Discerning : The Water Cults

Philip James said:

Dear Charlie,

Then it should be easy to answer, no?



Mischievous? No.. Leading? Certainly..

Peace!

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So why play games, can't you make your points from scripture without "leading" as you call it?

Behold said:

I totally agree with what you wrote.

1.) Born of water = your mother's water BREAKS, and out you come, = 1st birth.

next..
"You must be BORN AGAIN...""

See, you are already BORN, = BY YOUR MOTHER.....= THE WATER BREAKS = born of WATER.... into this world.

NOW, you must be """""born again""""""= by GOD.
See it?
Do you see it yet?

BORN AGAIN = SPIRITUAL Birth. = THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES THIS.....not the city water supply as your Catholic Bible falsely teaches.

Notice....

You just said......"born again OF water and Spirit...
The "cult of the virgin's demonic bible says....."Born again BY= Water".

Do you see the change?

You stated the correct understanding as found in the Greek.
Your water cult changes this in their LATIN BIBLE to "born again BY= WATER.".. "by water"......"born again by the water"....."the water causes it"...."by WATER"
See that water cult doctrine of Devil's. ????

God sees it.

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One cant be born again by amniotic water if they were already born by amniotic water. So to be born again by water HAS TO BE a different water.

Can’t you see it? God sees it.

Eternally Grateful said:

1. You can't offend me, If you think you can, Stop puffing yourself up. Your church does not even offend me, It does not have that power. I do not protest your church, I do not even consider it a church. Does that offend you? Not that it matters,, I could care one way or the other. Thats not my purpose here. My purpose is to have conversations about the word of God
2. when you tell me that, You show me there is no need to even try to discuss anything with you anymore. Because in the end, that is what you answer will be. You can not discuss the word with people who think they have the truth no matter what,

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Huh?? I wasn’t trying to offend you sooooo not sure where that came from.

There is only ONE Church with ONE truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth....just like Scripture says. The key words you said were “people who THINK they have the truth”. So I agree with you. It is hard to have a discussion with people who THINK they have the truth. People don’t have the truth. The Church has the truth.

Charlie24 said:

You know where it's at! But again, it's not for the reasons you state!

Wish we could get along and not argue like this, but there's no way around it.

But don't take it personal from me, I assure you it's not meant that way!

We just disagree on one of the most important issues in scripture!

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Good morning Charlie.

How do you twist a question from me into an argument with you? I’m not arguing with you. I asked you to show me the passage from Scripture that backs up your assertion that Jesus said baptism must be public. You didn’t do that which means it isn’t there. If you would have given me a passage that you think confirms your belief and I disagreed with you we would have an argument. You presented nothing so there is nothing to argue about or disagree about.

Marymog said:

Good morning Charlie.

How do you twist a question from me into an argument with you? I’m not arguing with you. I asked you to show me the passage from Scripture that backs up your assertion that Jesus said baptism must be public. You didn’t do that which means it isn’t there. If you would have given me a passage that you think confirms your belief and I disagreed with you we would have an argument. You presented nothing so there is nothing to argue about or disagree about.

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We certainly disagree on many things, no doubt about that! The many things we disagree on can become a heated argument or can be a controlled argument, I was telling you ahead of time I prefer the latter.

As far as water baptism being public, it's a ceremony where the church members are invited to attend, is it not?

There is nothing private about it, is there? It's not found in scripture it's just a no brainer, wouldn't you think?

Behold said:

I didnt teach that, and Jesus does not say that..

You can't be honest?

Let me give you another opportunity.

Have you any kids?
Are you aware that they were born?

How many births is that?
Did your water break?
Were you asleep, and missed it?

So, that is one birth, by water, as Jesus says...

Now, that one can't save you.
So, you must be BORN AGAIN.

THIS BIRTH, IS THE 2ND, and its SPIRITUAL.

A 5 yr old can understand this.
What is your problem?

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Well, I don’t have a problem kiddo. Actually I do. It’s your condescending, degrading and hurtful tone. But that isn’t really my problem, it is yours, since it shows the type of person you are To other people: condescending, degrading and hurtful

Your theory makes no sense. If the 2nd birth is Spiritual, which I agree it is since that passage says we are to be born again of water AND Spirit, Why did you leave out the water? Jesus didn’t say we must be born of water and THEN Spirit. He said we must be born of water AND Spirit.

