Does "the Gifts" List Refer To What Different People Get When They become Christians?

242006 · Dec 11, 2010

Nomad said:
I'm afraid that the one who doesn't understand is you. You really should stop playing with Greek because you don't know what you're talking about. Just because a word doesn't have a Strong's number doesn't mean that it's not implied by the word that comes before it.

The Greek words found in your three examples above are pneumatikon, pneumatika, and pneumaton respectively. The first two are plural adjectives and the last is a plural noun. All three are literally translated 'sprituals.' This is not proper English so a word like 'things,' 'graces,' or 'gifts' must be added in order for the English reader to understand what is meant by the term 'spirituals.' There's even a list of these 'spirituals' in your 1 Cor. 12 example that Paul calls a 'manifestation of the spirit.'

Your strange denial of spiritual gifts just doesn't hold water. You really should leave Greek translation to those who know what they are doing and stop insulting people by telling them they're stupid and have no credibility because you're certainly no one to talk.

What is strange is your continued effort to provide cover for your false religion, which touts non-existent 'spiritual gifts'. Your knowledge of Greek only further proves your lack of knowledge of Bible. You overlook a very important point, which renders your entire argument moot. One first has to determine whether the scriptures in debate are Paul's human writings or are the God-inspired Word of God.

If your position [necessary to add the word 'gifts'] had any merit, then you run into trouble here -

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Paul, under inspiration of God, included the word 'gift' [Greek charisma] as the word 'spiritual' is an adjective in this case. Yet, in 1 Cor. 12:1 and 14:1, Paul, under inspiration of God, did not include the word 'gift' thereafter. If your point is correct, one has to logically conclude that either (1) Paul was not inspired by God as he was neglectful to add the word 'gifts' to 12:1 and 12:14 [the word 'things' in other usages of pneumatikos]; (2) God screwed up and forgot to have Paul write the object to which the adjective pneumatikos describes [absent an object, it could describe anything]; or (3) You are in error as the word 'spiritual' is not an adjective in 12:1 and 14:1.

If you conclude that the scriptures are Paul's human hand and that Paul screwed up by forgetting to write 'gifts' into 12:1 and 14:1, then there would be no basis for making a religion out of any of the Pauline letters as Paul was not inspired of God. Your religion would be, by default, a non-Christian religion as it is premised upon non-inspired works. If so, you would be arguing to delete all Pauline books from the Bible.

If you conclude that Paul was, indeed, inspired of God, then, based upon your reasoning [need to add an object after 'spiritual'], God screwed up by not dictating to Paul what object is being described by the adjective 'spiritual'. Since this appears to be your position, you are inferring that God is a screw-up. Good luck with that!

As for me, I will conclude that Paul was inspired by God and that neither God or Paul screwed-up in 12:1 and 14:1. Surely, since in was within Paul's lexicon to combine the Greek charisma to the Greek pneumatikos when inspired by God to do so in Rom. 1:11, the omission of the Greek charisma in 12:1 and 14:1, while likewise inspired by God, is dispositive that it was not intended to be there by God. It was wholly inappropriate for any man to add an object thereafter the word 'spiritual' if not given in the manuscripts.

Accordingly, it is clear that the third option [you are in error] is the appropriate conclusion.

In both 1 Cor. 12:1 and 14:1, the intent of the manuscripts were for nouns -- not adjectives. In 12:1 the better rendering would have been 'spiritualism'. In 14:1, the better rendering would have been 'spirituality'. In no way, can one conclude that the word is an adjective amiss an object to describe.

Nomad · Dec 11, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
If your position [necessary to add the word 'gifts'] had any merit, then you run into trouble here -

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Paul, under inspiration of God, included the word 'gift' [Greek charisma] as the word 'spiritual' is an adjective in this case. Yet, in 1 Cor. 12:1 and 14:1, Paul, under inspiration of God, did not include the word 'gift' thereafter.

Unlike pneumatikown and pneumatika in 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 respectively, which are plural substantival adjectives, the word pneumatikon is a singular attributive adjective. Unlike substantival adjectives, attributive adjectives will modify a term known as the head noun and hence Paul's use of charisma with pneumatikon. This is not the case with 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1. See next comment.

The only problem here is that you insist on playing with Greek even though you obviously lack even a basic knowledge of Greek grammar.

Watchman_2 said:
(2) God screwed up and forgot to have Paul write the object to which the adjective pneumatikos describes [absent an object, it could describe anything];

The words pneumatikown and pneumatika in 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 are plural substantival adjectives, (literally: 'spirituals'), and do not modify any word because they function as substantives. Because this type of adjective functions substantivally the addition of a word such as 'things' may be required to make sense of the construction is English. See Basics Of Biblical Greek - William D. Mounce, p. 66.

Watchman_2 said:
You are in error as the word 'spiritual' is not an adjective in 12:1 and 14:1.

No it's you who is in error. Pneumatikown and pneumatika are functioning as substantives, but grammatically they are adjectives. If you want to argue this point then show me an interlinear or lexicon that tags them at 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 as anything other than adjectives.

