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Eternally Grateful

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And here we have the crux of our disagreement.

The Sacraments are not shadows, they are the real deal.
So every 2000 year old apostolic community witnesses...

Show me the 2000 year old church that deals in shadows!

Peace be with you!
Your right

I treat all works equal.

I asked you once can you answer. How was the OT people saved without sacraments?
 

Philip James

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Your right

I treat all works equal.

I asked you once can you answer. How was the OT people saved without sacraments?

ahhh questions, questions from you but no answers... ok one more..

Though I say to the virtuous man that he shall surely live, if he then presumes on his virtue and does wrong, none of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered; because of the wrong he has done, he shall die.


And though I say to the wicked man that he shall surely die, if he turns away from his sin and does what is right and just,


giving back pledges, restoring stolen goods, living by the statutes that bring life, and doing no wrong, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


None of the sins he committed shall be held against him; he has done what is right and just, he shall surely live.


Peace!
 

Eternally Grateful

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ahhh questions, questions from you but no answers... ok one more..

Though I say to the virtuous man that he shall surely live, if he then presumes on his virtue and does wrong, none of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered; because of the wrong he has done, he shall die.


And though I say to the wicked man that he shall surely die, if he turns away from his sin and does what is right and just,


giving back pledges, restoring stolen goods, living by the statutes that bring life, and doing no wrong, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


None of the sins he committed shall be held against him; he has done what is right and just, he shall surely live.


Peace!
So it is harder for you to get to heaven than him? How is that?
 

theefaith

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Jn 3:5

kjv
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Douay-Rheims
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
American standard
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
New American standard
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
NIV
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

All version have the same connection!

AND

WATER AND THE SPIRIT

NONE have only by the spirit so this op is false and a lie, I would recommend a close reading of the Commandments
Especially thou shalt not bear false witness!
 

theefaith

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Be very nice if you could explain John 3 after this verse

Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

and baptized!

and baptized!

and baptized!

disciples made by baptism!

matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jn 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

members of the church
Baptism is the initiation into the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

washes away sin? He said

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

More about baptism To follow
 

theefaith

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Faith and baptism

Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved

The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!

It is Reasonable that if they reject faith why bother mentioning the second requirement?

Acts 8
Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch!

Obviously Philip preached “FACAGA”
Faith alone Christ alone grace alone

How did the eunuch know about baptism?

Why did the eunuch so greatly desire baptism?
(If it’s only symbolic, an outward sign)

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
 

theefaith

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Old Testament pre-figures of baptism.

Psalm 36:9
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Song of Solomon 4:15
A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations;

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

1 pet 3:20-21

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

New Testament

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)

John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Saved by baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

theefaith

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Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Gal 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
 

theefaith

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God says baptism! Ez 36:25:27
Jesus Christ says baptism! Mk 16:16
Peter says baptism! Acts 3:38 1 Pet 3:21
Paul say baptism! 1 cor 1:16 1 cor 12:13
The apostles say baptism! Acts 2:38 acts 8:35
Augustine says Baptism!
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

blood bought say NOT baptism!

who you gonna believe
 

Marymog

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I joined it 40 years ago when I came to
Christ. The HS himself baptized me into it
Praise God. To whom do you go to fulfill Matthew 18:17?

Never mind. You don’t have to answer. We will just get into one big circle of a discussion of you just assuring me you are right and I am wrong and I will in turn assure you that i am right and you are wrong.

I think you and I have been thru this before. To the best of my memory your church is every Christian that is a true follower of Christ (which makes it impossible to fulfill that passage) or you go to your local church and I go to mine and Joe goes to his to fulfill it and we all just do what our local church tells us to do even though each church may have a different “truth”. I think, to the best of my memory, your belief is the former, not the later.

Mary
 

Marymog

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What created the water cults.?
......
Lol behold,

Men who denied the ancient teaching of The Church and thought The Church needed to be reformed created the water cult. Don’t you know your own Christian history?

They denied what had always been taught, the necessity of water baptism, and in a derogatory way started calling anyone or any church that adhered to the ancient teaching of Christianity a water cult.

Quoating ancient writings, from Scripture forward, I can show you how long it has been taught. Can you provide ancient evidence for your belief? I already know you can’t and I am going to make a prediction: You won’t when you respond to me.

Keeping it real...Mary
 
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Charlie24

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Lol behold,

Men who denied the ancient teaching of The Church and thought The Church needed to be reformed created the water cult. Don’t you know your own Christian history?

They denied what had always been taught, the necessity of water baptism, and in a derogatory way started calling anyone or any church that adhered to the ancient teaching of Christianity a water cult.

Quoating ancient writings, from Scripture forward, I can show you how long it has been taught. Can you provide ancient evidence for your belief? I already know you can’t and I am going to make a prediction: You won’t when you respond to me.

Keeping it real...Mary

As I remember it Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg Germany, with the caption, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

Which the so-called Church was not doing!
 

amigo de christo

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Because one receives the Holy Spirit when one is baptised, of course.

Peace!
I actually received the baptism of the Holy Ghost before i was water baptized . But oh yes i sure did get water baptized .
IF JESUS said to do we do . I keep it real simple . If JESUS taught to do something just do it
and if He taught not to do we do not do . And later the apostels would expound on it . We keep those doctrines on our heart .
It was the house of cornelius that also recieved the baptism of the SPIRIT . But notice
peter made sure they also got water baptized . Its like i love to say , IF JESUS SAID TO DO WE DO . Praise the glorious KING .
Be not hearers only , deceiving your own selves . Lambs are hearers and doers of the Word .
 

theefaith

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As I remember it Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg Germany, with the caption, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

Which the so-called Church was not doing!

luther declares the sole authority is the Bible therefore he declare himself to be no authority on anything in any way whatsoever!
besides this Christ builds the church Matt 16:18 on the apostles eph 2:20 luther is no apostles
 

Eternally Grateful

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Praise God. To whom do you go to fulfill Matthew 18:17?

I think you and I have been thru this before.
Mary
Yes we have, that’s why I tell you I really have no desire to go through it again, you gonna always say your church is the only truth church and I have my private interpretation, hence it will never lead to fruitful discussion

as for matt 18, we have had to bring people up to the church a few times, and even had to ask a few to leave and do not come back until they confess whatever sin we have been having an issue with that got us to that point in the discipline process, as scripture states, so please do not tell me I can not fulfill that part of scripture.

if you read the book of acts and see these churches, yu will find really no local church truely resembles that church, they met in homes not expensive buildings, they ate together learned together fellowship led together and prayed together often, not just on Sunday or Saturday.
 
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