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jaybird
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No, I didn't understand your response.
I asked you a specific question and you failed to answer it, as concerning the words "true" or "false"
Is He a true God or is He a false god?
I don't think you can even answer the whole of the question; because the answer shows the true meaning of John 17:3 if you answer the question rightly.
Let me ask you this: if we believe in Jesus does that bring us everlasting life?
Why?
jaybird
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ok will try again:
all sons of the Most High are gods by definition. so yes, Jesus is a god.
the gods of the heavens are true gods.
Jesus is a true god
Sorry, eeennnnhhhh! the buzzer calls you out as being wrong.
There is only one true God (John 17:3).
Therefore, if Jesus is true then He is the one true God.
But if He is only a god then he is a false god.
The gods of the heavens are not the one true God...they are not to be worshiped...they are false gods as they are individually worshiped.
Jesus is individually worshiped as the one true God (John 9:38, Hebrews 1:6).
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jaybird
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Psalm 82 " I said you are gods"
Sorry bibie but eeeeennnnhhhhhh ( whatever that means?) But according to JBF and his mickey mouse logic you are wrong because there is only one god.
I think someone doesn't understand the difference between Most High and gods.remember at the very beginning I ask for you to explain if you are asking if Jesus is the Most High, but you refused to give that info.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The deity of Christ is certain.
To all those here on this thread....
Do you know why you can go round and round on the topics of the trinity and the one God thing forever?
Do you know how long this debate has been going on here on this forum and in history?
Why are these topic so difficult to understand?
To all those here on this thread....
Do you know why you can go round and round on the topics of the trinity and the one God thing forever?
Do you know how long this debate has been going on here on this forum and in history?
Why are these topic so difficult to understand?
jaybird
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In the old days there wasn't much debate, you either accepted or they burned you alive.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I did explain. You are not accepting the explanation.
For the 10th time, if the plural 'our' is important in GE 1:26, the singular 'me' in the 1C must be even more important, right?
Again, I've answered this question and included a link on how there are not 3 states of matter but 5. For reasons that are all your own, you seem to deny water is matter.
jaybird
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I explained the same thing, angels destroyed sodom but in the end it was the Lord that destroyed sodom. He didn't accept that either. You made another good example with the president cutting tax, implementing a social progrem, etc, it's not him that actually does all that but he is credited for the work of all those executives, advisers, etc.
Side note, what isn't matter in this world? Air, space? Isn't there matter in the space at a molecular level? You ever watch the phisics guy nassim haramein and his theories like infinite information within a bounded system? Much is over my head, I'm just a dumb mechanic, but really interesting.
We are gods in that the Spirit that dwelt in Christ has come to dwell in us in all of His fulness (Ephesians 3:19-20). I believe that angels are the same way.
Jesus is the firstbegotten; and God told all the angels to worship Him.
He is the only one who was born of a virgin and who because of this is by His very nature without sin; because His creation, so to speak, happened through a union of the Holy Ghost to the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary. So, the male side of that zygote is the Holy Ghost. Therefore Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God in the hypostatic union.
For us, it is slightly different. When Jesus died on the Cross, He released His Spirit back to the "Father" in eternity....and 53 days later the Holy Ghost was poured out on the early church, and has dwelt in us ever since. We become one with the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20) not by virtue of our human birth; but by virtue of the fact that we have placed our faith in the Son of God. The infinite Spirit that dwelt in Christ has also come to dwell within us in all of His fulness (again, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20); but not because the male aspect of the zygotes that became each of us was the Holy Ghost. We are not one with God in that way. But our spirit becomes one with His Spirit by virtue of the fact that we have placed our faith in Christ.
All of this to say, what?
That the very Father of eternity, as a Spirit, is who Jesus is in His Spirit and in His flesh. All the fulness of Deity dwells within Him, in bodily form. In essence, He is the Father come in human flesh as the firstborn and firstbegotten.
It is from Him as a source that we even receive the Holy Ghost by faith.
Therefore Jesus is Unique in His Person; His very personality is the very same personality that we find in the Spirit who inhabiteth eternity.
As for us, our personalities are being transformed as our minds are being renewed and as we are becoming more like Christ.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
So I assume you guys do not have a clue....to why this cannot be resolved LOL.
Trinity
First off this is an age old debate...
And you all have done well....get an A for effort.
But no resolution. Not your fault.
The issue is the conundrum in the NT. The incongruency is mostly between statements as opposed to the storyline.
The Church doctrine...as in Roman...had to redefine the concept of one to get away from the Pagan scenario of one god having three aspects. And it solved other problems and answered some nagging questions.
Of course, as pointed out...the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a campaign slogan.
The Bible eventually was modified to support this doctrine. Known as the Johannine comma addition.
But the Bible does indicate that Christ was the creator God...which invalidates the Apostle's Creed. Of course that also implies that Christ existed during the Old Testament. But by the time the NT was written, the OT had already been written and Christ was not a player in the OT. And God the Father several times made it clear He was the only God...no other name.
In the NT...with the one God formula how does this work?
In one instance Christ is asked for a favor that He explains is not His to give.
In another instance talking about the end of time, Christ explains that only His Father know the time when that will occur. Is He keeping secret from Himself?
Christ explains that He does the will of the Father....that is a conundrum in itself. Is He commanding Himself?
When Christ is baptized, God proclaims that He is well pleased with His Son....Is Christ saying that? Is He well pleased with Himself? Did Christ do a ventriloquist trick and throw His voice up in the air to edify Himself? It don't seem likely.
As the NT progresses Christ and the Apostle discuss the Father give various authorities to Christ. How do you give authority to yourself? Didn't you have it to begin with?
God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten self? How can you begot yourself? How can you be a Son to yourself?