Rach1370 · Dec 11, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
"Hence, as anyone with an iota of intelligence....So, do you have an iota of intelligence or not??You lose the argument each and every time! Most people live in the world of reality. In order to have any credibility, you first should acknowledge that you are in error.If you were wise, you would be thanking me for proving to you that you are currently in a false religion, which touts 'spiritual gifts'. Instead, you live in denial and issue feckless and disparaging remarks. Surely, your actions are that of a scorner of the Word -- not of a Christian."

Lets just imagine that you are correct (which you are not)...what could possibly make me listen to you? You are rude, arrogant and insulting. You try and prove your ideas by disparaging everyone else. It's sooo easy to be right, isn't it, when everyone else is wrong...their churches are wrong, their scholars are wrong, their bible translations are wrong...in fact everyone else is a drooling idiot.
You think I'm a scorner of the Word...not a Christian? How presumptuous! Only God knows that...you show your pretentious nature in that very declaration.
You can insult my intelligence all you want, it only makes you look bad, not me. I am safe in my salvation, despite your opinion, and I pity your narcissistic need to be be right...a need you obviously put before both reason and love for others.

jiggyfly · Dec 12, 2010

BritGuy said:
It says:
"to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues"
(1 Cor. 12:8-10)

If so, how do those Christians without faith, knowledge or discernment manage?

Also, why does Acts say they ALL received the Spirit & spoke in tongues then all grew in knowledge, faith etc?

Your confusing the gift of discerning of spirits with general discernment and the gift of the word of knowledge with knowledge.

242006 · Dec 13, 2010

Nomad said:
Unlike pneumatikown and pneumatika in 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 respectively, which are plural substantival adjectives, the word pneumatikon is a singular attributive adjective. Unlike substantival adjectives, attributive adjectives will modify a term known as the head noun and hence Paul's use of charisma with pneumatikon. This is not the case with 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1. See next comment.

Irrespective of what is plural or singular usage of the word rendered 'spiritual', the simple fact is that it was within Paul's lexicon to combine the plural form of 'spiritual' with the word 'gifts' if inspired by God to do so. You failed to address the inerrancy of scripture issue that I raised in my prior post. When Paul combines the words in Rom. 1:11 and does not make the similar combination in 1Cor. 12:1, 14:1, one has proof, if the Word is inspired by God, that the addition of the word 'gifts' was not only unwarranted, but was wholly inappropriate.

The only problem here is that you insist on playing with Greek even though you obviously lack even a basic knowledge of Greek grammar.

Well, I never claimed to have an education in the Greek language. However, your lack of understanding of Bible far exceeds my lack of understanding of Greek. For, if you are correct in your assertion that 'gifts' was a necessary addition to 1Cor. 12:1, 14:1, God and/or Paul are screw-ups, the Word is errant, and all Pauline books should be removed from the Bible. This, in turn, would make your [false] religion moot as, without the Pauline scriptures, there is no bases for the 'spiritual gifts' religions. Your own position on this topic renders your religion false.

The words pneumatikown and pneumatika in 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 are plural substantival adjectives, (literally: 'spirituals'), and do not modify any word because they function as substantives. Because this type of adjective functions substantivally the addition of a word such as 'things' may be required to make sense of the construction is English. See Basics Of Biblical Greek - William D. Mounce, p. 66.

William D. Mounce was a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary, founded in the 1930's. This seminary is the breeding ground for heretics such as Benny Hinn and Reinhardt Bonhke. It is well-connected to the teaching of 'spiritual gifts'. It is hardly a credible source.

Here is a link -

http://www.angelfire...yer/fuller.html

Notwithstanding Mounce's lack of credibility, his quote does speak to 'function' as the basis of whether the adjective is classified as substantival or attributive.

If there is a representative head noun associated therewith the adjective, the adjective is classified as 'attibutive'. We see this in the following uses:

Rom 1:11 . . . spiritual gift
1Co 10:3 . . . spiritual meat
1Co 10:4 . . . spiritual drink . . . spiritual Rock
1Co 15:44 . . . spiritual body (2)
Eph 1:3 . . . spiritual blessings
Eph 5:19 . . . spiritual songs
Eph 6:12 . . . spiritual wickedness
Col 1:9 . . . spiritual understanding
Col 3:16 . . . spiritual songs
1Pe 2:5 . . . spiritual house . . . spiritual sacrifices

If the adjective does not have a representative head noun associated therewith, the adjective is classified as substantival by default. In such cases, the adjective, itself, acts a mass undefined noun as there is no head noun to modify the adjective. Hence, one can plainly see the dichotomy in the English rendering between 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1 and the remaining substantive uses of this adjective.

Here we see the substantive usage as a mass undefined noun:

Rom 15:27 . . . spiritual things
1Co 2:13 . . . spiritual things . . . spiritual
1Co 2:15 . . . he that is spiritual

Now, given the mass undefined noun application for substantive adjectives, there is absolutely no basis for adding the word 'gifts' in 1Cor. 12:1, 14:1. If the translators were consistent and believed that both instances were substantive, they should have either added the word 'things', which is undefined and unable to modify the adjective, instead of 'gifts', which does, inappropriately, modify the adjective [acts as a head noun] or left it as 'spiritual' alone, as shown in the second use in 1Cor. 2:13.

