

Let's take the word ko??smos, in one basic sense, it refers to all humankind. The Scriptures therefore describe the ko??smos, or world, as being guilty of sin (Joh 1:29; Ro 3:19; 5:12, 13) and needing a savior to give it life (Joh 4:42; 6:33, 51; 12:47; 1Jo 4:14), things applicable only to mankind, not to the inanimate creation nor to the animals. This is the world that God loved so much that ??he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.?? (Joh 3:16, 17; compare 2Co 5:19; 1Ti 1:15; 1Jo 2:2.) That world of mankind forms the field in which Jesus Christ sowed the fine seed, ??the sons of the kingdom.????Mt 13:24, 37, 38.

At John 1:10 it says of Jesus that ??the world [ko??smos] came into existence through him.?? While it is true that Jesus shared in the production of all things, including the heavens and the planet Earth and all things in it, ko??smos here applies primarily to humankind in whose production Jesus likewise shared. (Compare Joh 1:3; Col 1:15-17; Ge 1:26.) Hence, the rest of the verse says: ??But the world [that is, the world of mankind] did not know him.??

??The fondation of the world.?? then has a clear connection of ko??smos with the world of mankind and aids one in understanding what is meant by ??the foundation of the world,?? as referred to in a number of texts. These texts speak of certain things as taking place ??from the foundation of the world.?? These include the ??shedding of the blood of the prophets?? from the time of Abel onward, a ??kingdom prepared,?? and ??names being written on the scroll of life.?? (Lu 11:50, 51; Mt 25:34; Re 13:8; 17:8; compare Mt 13:35; Heb 9:26.) Such things relate to human life and activity, and hence ??the foundation of the world?? relates to the beginning of mankind, not of the inanimate creation or the animal creation. Hebrews 4:3 shows that God??s creative works were, not started, but ??finished from the foundation of the world.?? Since Eve was evidently the last of Jehovah??s earthly creative works, the world??s foundation could not precede her.

The Greek term (ka�?ta�?bo�?le??) for ??foundation?? can refer to the conceiving of seed in human conception. Ka�?ta�?bo�?le?? literally means ??a throwing down [of seed]?? and at Hebrews 11:11 may be rendered ??conceive." Its use there evidently refers to Abraham??s ??throwing down?? human seed for the begetting of a son and Sarah??s receiving that seed so as to be fertilized.

Therefore ??the foundation of the world?? isn't to be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression ??before the foundation of the world?? (Joh 17:5, 24; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions relate to the time when the human race was ??founded?? through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed that could benefit from God??s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.??Ge 3:20-24; 4:1, 2.

In order to maintain thread consistency, since you broke it, here is the link to the post to which you replied.

The Person of the Holy Spirit of God is needed in a saved person in order for a saved person to understand scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21).

From my contact with Watchtower people, I understand that you do not believe in the Person of the Holy Spirit of God, so you are outside understanding scripture.

Now, the context within 1 Peter 1:19-22 includes timeframes. Christ's shedding of His Blood occurred in a timeframe. The "before the foundation of the world" is a timeframe. The "last times" is a timeframe. The "foreknown" includes a timeframe.

The first timeframe to consider is when Christ shed His Blood, His Precious Blood, for Peter mentions it in 1 Peter 1:19. He shed His Blood on the cross (Luke 23:33-46).

The next timeframe to consider is the "foreknown" which is precisely the same as "know before" (1 Peter 1:20). Lord Jesus Christ's being lifted up on the cross was known before it happened for He said things like "even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

The next timeframe to consider is the "last times" which is the timeframe after the crucifixion of Christ when Peter was walking the earth and on to today and on to tomorrow (if there is a tomorrow).

The next timeframe to consider is "before the foundation of the world" which is the timeframe of "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1) because Peter had just written of the prophets (1 Peter 1:10) then of the forefathers (1 Peter 1:18), so this timeframe occurs before the prophets.

When Peter wrote "foreknown" he indicated a time in the past beyond the crucifixion, a time before Christ proclaimed His Own bloody crucifixion, a time before the forefathers, a time before the prophets, a time before the foundation of the world.

As another way of looking at the passage, when Peter wrote "known before", he did not stop there, rather Peter repeated the "before" thus he amplified the meaning of Christ being "known before" by writing that going back to the creation of the world that the Christ was known before that time with "before the foundation of the world".