God is the one that came up with the designations of Father and Son so we would understand. The one God formula throws everything off. How are we to understand Father and Son as the same person?
There are dozens of MY Father scriptures were Christ is referring to His Father in Heaven.
How many times does Christ have a conversation with His Father...sometimes asking questions...was He talking to Himself?
Christ talks about ascending to His Father and eventually does just that...Does He ascend to Himself?
In the end the one God concept has the Romans nailing the Trinity to the cross. And then who is Christ crying out to on the cross?
Eventually Christ Himself explains the one concept, but no one pays any attention to that.
So I do not hold any of this against you guys or anyone else. But it will never be settled.
I believe in God the Father...Yahweh I believe in God the Son...Yeshua...I believe in God the Holy Spirit whos name has remained secret. I believe they are united, but not as one. Just as individual as we are.
This is the short version, the full explanation is in Grailhunter's Corner.
Grailhunter’s Corner
Trinity
First off this is an age old debate...
And you all have done well....get an A for effort.
But no resolution. Not your fault.
The issue is the conundrum in the NT. The incongruency is mostly between statements as opposed to the storyline.
The Church doctrine...as in Roman...had to redefine the concept of one to get away from the Pagan scenario of one god having three aspects. And it solved other problems and answered some nagging questions.
Of course, as pointed out...the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a campaign slogan.
The Bible eventually was modified to support this doctrine. Known as the Johannine comma addition.
But the Bible does indicate that Christ was the creator God...which invalidates the Apostle's Creed. Of course that also implies that Christ existed during the Old Testament. But by the time the NT was written, the OT had already been written and Christ was not a player in the OT. And God the Father several times made it clear He was the only God...no other name.
In the NT...with the one God formula how does this work?
In one instance Christ is asked for a favor that He explains is not His to give.
In another instance talking about the end of time, Christ explains that only His Father know the time when that will occur. Is He keeping secret from Himself?
Christ explains that He does the will of the Father....that is a conundrum in itself. Is He commanding Himself?
When Christ is baptized, God proclaims that He is well pleased with His Son....Is Christ saying that? Is He well pleased with Himself? Did Christ do a ventriloquist trick and throw His voice up in the air to edify Himself? It don't seem likely.
As the NT progresses Christ and the Apostle discuss the Father give various authorities to Christ. How do you give authority to yourself? Didn't you have it to begin with?
God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten self? How can you begot yourself? How can you be a Son to yourself?
God is the one that came up with the designations of Father and Son so we would understand. The one God formula throws everything off. How are we to understand Father and Son as the same person?
There are dozens of MY Father scriptures were Christ is referring to His Father in Heaven.
How many times does Christ have a conversation with His Father...sometimes asking questions...was He talking to Himself?
Christ talks about ascending to His Father and eventually does just that...Does He ascend to Himself?
In the end the one God concept has the Romans nailing the Trinity to the cross. And then who is Christ crying out to on the cross?
Eventually Christ Himself explains the one concept, but no one pays any attention to that.
So I do not hold any of this against you guys or anyone else. But it will never be settled.
I believe in God the Father...Yahweh I believe in God the Son...Yeshua...I believe in God the Holy Spirit whos name has remained secret. I believe they are united, but not as one. Just as individual as we are.
This is the short version, the full explanation is in Grailhunter's Corner.
Grailhunter’s Corner
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See True Trinity. (posts #1-#6) for the answers to some of these questions that are designed to produce doubt as concerning the doctrine of the Trinity.
jaybird
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However, that is not what the revelation is.
It is that of one God in three Persons.
As for your contention above, see 1 Corinthians 2:14, Isaiah 55:8-9, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29.
jaybird
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ok but you have to understand that to everyone outside the trinity that has not been through the trinity indoctrination process, its three gods.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The history of it is more complicated than most know.
By the time of the Ecumenical Councils Christianity had diversified.
Gnosticism was challenging the other Christian Churches.
There were arguments from various Christian groups on all kinds of topics.
The very nature and substance of Christ was being debated. Was He a prophet, a man, was he half man and half God, was He a God.
How did all this relate to the God of the Old Testament that seemed to be out for the Pagans.
Well by the time of the Ecumenical Councils the Pagan converts...Gentiles...were at the helm of the Church.
Some found Yahweh's attitude towards Pagans offensive....which is one of the reasons that Gnosticism sprang up.
The Romans being Romans, if the Christians could not settle it...they would step in and the Romans had a tendency to pick an alternate alternative just to prove everyone else was wrong and they were right. Not necessarily the right alternative...and Romans being Romans they enforced their rulings upon pain of death.
What this did do was stop the "public arguing" among Churches and groups because, they ruled that if you did not believe the one God formula for the Trinity, you would not go to Heaven and if you argued or preached against their ruling you would be excommunicated and if you voiced your beliefs to loudly you were branded a heretic. Being that, at that point, Christianity was the state religion of Rome, so heretics were considered an enemy of the state and some were killed.
The rulings on the Trinity and the nature and substance of Christ did not stop the beliefs that the one God formula was false, it more less silenced them. But looming over their heads were the memory of the horrors of the Christian persecutions, so they knew what Rome was capable of, and they did not want to go back to that. In fact during the early Councils of Nicaea, some of the Christians and Bishops that were attending came in limping and were missing appendages from the Roman persecutions. Beyond all that, they needed Rome's help with suppressing the Gnostics and the Pagans that still hated the Christians.
I have seen some scholars argue that the one God formula was the right decision at the time for non religious reasons. In light of the fact that the goal of the Romans and the Ecumenical Councils was to unit Christianity as one faith, one Church, just settling the arguments was the top priority. And some suggest that there was some that thought that the one God formula would make the Religion more attractive to the Jews. I am not sure how accurate that is or if it worked at all.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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