Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Cooper said:

The child is drawn to the ice cream, but the ice cream does not draw the child. The love of ice cream comes from within.

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I can only share my experience. (Good point of view on your part by the way).

I was drawn to God out of a desperate desire in my being to find peace. I didn’t feel an entity moving me involuntarily. I found God through his word. At that point in my life I hadn’t read the Bible yet. I was eventually set on a different course by continuing to read it.

I had no peace and I couldn’t find it in the world. The peace I had prior was an illusion; a lie. I felt like there was no purpose in living after a grave emotional injury.

Now I have been drinking out of the well of water in the holy scriptures and I have abundant peace and spiritual endurance in trying times.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Praise God!

Ronald Nolette said:

Well in your mind! But He came to seek the lost sheep! Not the goats. and who are the sheep? The ones the Father gave HIm like you and me.

He didn't come to turn goats into sheep or tares into wheat.

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The goats and the tares are the wicked, and that is precisely why Jesus came, so that ALL my follow him.
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Ronald Nolette said:

It should cause us all to weep! but if they are elect they have not perished! YOU seem to forget that as of now Israel is still is under a bill of dovorcement as a nation! The remant are part of teh one new man called the Body of Christ with the saved Gentiles.

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The remnant are in a good place. The rest of Israel who are the majority, rejected Christ, despite God's grace. This is irrefutable evidence of man's freewill. Gods own chosen people reduce Calvin's theory of irresistible grace to ashes.
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Ronald Nolette said:

HUH? I haven't a clue what you are getting at. sorry, but I can be thick as a brick sometimes. Especially when I am responding 25-30 times a day here to people. I can forget a train of thought with someone.

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You seem not to be familiar with Isaiah 45:22 that tells ALL people to TURN to God without exception, meaning nobody is predestined.
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To Calvinists everywhere:

Kermos said:

By the grace of God, I'll stick with the Word of God Who says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7), not your attempt to evade the Word of God that preemptively refutes your posted statement of "God has no part in evil".

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I wrote a Thread for you, so, go here...

Where does evil come from...

justbyfaith said:

@Cooper, are you a believer in Universalism?

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Certainly not. The "Old Time Religion" that John Wesley used to preach is absolutely fine with me.
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justbyfaith said:

Okay. It seemed to me that you were implying a Universalistic understanding on your part.

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I don't know how quoting the Bible in defence of the truth would give that impression.
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justbyfaith said:

It is seen by implication in John 1:12.

If we are regenerated before we can come to Christ, then that verse should say,

"To as many as became the children of God, to them he gave the power to receive Him."

It does not say that. It says the opposite. And the statement is also an illogical statement.

It should be clear that the drawing of us by the Holy Spirit to Christ is not regeneration, also per John 1:12. We receive Him first, and then we have the power to become a child of God. It is not the other way around.

So, the fact that mankind cannot please God if he is in the flesh, means that in order to please God in receiving Christ, he must have an outward force be working on him so that he might be able to be helped to please God where he once had the inability to do so (see 2 Corinthians 6:1-2). This is the halfway point; being drawn to Christ...being helped by Him to make a decision to either receive or reject Christ that is both informed and unhindered by the enemy or the flesh.

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So just show from Scripture any validity of your last paragraph!. Show from Scripture how as a dead spiritual individual who cannot please God and does not perceive the things of God we will turn our nature around by your mythical free will.

And John 1:12 is simply a declaratory statement. It simpy says that whoever receives- has the right! It says nothing of how they receive, what causes them to receive, what process etc.etc. It is simply making a simple statement.

Renniks said:

I never said you believe or think that, I said that's where your theology logically leads. Chill out!

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Wrong again. But then again you respond to me based on your own predispositional bias against the biblical truths I have cited.

Renniks said:

John 1:9, which reads, “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.”