If the word "conceive" were used in place of "foundation", then 1 Peter 1:20 would be rendered "before the conception of the world" which results in precisely the same meaning of before the world was founded.

The "before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20) is referring to "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1).

You are trying to interpret out, that is subtract the meaning from scripture, of the timeframe represented by "before the foundation of the world" which means before the world was founded.

Your interpretation, not God's interpretation, but your interpretation remains lost - it violates item 2.2 of the original post.

The precious blood of Christ's sacrifice for the atonement of sins known before the foundation of the world.

Item 2.2 is true as written in the original post.

Kermos · Apr 8, 2021

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Kermos says:
Adam and EVe could NOT know what evil was before eating of the tree because God says "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22); therefore, in God's statement it is clear that for Adam and Even the verb phrase "has become" means that Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; on the other hand, Adam and Eve did have a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.[/Quote\]

What I was trying to say is the first human pair were not devoid of knowledge of good and bad. God had told them that it would be wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree; so Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad. In other words Adam understood the command (Gen. 2:16, 17) So the particular ??knowledge?? indicated by the ??tree of the knowledge of good and bad?? involved a self-determinatio of what is good and bad. On this, Professor T. J. Conant wrote: ??By disregarding the divine will, and deciding and acting on his own, man chose to know for himself what is good and evil.?? Yes, Adam and Eve rejected God??s determination and chose to set up their own standard of what was good and what was bad. That's what that scripture means when God says Adam and Eve had become like them. Instead of Adam and Eve allowing God to decide what was good or Evil for Adam and Eve they decided that they like God could decide what was good or Evil for themselves, without God's input.

In your very first sentence, you are speaking against the Word of God, BARNEY BRIGHT, because God said of Adam and Eve, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) which means that Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil just as the original post indicates in item 2.3.

You add to scripture again, for God did not explictly state that it was "wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree".

Here's the command that God issued "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17).

Notice that God did not explictly state "wrong or bad".

Notice that, regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, within the command, God did state an action with a resultant punishment.

So, when you wrote "Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad" you are adding to scripture, and such action by you carries a deadly punishment.

Adam and Eve decided NOTHING according to scripture.

You remain in violation of item 2.3.

You seem to have disconnected the thread again, so please see this link that I suspect is the post to which you replied.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Apr 9, 2021

Kermos said:
In your very first sentence, you are speaking against the Word of God, BARNEY BRIGHT, because God said of Adam and Eve, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) which means that Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil just as the original post indicates in item 2.3.

You add to scripture again, for God did not explictly state that it was "wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree".

Here's the command that God issued "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17).

Notice that God did not explictly state "wrong or bad".

Notice that, regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, within the command, God did state an action with a resultant punishment.

So, when you wrote "Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad" you are adding to scripture, and such action by you carries a deadly punishment.

Adam and Eve decided NOTHING according to scripture.

You remain in violation of item 2.3.

You seem to have disconnected the thread again, so please see this link that I suspect is the post to which you replied.

No I'm actually not going against God word. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil has always represented God rulership.
At Genesis 3:22 when God said Adam and Eve had become like one of us, God was saying that Adam and Eve(mankind) had decided to choose a self determining course of what they decided was good or evil for mankind.
You said I added to scripture when you said, "for God did not explicitly state that it was "wong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree." No, You think death to be a good thing then? It's explicitly clear that God didn't want Adam to eat from this tree, which means God didn't want Adam to die, so I'm thinking eating from the forbidden tree was a bad thing. It's called reasoning on the scriptures, try it.
You said I added to scripture again when you said, "So, when you wrote "Adam knew that to obey God was good and to disobey God would be bad" you are adding to scripture, and such action by you carries a deadly punishment." First of all, I could care less about your judgments. Next, I don't believe that when God created Adam or Eve he created mindless idiots that didn't have a clue what God was saying to them. When God said to Adam, to name the animals Adam completely understood God. So when God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree Adam knew not to eat from it and he knew it would be a bad thing because death is a bad thing, not a good thing. So to disobey God would be a bad thing. Why would God give a command that was impossible for Adam to understand. Myself, I don't believe God gives mankind commands that is impossible for us to understand. Adam knew to obey God was a good thing and to disobey God was a bad thing, otherwise why would God give commands to his creation if he knew they would not comprehend them.

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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