Also, this teaching (born of water and Spirit = getting water baptized and the Spirit descends upon you) has been the teaching of Christianity for 2,000 years. So according to your condescending and degrading remarks not only is Marymog not as smart as a 5 year old or honest and have a problem with understanding this passage but for the last 2,000 years every Christian that adheres to the born again = baptism teaching is not as smart as a 5 year old, honest and has a problem.

I sincerely hope you can change your tone. If we were friends, going to the same church and hanging around with each other I would avoid you and tell other people how degrading and hurtful you are. But I get it. It’s easy for you to be that way since we are just typing words on a computer. Anonymity Does effect some people negatively. Makes them meaner then they really are. Has anonymity done that to you Behold?

Charlie24 said:

We certainly disagree on many things, no doubt about that! The many things we disagree on can become a heated argument or can be a controlled argument, I was telling you ahead of time I prefer the latter.

As far as water baptism being public, it's a ceremony where the church members are invited to attend, is it not?

There is nothing private about it, is there? It's not found in scripture it's just a no brainer, wouldn't you think?

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Thanks Charlie. I am not sure what we disagree on. To the best of my memory this is the first time I have discussed anything with you. But my memory may be wrong and I will never claim to be perfect.

I agree with you! In this modern world baptism has become a public event where church members, family and friends are invited to attend. That happened with my daughter in law. I can’t find anywhere in Scripture that same thing happening. The Ethiopian Enoch jumped out of the chariot as soon as he saw water and asked to be baptized. No one was invited. The jailer got his family together and just did it. No one invited. When 3,000 were added to the Church they did it right after hearing the word. They didn’t plan for a future baptism where all their family and friends and public could be invited.

I agree with you. Jesus did not command that baptism had to be public. “It’s not found in scripture.”. So you see. We are not arguing. We agree with each other.

Mary

Behold said:

I was eventually water baptized., 11 yrs after i was born again by God's Holy Spirit.
Did you try that yet?

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Did I try to be born again by the Spirit and then years later become water baptized? Ummmmm......no. My Church believes what Scripture says. When one is properly baptized via the trinitarian method the Spirit descends upon them in that baptism. Just like what happened to Jesus. Just like what happened in Acts 2 when 3,000 were baptized. You know what I mean. I was born again the Bible way: I was baptized and received the Holy Spirit. I feel bad that you weren’t.

Behold said:

I totally agree with what you wrote.

1.) Born of water = your mother's water BREAKS, and out you come, = 1st birth.

next..
"You must be BORN AGAIN...""

See, you are already BORN, = BY YOUR MOTHER.....= THE WATER BREAKS = born of WATER.... into this world.

NOW, you must be """""born again""""""= by GOD.
See it?
Do you see it yet?

BORN AGAIN = SPIRITUAL Birth. = THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES THIS.....not the city water supply as your Catholic Bible falsely teaches.

Notice....

You just said......"born again OF water and Spirit...
The "cult of the virgin's demonic bible says....."Born again BY= Water".

Do you see the change?

You stated the correct understanding as found in the Greek.
Your water cult changes this in their LATIN BIBLE to "born again BY= WATER.".. "by water"......"born again by the water"....."the water causes it"...."by WATER"
See that water cult doctrine of Devil's. ????

God sees it.

Click to expand...

Dear behold. Here is the sequence of events in John:

John 1:31-34: Jesus was baptized. This was BEFORE his discourse with Nicdemus.

John 3:22: Immediately after Jesus’ “born again” discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? “… Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea and baptized.”

John 4:1-2: Jesus’ disciples then begin to baptize at Jesus’ command.

But what you have been taught By some man is that in the middle of all that, in the discourse with Nicodemus, John didn’t mean water and Spirit = baptism? He meant water to = birth water? Even though every other passage in John water is associated to baptism!!! Hmmmmm....Who taught you that?