Clearly, the translators insertion of the head noun 'gifts', in clear violation of Greek protocol, when no similar insertion is made elsewhere in the NT, cannot be overlooked. Surely, the inappropriate insertion of 'gifts' was a byproduct of their religious hack traditions of man passed down through the ages from the RCC. History shows that the early church fathers, in effort to gain supremacy of the religion, enjoined 'spiritual gifts' along with their other false belief in 'apostolic succession'. The Anglican church also believed in apostolic succession, along with 'spiritual gifts', which is reflected in the errant translation in the KJV.

No it's you who is in error. Pneumatikown and pneumatika are functioning as substantives, but grammatically they are adjectives. If you want to argue this point then show me an interlinear or lexicon that tags them at 1 Cor. 12:1 & 14:1 as anything other than adjectives.

Well, a substantive adjective acts as a mass undefined noun. That is what I exactly stated for 1 Cor. 12:1 and 14:1. However, if one deletes the translator-inserted word 'gifts' in 12:1, the adjective 'spiritual' becomes a plural attributive as the plural head noun exists in the word 'brethren'. The scripture should have been rendered -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

242006 · Dec 13, 2010

Rach said:
Watchman_2 said:
"Hence, as anyone with an iota of intelligence....So, do you have an iota of intelligence or not??You lose the argument each and every time! Most people live in the world of reality. In order to have any credibility, you first should acknowledge that you are in error.If you were wise, you would be thanking me for proving to you that you are currently in a false religion, which touts 'spiritual gifts'. Instead, you live in denial and issue feckless and disparaging remarks. Surely, your actions are that of a scorner of the Word -- not of a Christian."

Lets just imagine that you are correct (which you are not)...what could possibly make me listen to you? You are rude, arrogant and insulting. You try and prove your ideas by disparaging everyone else. It's sooo easy to be right, isn't it, when everyone else is wrong...their churches are wrong, their scholars are wrong, their bible translations are wrong...in fact everyone else is a drooling idiot.
You think I'm a scorner of the Word...not a Christian? How presumptuous! Only God knows that...you show your pretentious nature in that very declaration.
You can insult my intelligence all you want, it only makes you look bad, not me. I am safe in my salvation, despite your opinion, and I pity your narcissistic need to be be right...a need you obviously put before both reason and love for others.

I showed you several times how to verify whether any particular word in the KJV is in the Bible manuscripts or not. So, it is not a matter of taking my word for it at all -- you can check yourself. Hence, since you have failed to do your homework and continue to claim that the clause 'spiritual gifts' exists in the manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12, 14 when it is easily verifiably not there, one can only conclude that you simply wish to live in denial of Truth -- be one of the willingly ignorant. I pity those like you who have to save face at all costs -- even by sticking your head in the sand to avoid Bible Truth. Shame on you!

When you actually choose to do your homework and stop acting so foolishly, you can write your apology here for all the viewers to see.

Rach1370 · Dec 13, 2010

I showed you several times how to verify whether any particular word in the KJV is in the Bible manuscripts or not. So, it is not a matter of taking my word for it at all -- you can check yourself

All you have given is your opinion of the interpretations of scripture. You say I can check, and I have, but all that has done is reinforced my beliefs in what I currently hold to be true. Others here have given their opinion as well, and even were I swaying, I'd be inclined to trust them above someone as rude as you.

one can only conclude that you simply wish to live in denial of Truth -- be one of the willingly ignorant. I pity those like you who have to save face at all costs -- even by sticking your head in the sand to avoid Bible Truth. Shame on you!

This is an issue we are free to disagree on, but how can you presume to call me ignorant and stupid? I have looked into this and I simply do not agree with you. I will not even bother to post long details here, as I can see that others have and you are as rude to them as you are to me.
Quite simply I believe you are putting your 'strongs' into the 'infallible' position only the bible should hold. You seem to think that language is such a barrier that only you, your 'strongs' and your KJV can break through. In your arrogance you have dismissed all the multilingual scholars that had a hand in translating the original manuscripts. Don't you think that if all the english bibles were faulty, that someone...perhaps someone who actually speaks Latin, maybe even someone who is fluent in some of the old tongues, might have stood up by now?

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me. I don't have a problem with you preferring the KJV, and how you like to look through your 'strongs'. I do have a problem with you labeling everyone who does disagree with you as stupid and a false Christian. That is stepping into the area of salvation, and only God can make that call.

When you actually choose to do your homework and stop acting so foolishly, you can write your apology here for all the viewers to see.

You want me to apologise to you?? For what? Not taking the verbal bashing more quietly?
You think that because my 'homework' has not taken me down the same path as you that I'm foolish? As I said before, its easy to be right, isn't it, when everyone you have contact with is just wrong. Wrong, and dumb and evil. Well maybe it helps you sleep better at night, but one day you will have to stand before Jesus, and even (I stress even) if He says you were right about the whole 'gifts' thing, you are still going to have to answer for your peremptory and insulting nature.

