Why Do We Not Follow Ot Law?

marksman said:

If you say we don't have to keep the law, you are saying that it is OK to murder.

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No, not "if you say we don't have to keep the law, you are saying that it is OK to murder"! We surpass the righteousness of those who follow the old law when we don't only not murder---but that we don't get angry with our brother.

TexUs said:

So how are you surpassing the righteousness of trimming your beard? LOL
In one breath, above, you call it null and void yet then in this breath say it's not but we surpass it...
You can't surpass something unless it's there to be surpassed.

I agree that Christ surpassed certain laws but this act in itself means obviously, Christ didn't ABOLISH the law, he says so himself in the same sermon in which he surpasses the old law!

Your rhetorical questions to me are I guess what I'm seeking as well... How do we chose which laws to follow and which not to follow?

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Yeah, no beard to worry about to trim or not to trim. hahahahaa But seriously, I've had to deal with other laws---in the New Testament...like to cover my head, or cut my hair. What do you think the do not trim the beard law is about? Do you think it is about not looking like Pagan sinners? Is it about being a people separated unto the Lord, even in the way we look and dress? The New Testament tells us how to dress---modestly, for one. So I guess we obey the new commandment when we dress modestly? And we surpass that law about how to look and dress because we live by the Spirit, and when we live by the Spirit we don't want to get into all the earthly ways the world does when it comes to clothes?

Christ didn't abolish the law he fulfilled it. The law is for law breakers. The law is good if one uses it right, it's for teaching and rebuking. What happens when the New Testament doesn't come straight out and tell us what to do about men's bread's, and other things? Should we then resort to the old law? This is very hard to know, for sure.
Yes...how do we chose which laws to follow and which not to follow. I don't think there is any one who wants to obey God more than I do. I have struggled with this topic, and I will admit, that conversations like this take me out of my comfort zone sometimes. With the dietary laws....there is a special way to prepare the animal after killing it. Are you sure all the meat you eat is kosher? I am a vegetarian for the most part, I do eat meat sometimes, but there would be no problem for me to never eat meat again, or at least not pork and shrimp, etc. Still, I don't know if the meat I do eat was prepared correctly or not. So yeah, how do we know which old laws to follow and which we don't have to. And again, if you believe we have to follow the old laws, yet if you do not follow all of them....then we are sinning. One might say that we don't follow all Jesus' commands in the New Testament and then we sin too anyways. But it is different because we try to do everything Jesus commands in the New Testament, and when we do break a law in the New Testament, we repent and try to not do those sins again. We are working out our salvation. So then, back to the old laws....if we believe we still have to follow the Old Testament Laws, then we are sinning for every law we don't keep.

Oh, and I want to say, the New Testament DOES tell us not to murder. That is not just in the Old Testament.

The Law is not nor has it ever been a methodology for salvation. It is and always has however been a methodology for sanctification.

There were ceremonial laws, civil laws, and dietary laws.

We still practice civil laws today in even our court systems although our court system in America is broken for the most part because of what Liberalism has done to it.

The ceremonial laws Jesus fulfilled. This was the blood sprinklings spatterings and so forth.

The dietary laws although we do not follow them today if we did we would be hundreds of times healthier as a society as a whole.

One other note:

God gave man the law to protect him. It is not for protecting God it is for man.

Sin has consequences. The moment we sin things start to happen and we pay a price for it.

One other note:

God gave man the law to protect him. It is not for protecting God it is for man.

Sin has consequences. The moment we sin things start to happen and we pay a price for it.

Let me just take a stab at your direction... You're saying apart from the 612 laws that Christ re-iterated the law we should be following?

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Your question is a bit confusing but I will have a go. The 612 are not laws they are ordinances. The Hebrew and Greek words for them are different. As we can see from Colossians 2:14 that they have been nailed to the cross.