Do you know of any passages in John where John does equate birth to something other than water? (Hint, John 3:6). Sooooo why would he change that equation change all of sudden in the born again of water discourse??? What you have been taught makes no sense to this girl and what the Church has taught for 2,000 years makes sense to me.

So why do you belong to the anti-water cult that teaches opposite of Scripture?

Philip James said:

Indeed the works of 'the law' will avail one nothing. They have been fulfilled in Christ. Why go back to shadows?

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yet you go to NT shadows and treat them as if they are different.

How did OT believers get saved apart from their sacraments? Since they had none of your?

An interesting metaphor, but it works..

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you mean pipeline? I have heard many of Catholic use this saying. So there you go

As I said, the sacraments are Jesus' work, not ours... No one can baptise themselves..

But works of charity, now, those we do indeed need to do..

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.


Peace!

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The law was of God, (actually christ himself gave it to moses)

OT works

NT works

you claim one saves the other does not, there is something wrong with this thinking

Marymog said:

Huh?? I wasn’t trying to offend you sooooo not sure where that came from.

There is only ONE Church with ONE truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth....just like Scripture says. The key words you said were “people who THINK they have the truth”. So I agree with you. It is hard to have a discussion with people who THINK they have the truth. People don’t have the truth. The Church has the truth.

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Yep there is only one church

and that church holds to the true foundation and gospel of Christ.

not the pagan church who like many before attempts to be like it but looks nothing like it

Behold said:

Why was Jesus baptized?
You think it was because he needed to be born again?
Is that right? Like all the unbelieving Jews in Acts 2?
Do you see what you are believing about Jesus that your water cult has deceived you to believe?

Jesus was baptized because He had to totally fulfill the LAW.
Jesus had to fulfill all the "law", and live a sinless LIFE, or His sacrifice of Himself as the blood atonement, would not have succeeded.

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Hey behold. We agree on something. He was baptized because he had to fulfill the Law. Wanna know why else he was baptized?

The baptism of Jesus gave the first example that we are to follow. For if Jesus humbled himself then we all the more need to humble ourselves. We are to be like him and do what he says to do. What did he say to do Behold? Baptize all nations in the name of the....Well, you know the rest.

Not sure why you went on that rant. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about WHICH IS one must be born again thru WATER and Spirit. What descended from the sky when Jesus came up out of the water Behold? What gift do we receive when we are water baptized behold? See how it all connects?

The law does not require baptism

so Jesus was not baptized to fulfill the law

Behold said:

Jesus was not born again when John the Baptist, baptized Him.

Listen.,
To be born again, you have to be a SINNER in need of Salvation.
So, you just taught that Jesus was a sinner, and needed to be born again.

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Dear dear behold,

Read what I wrote instead of what you THINK I wrote and stop partially quoting me. It makes you look petty.

Here is, in context, what I said of which you PARTIALLY QUOTED: When one is properly baptized via the trinitarian method the Spirit descends upon them in that baptism. Just like what happened to Jesus.

Does that sentence have the words “born again” in it? Nope, it doesn’t. So why are you trying to argue with me about something I didn’t say??? Hmmmmmmm....??

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo what I CLEARLY said is true and what I CLEARLY said was that the Spirit descends upon us (or we receive the gift of the Spirit) when we are baptized. JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS.

If you knew Scripture you would KNOW that is what happened to Jesus when he was water baptized: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Bible Study Mary

Behold said:

Here is an update for you.
Continue to call a grown man "kiddo", and i'll continue to allow you to feel your feelings.

Do you hear me?

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Kiddo is an enduring term when it comes from me but I will respect your wishes.

What I don’t have respect for is people who don’t take responsibility for their hurtful, condescending and degrading words. And when they are called out on it, like i did to you, they go on the attack instead of apologizing. But that, once again, shows what type of person you are. Of which I am beginning not to like.

Here is an update for you. I have a lot of grace and I will probably continue to ignore your unchristian like behavior. However, He wont ignore it.

If you are a grown man, act like one.

Eternally Grateful said:

yet you go to NT shadows and treat them as if they are different

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And here we have the crux of our disagreement.

The Sacraments are not shadows, they are the real deal.
So every 2000 year old apostolic community witnesses...

Show me the 2000 year old church that deals in shadows!

Peace be with you!