242006 · Dec 14, 2010

Rach said:
All you have given is your opinion of the interpretations of scripture. You say I can check, and I have, but all that has done is reinforced my beliefs in what I currently hold to be true. Others here have given their opinion as well, and even were I swaying, I'd be inclined to trust them above someone as rude as you.

You are a LIAR!!!

If you had checked the Greek manuscripts, you would know that the clause 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12. It is idiotic of you to claim something that is factual [whether something exists or not] to be 'opinion'.

Rom 11:8

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.

Perhaps, your continued stupidity is the result of the spirit of slumber placed upon you by God.

Rach1370 · Dec 14, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
You are a LIAR!!!

Liar? No. I have checked it out. I freely admitted I am not a linguist. I looked at your Greek text, had it translated into your KJV. It seems to say 'spiritual gifts' to me. Because of my own lack in this general area I then went on to check out what some bible teachers and scholars say about it. This teachers and scholars I admire very much as they stick to what the Bible says...they are spot on in regards to all the salvation issues, which means I can trust them.

Now granted, there are false teachers out there, and I know you claim that any and all that do not think as you do are indeed wolves. This is again where we come to those primary and secondary issues. A false teacher is one who tells us that Jesus is not the only way to the Father, that He was not God, that He did not die and raise to life again. These are salvation issues, they cannot be allowed to shift, even slightly. Everything else, while important in all over doctrine issues, can be freely discussed and disagreed upon by Christians.
You are taking a secondary issue and making war with it. Every single post you make has the same things in them. You claim to know better than everyone, you trample over anyone who dares question your intelligence or knowledge, and whats worse you accuse your brothers and sisters in Christ of not being Christians. Even if spiritual gifts were a salvation issue, how dare you speak to anyone in such a manner?

In your quest to be right you are forgetting Jesus, about what he asks from you. Love, forgiveness, kindness. I do not begrudge you for trying to stand up for what you see as truth, but your manner; your arrogance and just plain rudeness, does not make you a beacon for Christ.

Proverbs 8:13
[sup]13[/sup][sup](A)[/sup] The fear of the LORD is[sup](B)[/sup] hatred of evil.[sup](C)[/sup] Pride and arrogance and the way of evil
and[sup](D)[/sup] perverted speech I hate.

[sup]
Romans 11:18
18[/sup]do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

[sup]
1 Corinthians 13:4
4[/sup][sup](A)[/sup] Love is patient and[sup](B)[/sup] kind; love[sup](C)[/sup] does not envy or boast; it[sup](D)[/sup] is not arrogant

2 Timothy 3:2
[sup]2[/sup]For people will be[sup](A)[/sup] lovers of self,[sup](B)[/sup] lovers of money,[sup](C)[/sup] proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

Perhaps, your continued stupidity is the result of the spirit of slumber placed upon you by God.

Again, you presume to know all about my salvation, my walk and my heart. This is knowledge that only God has. You believe you are right, in fact you believe it with such a passion that you are happy to take it upon yourself to become all....teacher and judge. There is only one who is all of that....Jesus, and as I love Him, and grow in Him day by day, I really don't fear your criticism.

1 Samuel 2:3
[sup]3[/sup]Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

242006 · Dec 14, 2010

Rach said:
Liar? No. I have checked it out. I freely admitted I am not a linguist. I looked at your Greek text, had it translated into your KJV. It seems to say 'spiritual gifts' to me. Because of my own lack in this general area I then went on to check out what some bible teachers and scholars say about it. This teachers and scholars I admire very much as they stick to what the Bible says...they are spot on in regards to all the salvation issues, which means I can trust them.

That's how I know that you are a liar. For, if you checked it out as I showed you, you would know that the clause does not exist in the manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12. It is a matter of fact -- not "it seems". The Greek manuscripts clearly do not include the word 'gifts' in those three scriptures. The translators inappropriately added the word 'gifts' in these scriptures. If you did your due diligence, you would be here apologizing to me and thanking me for educating you.

You don't have to be a linguist to make the determination on your own given the tools available to all of us in the Strong's Concordance word numbering, as well as information readily available on the internet. When you choose to be a Christian ahead of acting the part of a religious hack, you can write your apology here for all to see.

Rach1370 · Dec 15, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
That's how I know that you are a liar. For, if you checked it out as I showed you, you would know that the clause does not exist in the manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12. It is a matter of fact -- not "it seems". The Greek manuscripts clearly do not include the word 'gifts' in those three scriptures. The translators inappropriately added the word 'gifts' in these scriptures. If you did your due diligence, you would be here apologizing to me and thanking me for educating you.

Considering you can't let go of how stupid and uniformed I am; I'll show you what I've found.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Διώκετε τὴν ἀγάπην, ζηλοῦτε δὲ τὰ πνευματικά, μᾶλλον δὲ ἵνα προφητεύητε.

KJV with Strong's
Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts but rather that ye may prophesy

1 Corinthians 12:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Περὶ δὲ τῶν πνευματικῶν, ἀδελφοί, οὐ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν.