These two verses show that we are expected to keep his commandments and the Greek shows that he is talking about the 10 commandments which should not surprise us as they are the foundation for holy living. Some people say that they are not in bondage to the law so they can ignore the 10 commandments. Personally I don't find they bring me into bondage. I find that they liberate me because it gives me very clear instructions as to what is expected of me.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

As you can see, keeping the commandments are all about love, not law or bondage

I just don't understand how people just don't get it. The Bible says that the old law is passing away, that it's obselete, because it is the New Covenant (New Testament). We are told that the old law was transitory---not meant to last forever. We are told that we will SURPASS the righteousness of those who follow the old law---if we obey Jesus' commands in the New Testament.

TexUs said:

I don't understand how you don't understand that these terms are not past tense... LOL

There's still got to be some future event in which they are finally made old and obsolete. Christ said it's when the heavens and earth pass away.

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Glad to see you think it is hilarious. Jesus gave two times it would be, one when the heavens and earth pass away. The other is when all is complete. When Jesus died on the cross....he said it was finished. When do you think they are old and obsolete? When sin is no longer here? Wouldn't that be a duh by then? When do you think you surpass the righteousness of those who follow the old law? Maybe when you START TO OBEY JESUS?

TexUs said:

So heaven and earth passed away at the cross?

Hebrews was written after the cross.

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John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

You say "Hebrews was written after the cross." Of course. I guess many old laws passed away when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.? Are there still animal sacrifices for strict Jews today? And, do they still stone people to death in Israel when they commit adultery?

TexUs said:

I'd ordinarily say you'd have an argument (and would honestly prefer this to be true and be the case, as it does seem to fit much easier into my existing theology) save for the fact that "heavens and earth" wording referred to in Matthew 5 are rooted from the Greek words "soil" and "air"... I simply cannot make the argument that he was talking about an "age of the Jews" or "temple".

Nay, I'm not saying that I believe heaven and earth will simply cease to exist but it seems apparent he was referencing some kind of physical change, would you not agree? The heavens and earth AS WE KNOW THEM would change. THEN the law would pass away.



No, but I honestly don't think referencing the erroneous Jewish faith to serve as evidence for anything.

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TexUs, You really don't see two different time frames here?---

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

One time frame is: until heaven and earth disappear. The other time frame: until everything is accomplished.


Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


And we know that the smallest letter, nor the least stroke of a pen disappeared from the Law, right?

See Hebrews 8:13 and Matthew 5:18. So, though possibly very related scriptures....they still don't cancel each other out!

And what do you mean by "erroneous Jewish faith"?! They follow the Torah. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament! Has not many of the laws not become obsolete? Have not many of them not passed away? So, many of the Old Testament laws are about animal sacrifices. So have these laws passed away? Yes. Yes because no one does any animal sacrifices anymore. In the old law it says to put to death an idolator. Do Christians, or Jews put to death idolators? No. So did that law pass away? Yes. Should I go on with more laws that passed away?

TexUs said:

Until heaven and earth disappear.... [THIS] won't happen.
So what won't happen until heaven and earth have disappeared? Everything being accomplished.


"will soon"... It's not past tense.


No, because the fact the Jews don't follow them doesn't mean anything to me.

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TexUs, No words have disappeared from the old law, has it? So why do you keep bringing it up?

And I guess something was finished---when Jesus said "it is finished"?

You said "because the fact the Jews don't follow them [the old law] doesn't mean anything to me." THEN WHAT IS HOLDING YOU UP?!!!! GO MAKE THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES THE LAW SAYS TO!!!! Oh but wait, that law has passed away!!

Now, all I've gotten is a lot of opposition from someone (you) who isn't going to, nor can obey ALL the Old Testament Laws!!!!!!

TexUs said:

I'd ordinarily say you'd have an argument (and would honestly prefer this to be true and be the case, as it does seem to fit much easier into my existing theology) save for the fact that "heavens and earth" wording referred to in Matthew 5 are rooted from the Greek words "soil" and "air"... I simply cannot make the argument that he was talking about an "age of the Jews" or "temple".