The narrative of Scripture bears witness to a God who calls and pursues persons. He called Adam in the garden while he was hiding from the shame of sin (Gen. 3:9), Abraham out of his father’s house at Haran (Gen. 12:4), and Moses while he was busy tending his flock (Exod. 3:4). Jacob and Israel were chosen to bless the earth because of a promise to Abraham, not because they were significant (Rom. 9)

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 . From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

This is prevenient grace. It reaches to all men, but not all respond positively.

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Exactly what I said, in different words! but you forget the rest of that passage of John 1:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

From John 3:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


and both of these are simple delcaratory statements. They do nothing to show election or free wil. One simply states Jesus is the light for every man! The other simply says that those who love darkness will not come to the light.

If you want to find out more of the whys and hows yo have to look elsewhere. Like Romans 8, romans 9, Ephesians 1, 1 Cor. 2.

Sorry but nice try again!

Cooper said:

The goats and the tares are the wicked, and that is precisely why Jesus came, so that ALL my follow him.
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NO! Jesus HImself said He came to seek and save that which is lost. If you make that absolute then you have two conclusions- He either failed miserably or universalism is true!

Funny but Jesus never called the elect goats, but always referred to tehm as sheep:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

He didn't say: " there are goats out there, I have to turn into sheep."

It becomes easy when we accept the word without extra commentary.

Cooper said:

The remnant are in a good place. The rest of Israel who are the majority, rejected Christ, despite God's grace. This is irrefutable evidence of man's freewill. Gods own chosen people reduce Calvin's theory of irresistible grace to ashes.

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Or more biblically, that unsaved man will always reject jesus! That is what the bible says. What about Ez. 20:

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

No free will here! Just God saying "I will" nothing about God waiting until the Jews say "Okay I agree".

Cooper said:

You seem not to be familiar with Isaiah 45:22 that tells ALL people to TURN to God without exception, meaning nobody is predestined.
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Very familiar with that verse. It is a simply declaratory statement God said. It could be called the "general call" of the gospel or as REnnick said "prevenient grace"

But the same God who said this also told us that the super majority of the world will be lost, that people in darkness will not come to the light, that before Pentecost, Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world!

But as a remionder, this doesn't tell us how one can look to him and be saved, what power inlight of the verses I posted say overcomes their own nature to have them turn to god etc.etc.etc. Other verses let us know the who will look unto the Lord!

Ronald Nolette said:

Wrong again. But then again you respond to me based on your own predispositional bias against the biblical truths I have cited.

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I'm wrong about where I believe your theology logically leads? So what? I should force myself to believe something I don't believe?

Ronald Nolette said:

and both of these are simple delcaratory statements. They do nothing to show election or free wil. One simply states Jesus is the light for every man! The other simply says that those who love darkness will not come to the light.

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You can not pretend Jesus gives light to every man in a theology that says most never receive any light. Loving darkness is a choice. We aren't forced to love darkness. The scripture you quoted indicates that men are to blame for loving darkness. In your theology God gives them no other option.

Ronald Nolette said:

Very familiar with that verse. It is a simply declaratory statement God said. It could be called the "general call" of the gospel or as REnnick said "prevenient grace"

But the same God who said this also told us that the super majority of the world will be lost, that people in darkness will not come to the light, that before Pentecost, Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world!

But as a remionder, this doesn't tell us how one can look to him and be saved, what power inlight of the verses I posted say overcomes their own nature to have them turn to god etc.etc.etc. Other verses let us know the who will look unto the Lord!

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You don't understand what prevenient grace is then. Because it's going out to all. It frees men to respond or to reject the call... that's all on them. It's not irresistible grace.

Behold said:

I wrote a Thread for you, so, go here...

Where does evil come from...

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Well, you said you created a thread for me in your post , so I visited your thread.

The original post that you created directly contradicts the Word of God which God had me proclaim to you in the this thread, so I posted a reply there.

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

That word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

This means that God says that God creates evil. Your opening statement in the other thread contains deceit.