KJV with Strong's
Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren I would not have you ignorant

1 Corinthians 14:12 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ἐπεὶ ζηλωταί ἐστε πνευμάτων πρὸς τὴν οἰκοδομὴν τῆς ἐκκλησίας ζητεῖτε ἵνα περισσεύητε.

KJV with Strong's
Even ">so ye forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church

Now, granted there is not a 'number' for the word 'gifts' in these sections, and yet for some reason scholars, who use your beloved Strongs, have still put that word in here. Why could that be?? I'll tell you why. Context....even a 'moron' like me can see what a whole paragraph is saying...in fact anyone can see that taking a single sentence out of context of the whole paragraph is just begging to be wrong. Too many people take a single verse that seems to say what they want it to, ignore the rest and twist the scriptures to their own purpose.
Now, sure the word 'gift' doesn't appear here, but it does appear, in the KJV and in your Strongs.

Romans 12:6 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

ἔχοντες δὲ χαρίσματα κατὰ τὴν χάριν τὴν δοθεῖσαν ἡμῖν διάφορα, εἴτε προφητείαν κατὰ τὴν ἀναλογίαν τῆς πίστεως,

KJV with Strong's
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us whether prophecy let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith

Oh, and lets not forget the passages that you are basing your entire theory on. You say it's not in 1 Cor 12:1...but look just 3 verses down, and what do we see? My goodness, the word 'gifts'.

Greek = χαρισμάτων Transliteration = charismatōn
Strong's = 5486
Morphology = N-GPN
English = of gifts

1 Corinthians 12:4 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Διαιρέσεις δὲ χαρισμάτων εἰσιν, τὸ δὲ αὐτὸ πνεῦμα·

KJV with Strong's
Now there are diversities of gifts but the same Spirit

Clearly the passage is speaking of spiritual gifts...just a few verses further down...

1 Corinthians 12:9 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

ἑτέρῳ πίστις ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ πνεύματι, ἄλλῳ δὲ χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων ἐν τῷ ἑνὶ πνεύματι,

KJV with Strong's
To another faith by the same Spirit __ to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit

And again, in Hebrews we see the author speaks of gifts of the Spirit again....

Hebrews 2:4 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

συνεπιμαρτυροῦντος τοῦ θεοῦ σημείοις τε καὶ τέρασιν καὶ ποικίλαις δυνάμεσιν καὶ πνεύματος ἁγίου μερισμοῖς κατὰ τὴν αὐτοῦ θέλησιν;

KJV with Strong's
God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders and with divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own will

Again we see, in Strong's numbering, that these gifts are given by the Spirit.
You are trying to do "Scripture by numbers" and its ridiculous. Take in tho whole paragraph, what the author is really trying to tell us.

You don't have to be a linguist to make the determination on your own given the tools available to all of us in the Strong's Concordance word numbering, as well as information readily available on the internet. When you choose to be a Christian ahead of acting the part of a religious hack, you can write your apology here for all to see.

You're really big on me giving that apology publicly aren't you? You remind me of someone I knew once...he always had to be right, and right publicly...it was a pride sort of thing. The only sorry you're going to get from me is "sorry, I simply have no need to apologize to someone for their own behavior".

Having shown that I am not lying, and that my findings fit my beliefs, I hope that you will stop calling me "liar" and "religious hack" and "stupid". As I keep saying, its okay for you to disagree with me, but your behavior is appalling. Seriously, I can't quite believe how hard your are harping on and on about this, but whenever I mention Jesus, and how much more important He is than all of this, you slap me aside and call me a 'false Christian.'
It would be so very nice to have you reply..."well, fine, I think you're wrong, but you're free to think that" But no, I know you're next reply will no doubt be full of criticism (despite me doing as you asked) and rudeness. I know that you will accuse me of being wrong, no doubt 'just because'.
Well, here's another sorry...I'm sorry that you are to busy being arrogant and narcissistic to really see the wonder and love of Jesus Christ, without whom you wouldn't have a bible, or a Strong's.

242006 · Dec 15, 2010

Rach said:
Considering you can't let go of how stupid and uniformed I am; I'll show you what I've found.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Διώκετε τὴν ἀγάπην, ζηλοῦτε δὲ τὰ πνευματικά, μᾶλλον δὲ ἵνα προφητεύητε.
KJV with Strong's
Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts but rather that ye may prophesy

1 Corinthians 12:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Περὶ δὲ τῶν πνευματικῶν, ἀδελφοί, οὐ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν.
KJV with Strong's
Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren I would not have you ignorant

1 Corinthians 14:12 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ἐπεὶ ζηλωταί ἐστε πνευμάτων πρὸς τὴν οἰκοδομὴν τῆς ἐκκλησίας ζητεῖτε ἵνα περισσεύητε.
KJV with Strong's
Even ">so ye forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church

I informed you many times that the English word 'gifts' was added by the translators -- was not in the Word of God itself [the manuscripts]. I even showed you how to easily verify it for yourself by way of the Strong's Concordance numbering system and by italics in the KJV. As anyone with an iota of intelligence can see, you did not do your homework at all. Simply posting the Greek and giving the corresponding English rendering, which includes the translator-added word 'gifts', is not proof of anything.