Nay, I'm not saying that I believe heaven and earth will simply cease to exist but it seems apparent he was referencing some kind of physical change, would you not agree? The heavens and earth AS WE KNOW THEM would change. THEN the law would pass away.



No, but I honestly don't think referencing the erroneous Jewish faith to serve as evidence for anything.

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I been watching this thread for a while in the begininng I tought you had a point to make but it seems you don't and the flow of it has lead to a catch 22 that Anastacia,is trying to break threw. Completion at the cross is exactly what was said and is just what happened. I was temped to get into this when you mentioned that Satan came before the Lord in Job. You rightly observed that be was cast down but still comes before the throne to accuse. Im going to make this quick you know the scriptures. The first casting down was done by the Father. Lk 10:18 Note; Jesus is the witness. It was Jesus that Satan was coming before in Job. I made my case here that this is Jesus,in the trinity thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Next look at what is said here by Jesus. The ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 12
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

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Where will Satan be cast out of? And who now will do the casting out. The first time the Father cast Him down. But as you noted he still had access to the throne where he asked to sift Job just as Jesus said to Peter, Satin is asking to sift you as wheat. Lk 22:31But that's about to end. The accuser is about to loss his right to come before the Throne.
Now look here, we see Johns testimony. War broke out in Heaven as soon as Jesus rose and took His place. This can not be speaking of any other time Rev 12. If it is still future then the loud voice verse 10 is yet future. I know salvation is NOW, and has been since Jesus rose from the dead.

Revelation 12
[sup]7[/sup] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [sup]8[/sup] but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. [sup]9[/sup] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] Here John is speaking of his brother Apostles. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

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The next time Satin will be removed from the earth. Do you see the progression of Satan's fall? My point Jesus life marks the new beginning not only did the old covenant pass away but when that happened Satan was cast out from before the throne of Jesus. Fist the Father cast him down then..............quote David Ps 110:1 in Heb 1:13 Jesus cast him down, but in that Jesus over came death and brought His creation with Him, He made the way by which those He loved could come home. Now what does that leave left to be finished? Certainly not the law by which we can never be justified by. Romans 3:19-20. If you wish to place yourself under the law by all means do so. The keeping of the law is always pleasing to God. But I and my house chose to walk in the power and law of the Spirit. Romans 8:1-2

A loud VOICE John 12:28-29
A LOUD VOICE Rev 12:10
I HOPE YOU HERE A LOUD VOICE> God Bless

bud02 said:

I been watching this thread for a while in the begininng I tought you had a point to make but it seems you don't and the flow of it has lead to a catch 22 that Anastacia,is trying to break threw. Completion at the cross is exactly what was said and is just what happened. I was temped to get into this when you mentioned that Satan came before the Lord in Job. You rightly observed that be was cast down but still comes before the throne to accuse. Im going to make this quick you know the scriptures. The first casting down was done by the Father. Lk 10:18 Note; Jesus is the witness. It was Jesus that Satan was coming before in Job. I made my case here that this is Jesus,in the trinity thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Next look at what is said here by Jesus. The ruler of this world will be cast out.




Where will Satan be cast out of? And who now will do the casting out. The first time the Father cast Him down. But as you noted he still had access to the throne where he asked to sift Job just as Jesus said to Peter, Satin is asking to sift you as wheat. Lk 22:31But that's about to end. The accuser is about to loss his right to come before the Throne.
Now look here, we see Johns testimony. War broke out in Heaven as soon as Jesus rose and took His place. This can not be speaking of any other time Rev 12. If it is still future then the loud voice verse 10 is yet future. I know salvation is NOW, and has been since Jesus rose from the dead.