The word 'gifts' [charisma] does exist in 1 Cor. 12:4. This can easily be confirmed by the KJV with Strong's numbering -

1Co 12:4 NowG1161 there areG1526 diversitiesG1243 of gifts,G5486 butG1161 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit.G4151

As one can see, the word 'gifts' has a corresponding Strong's number [G5486] associated therewith, which means that the word actually exists in the Bible manuscripts. By checking Strong's Concordance, one can easily verify that the rendering 'gifts' is, indeed, the 'charisma' -

G5486
χάρισμα
charisma
char'-is-mah

From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift

As one can see, the word 'gifts' in 1Cor. 12:4 is the 'charisma'. Strong's even provides the Greek spelling of the word charisma. So, all one has to do is check the Greek manuscripts that you posted to see if that Greek spelling is contained therein. When you do that, you can see that charisma is not contained at all therein 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12. Thereby, you can confirm the accuracy of the KJV with Strong's numbering -

1Co 12:1 NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152 gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50
1Co 14:1 Follow afterG1377 charity,G26 andG1161 desireG2206 spiritualG4152 gifts, butG1161 ratherG3123 thatG2443 ye may prophesy.G4395
1Co 14:12 EvenG2532 soG3779 ye,G5210 forasmuch asG1893 ye areG2075 zealousG2207 of spiritualG4151 gifts, seekG2212 thatG2443 ye may excelG4052 toG4314 theG3588 edifyingG3619 of theG3588 church.G1577

In each scripture, the word 'gifts' is italicized, which means that the word is not in the Bible manuscripts -- but, was added by unispired translators. There is naturally no Strong's number associated therewith as the word 'gifts' is not in the Bible manuscripts.

Now, granted there is not a 'number' for the word 'gifts' in these sections, and yet for some reason scholars, who use your beloved Strongs, have still put that word in here. Why could that be?? I'll tell you why. Context....even a 'moron' like me can see what a whole paragraph is saying...in fact anyone can see that taking a single sentence out of context of the whole paragraph is just begging to be wrong. Too many people take a single verse that seems to say what they want it to, ignore the rest and twist the scriptures to their own purpose.
Now, sure the word 'gift' doesn't appear here, but it does appear, in the KJV and in your Strongs.

It is impossible to have intelligent discourse with people who cannot debate with facts. I have informed you from the beginning that the word 'gifts' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts; to which, you argued that it did exist. You made disparaging comments and failed to do your own homework. Now that you are starting to realize how wrong you were, what do you do?? You start to argue that the word 'gifts', though not in the manuscripts, belongs therein. You just gloss over the fact that you have been arguing that it did exist in the manuscripts and I have been expecting your apology for all of your pig-headed and disparaging comments.

I agree with your self assessment.

Rach1370 · Dec 15, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
[/left]

I informed you many times that the English word 'gifts' was added by the translators -- was not in the Word of God itself [the manuscripts]. I even showed you how to easily verify it for yourself by way of the Strong's Concordance numbering system and by italics in the KJV. As anyone with an iota of intelligence can see, you did not do your homework at all. Simply posting the Greek and giving the corresponding English rendering, which includes the translator-added word 'gifts', is not proof of anything.
The word 'gifts' [charisma] does exist in 1 Cor. 12:4. This can easily be confirmed by the KJV with Strong's numbering -
1Co 12:4 NowG1161 there areG1526 diversitiesG1243 of gifts,G5486 butG1161 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit.G4151

As one can see, the word 'gifts' has a corresponding Strong's number [G5486] associated therewith, which means that the word actually exists in the Bible manuscripts. By checking Strong's Concordance, one can easily verify that the rendering 'gifts' is, indeed, the 'charisma' -

G5486
χάρισμα
charisma
char'-is-mah

From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift

As one can see, the word 'gifts' in 1Cor. 12:4 is the 'charisma'. Strong's even provides the Greek spelling of the word charisma. So, all one has to do is check the Greek manuscripts that you posted to see if that Greek spelling is contained therein. When you do that, you can see that charisma is not contained at all therein 1 Cor. 12:1, 14:1, and 14:12.

I never said that the word charisma was found in 1 Cor 12:1, but it is found just four verses down, and my point was that Paul is clearly talking of gifts...

[8] For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, [10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
(1 Corinthians 12:8-11 ESV)

The Spirit is clearly giving something to Christians, something...how did you put it?
"a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift"

And lets not forget that in the above passage 'gifts' appear again....clearly a gift that is given by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

ἑτέρῳ πίστις ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ πνεύματι, ἄλλῳ δὲ χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων ἐν τῷ ἑνὶ πνεύματι,

KJV with Strong's
To another faith by the same Spirit __ to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit

Charismata...5486 in Strongs.

You can argue all you want, and continue to name call, but the passage is clearly talking about Spiritual gifts, as is 1 Cor 14:1. Abilities, freely given by the Spirit, for the glory of God and the furtherance of the gospel.

It is impossible to have intelligent discourse with people who cannot debate with facts. I have informed you from the beginning that the word 'gifts' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts; to which, you argued that it did exist. You made disparaging comments and failed to do your own homework. Now that you are starting to realize how wrong you were, what do you do?? You start to argue that the word 'gifts', though not in the manuscripts, belongs therein. You just gloss over the fact that you have been arguing that it did exist in the manuscripts and I have been expecting your apology for all of your pig-headed and disparaging comments.

You know, I don't know if I've come across a more un-Chirst like Christian in all my years....you are indeed something special.
So, here we are. You called me ignorant and a liar. When I showed I had in fact looked into it you just reverted to calling me stupid and evil.
Whatever. I really don't care! I love Jesus and I'm going to spend my life doing that and showing my love and His great love to others.
Have a nice life.

242006 · Dec 16, 2010

Rach said:
I never said that the word charisma was found in 1 Cor 12:1, but it is found just four verses down, and my point was that Paul is clearly talking of gifts...

You are such a LIAR!

I have been telling you that the clause 'spiritual gifts' [both words combined] does not exist in the Bible manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. You have been arguing that it does exist. I have been patiently waiting for you to demonstrate that you are a Christian by acknowledging your gross error, apologizing for all of your disparaging comments, and thanking me for educating you regarding Bible Truth.

I am still waiting . . . .

Or, I might just be correct in labeling you a scorner . . .

Rach1370 · Dec 16, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
You are such a LIAR!
I have been telling you that the clause 'spiritual gifts' [both words combined] does not exist in the Bible manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. You have been arguing that it does exist. I have been patiently waiting for you to demonstrate that you are a Christian by acknowledging your gross error, apologizing for all of your disparaging comments, and thanking me for educating you regarding Bible Truth.
I am still waiting . . . .
Or, I might just be correct in labeling you a scorner . . .

I am not a liar. First, I never claimed to be a scholar. Secondly, when I looked into it I clearly stated (look back at my posts) that while 'gifts' didn't appear in those opening verses, they appeared later in the passage, and that the whole passage is clearly talking about Spiritual gifts. You are trying to build a whole case on one verse. You claim 'Spiritual gifts' is not in the bible...period. ("There is no such concept as 'gifts of [from] the Holy Spirit' in the Bible.")

Lastly, you continuously miss the most important thing I've been trying to encourage you towards. Your mouth betrays your heart...your feelings and intentions. Lets look at some of the things you have said.

You are such a LIAR!

I have been expecting your apology for all of your pig-headed and disparaging comments.

anyone with an iota of intelligence

All christian sects that tout 'spiritual gifts' are corrupt and are false religions.

You have been very clear in that you prefer to believe in the bastardized and corrupt renderings of false religions, at the disdain of the true Word of God.

Since you don't know anything about Bible Truth yourself

It seems to me that you are simply using your own prejudice [indoctrinated brainwashing]

you show your Bible illiteracy as I have repeatedly proven that the Bible manuscripts do not state 'spiritual gifts' anywhere therein

you demonstrate more foolishness regarding your comment about the Trinity. The Apostles, themselves, never stated the word 'Trinity' anywhere in the NT, let alone define it as separate persons. Your error is glaring!

LOL...your foolishness is overwhelming

It is quite ok with me that you choose to be one of the willingly ignorant and live in denial as to Bible Truth. It doesn't bother me one bit.

It is not just 1 Cor. 12:4 that you are brainwashed in. You have assumed that your church is the 'true' Church without doing your homework first. Instead of taking an objective view of Bible Truth, you put the blinders on to anything in opposition to your tradition-of-man church.
If you actually studied the Bible instead of wanting to argue with me due to your hatred of those that speak out against your false religion, you would know that I am correct.

You believe that 'spiritual gifts' is Biblical, when it is not. You might as well claim that the tooth fairy is Biblical too.

Your personal faith and love for Christ, as measured by your own standards and not the Bible's standards, is not relevant to whether you will be ready for the bridegroom or will be the first taken by Satan. Only knowledge will ensure that one makes the first resurrection or not.

You employ a typical tactic of denial in your baseless claim

It is obvious that you are indoctrinated [brainwashed] by your church and unlearned in this topic.

Your failure to acknowledge this fact only proves that you have not done your homework and are simply parroting the religious-hack indoctrination, which you accepted from your so-called 'scholars'.

Regarding the Trinity, see Acts 1:4-5. God could not give us the 'gift' of the Holy Spirit unless God owned the Holy Spirit. The separate, but equal, theory you put forth is pure rubbish. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Spirit

Love for and faith in Christ does not guarantee that all will make the first resurrection.

Irenaeous and Tertullian were Bible hacks.

you have no knowledge regarding this topic

You may have a reading disability. With each succeeding post, you continue to prove your lack of knowledge on this topic.

you are unlearned and have no credibility.

I would surmise that you will be apologizing for your blatant stupidity here.

It is always one's right to be willingly ignorant. You can choose to live in denial of your gross error if you wish.

Surely, even you are intelligent enough to know that you are wrong!