The next time Satin will be removed from the earth. Do you see the progression of Satan's fall? My point Jesus life marks the new beginning not only did the old covenant pass away but when that happened Satan was cast out from before the throne of Jesus. Fist the Father cast him down then..............quote David Ps 110:1 in Heb 1:13 Jesus cast him down, but in that Jesus over came death and brought His creation with Him, He made the way by which those He loved could come home. Now what does that leave left to be finished? Certainly not the law by which we can never be justified by. Romans 3:19-20. If you wish to place yourself under the law by all means do so. The keeping of the law is always pleasing to God. But I and my house chose to walk in the power and law of the Spirit. Romans 8:1-2

A loud VOICE John 12:28-29
A LOUD VOICE Rev 12:10
I HOPE YOU HERE A LOUD VOICE> God Bless

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This seems like a great revelation! I must study this more.

TexUs said:

IMO your argument is flawed a bit, you may be right but here's my objection to it. If truly "no man" (original Greek of John 1) has seen the father, then Adam, Noah, and Enoch are certainly men. You cannot pick and choose who falls into this category. I also wouldn't consider Satan a man.
I also don't know of what consequence this point has on anything who it was in heaven?

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I never said that they seen the Father I said they seen Jesus. Read what I posted earlier in the thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Who or where did I say Satin was a man?

RE: John 12.
You cannot possibly believe Satan was cast out of this world.
Just one example is 2 Cor 11... Paul references Satan as an angel of light and warns people of him, this is AFTER Christ spoke these words, so it's impossible he was cast out then. The text refers to the victory at the cross, not the literal abolishing of Satan, that's the only conclusion to arrive at that I see taking all Biblical context into affect.

I also don't see "lose his right to come before the throne" supported anywhere at all here.

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I don't know how your getting this concept from what I posted. First I never said that Satan was thrown out of the world. I said he was thrown out of heaven please reread my post.
I said the next step was he will be cast from the earth "yet future". In the first account the Father cast him from before himself. At the resurrection Jesus had him cast from heaven. now his only abode is the earth see Rev 12:12 woe to the earth. Hes here right now. But if we are now saved threw grace he is no longer accusing us before the thrown. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Why because of Jesus completed work on the cross.

You are either:
A) Picking and choosing from Revelation that which is future, that which is past, to suit your argument of the day, which flies in staunch opposition to Rev 1:19, the clear ordering of the letter.

Take all of Revelation as past

Which is it???? I'm curious what your view is if you even consider this as past?

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Now I don't understand your question at all.
[sup]rev 1:19[/sup] Write[sup][i][/sup] the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

It seems you are basing this on being past on your (in my opinion, flawed) presupposition that Satan has already been eliminated from heaven which I do not think to be the case. I do not believe that so to me, this passage is infinitely easier to deal with. I have absolutely no issues considering this a future text.

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If its a future text your still waiting for salvation then. [sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Your still waiting for salvation, strength, and the kingdom of our God then? Rev 12 is broken into 3 parts from Johns view 2000 years ago. the past 1-6 including a complete over view of the whole chapter. verse 7-12 what had taken place after the resurrection. See here in verse [sup]5[/sup] She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. [sup]6[/sup] Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Red is detailed in verses 7-12 green is detailed in verses 13-17 verses 1-6 are history leading up to Christ. My outline in the first post was Satans fall, thrown down by the Father, second thrown out of Heaven by Jesus. The next step yet future is for him Satan to be removed from the earth. Pretty darn simple if you ask me. But people don't study for themselves they believe what people teach them. their to busy, they want the drive threw service on sunday and their done.

Now I believe the 70th week of Danial happened right after the 69th. But because of Darby 90% of Christians are waiting for it to be fulfilled yet in the future. Thats a topic in itself.And thats what you were taught everything from rev chapter 4 forward is for those left behind. Or If your a non rapturest it will happen in a 3.5 year future period, or a 7 year future period.

If Satan was not removed from before the throne then who is Jesus speaking about here.

John 12
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

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Was he talking about Cesar or the Pharisees? Who is the ruler of this world? and where was he throne out of? Satan and he was thrown out of heaven because of Jesus victory.
Hes still in the world but hes not accusing us before the throne in heaven any longer. If this stuff has not happened then were living a lie.