The only remaining question is whether you are Christian enough to acknowledge your error, to apologize for all of your disparaging comments to me, and to thank me for edifying you. If you are too pig-headed and arrogant to do perform your Christian duty here, then all of the viewers will know that you are a scorner of Truth

You are the only one behaving inappropriately. Surely, it is fair of me to state that a person, who claims the existence of something that does not exist, to be acting stupidly. That person just happens to be you!

all the viewers can see your ignorance!!

A serious Christian would want to be in a Christian church -- not a false religion like you. Only you can decide to dump your false religion and to join Christianity.

do you have an iota of intelligence or not??In order to have any credibility, you first should acknowledge that you are in error.

If you were wise, you would be thanking me for proving to you that you are currently in a false religion, which touts 'spiritual gifts'. Instead, you live in denial and issue feckless and disparaging remarks. Surely, your actions are that of a scorner of the Word -- not of a Christian.

When you actually choose to do your homework and stop acting so foolishly, you can write your apology here for all the viewers to see.

Perhaps, your continued stupidity is the result of the spirit of slumber placed upon you by God.

If you did your due diligence, you would be here apologizing to me and thanking me for educating you.

When you choose to be a Christian ahead of acting the part of a religious hack, you can write your apology here for all to see.

it is just that you don't know the Bible! I know that your religion is corrupt, for it is not based upon the Word of God.

You are clueless about 'tongues' -- just as you are clueless about 'spiritual gifts'

dupes like you, who believe such nonsense.

it is you that is clueless.

Since you don't know anything to be true for yourself, why don't you study and find outf??

You sound very foolish

You go on and on. Can't you see the the arrogance, anger and self importance that you are spewing? Can you really believe that's how Jesus wants you to talk to your fellow Christians? Or do you think its okay because we're 'false religious hacks'?
Your heart is in such a dark place, how can you even think someone will listen to you, learn from you? To do so would be to agree to your every thought, or suffer continuous verbal assault. That's not a Christian, its a tyrant.

Luke 6:45 (English Standard Version)
[sup]45[/sup][sup](A)[/sup] The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces[sup](B)[/sup] evil,[sup](C)[/sup] for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

How many times did Jesus tell us that love was so very important, but I have seen nothing of it from you.

1 Corinthians 13:13 (English Standard Version)
[sup]13[/sup]So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

You fight this subject if your life depended on it, as if all your self worth is tied in it. It is not a salvation issue. The whole Bible is about Jesus. Your life should be in Him, your self worth in Him, for salvation only comes through Him.
Its all about Jesus, and in your quest to be right, you're missing Him. Don't!

242006 · Dec 16, 2010

Rach said:
I am not a liar.

Yes -- you are a liar! You still claimed that the clause 'spiritual gifts' was contained in the Bible manuscripts, after I informed you that such clause does not exist. One has absolutely no credibility on this topic without an acknowledgement that such clause does not exist.

Now, you want to gloss over your gross error with a bunch of lame excuses. Why?? You don't want to admit error, apologize to me for all your false disparaging comments, and thank me for educating you.

Rach1370 · Dec 16, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
Yes -- you are a liar! You still claimed that the clause 'spiritual gifts' was contained in the Bible manuscripts, after I informed you that such clause does not exist. One has absolutely no credibility on this topic without an acknowledgement that such clause does not exist.

Now, you want to gloss over your gross error with a bunch of lame excuses. Why?? You don't want to admit error, apologize to me for all your false disparaging comments, and thank me for educating you.

You know, I feel sorry for you.

242006 · Dec 16, 2010

Rach said:
You know, I feel sorry for you.

I pity you. You pop off without doing your homework first. Then, when you are shown to be in error, you can't even acknowledge it.

Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fooll.

Looks like you fall into the 'fool' category.

IanLC · Mar 29, 2011

God blesses all people with "gifts" from Him. These gifts listed here are given to the sainst for the edifing of the body of Christ. What seperates being gifted and being anointed is simply the anointing. God distributes the gifts of the Holy Spirit as He sees fit! Read the parable of the servants! One received 5 and othe others received smaller amounts! Its up to God.

Amazing Grace · Mar 30, 2011

UHCAIan said:
God blesses all people with "gifts" from Him. These gifts listed here are given to the sainst for the edifing of the body of Christ. What seperates being gifted and being anointed is simply the anointing. God distributes the gifts of the Holy Spirit as He sees fit! Read the parable of the servants! One received 5 and othe others received smaller amounts! Its up to God.

This is also how I understand the teaching on gifts Ian.

Unfortunately in these last days there are some people who are faking having these gifts which is such a bad witness to those who come to visit the Churches or Fellowships where this is occurring.

I can understand the Churches that teach that gifts are not for today because with some of ways some people apply their gifts (if they have them in the first place), you can understand why some Christians want to distance themselves from gifts.

I have been taught by Ministers I have sat under that tongues and prophecy have passed away. I'm not convinced because it also says knowledge have passed away as well and so far I haven't seen that happen. I think this is some future time we haven't reached yet. Also it talks about perfection having come and I can't see that yet either.

1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Does "the Gifts" List Refer To What Different People Get When They *become* Christians?

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Does "the Gifts" List Refer To What Different People Get When They become Christians?