A Question About The Death and Resurrection of Christ

When someone stands in your stead to defend you without being asked because you didn't know how to ask and weren't capable of asking it says something about the character of that person. Does anyone know of anyone who would do that??

'While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly' Romans 5:8

The word 'character' and name are synonymous in scripture. To believe in the name is to believe in the character......and the character we are speaking of is demonstrated in Jesus.

Don't let the weight of this escape you.

justbyfaith said:

The word that is written in the kjv is "destroyed" (Romans 6:6 (kjv))...

You may disagree because you probably hold a different translation of the holy scriptures to be inspired over and above the kjv.

I hold the kjv to be inspired over and above your translation.

So, I suppose that this places us at an impasse.

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Charlie24 said:

I use nothing but the KJV!

Romans 6:12 would not be there if the sin nature was destroyed in vs.6.

I'm finished with this, if you want to argue it further, argue with someone who doesn't know any better!

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I have no idea what you two are talking about but (I probably would not agree with justbyfaith) in reading Romans 6 in a modern translation, it answers the question in the other thread about Christians who do not consider Jesus God in the flesh.


4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through this baptism into death so that just as God the Father, in all His glory, resurrected the Anointed One, we, too, might walk confidently out of the grave into a new life.
Romans 6:4 (Voice)

God resurrected Jesus. This is language confirming Jesus is not God.

justbyfaith said:

Romans 6:12 is for those who have not yet received the second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15).

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LOL, it can be whatever you want it to be jbf. We have come to accept that fact!

Wrangler said:

I have no idea what you two are talking about but (I probably would not agree with justbyfaith) in reading Romans 6 in a modern translation, it answers the question in the other thread about Christians who do not consider Jesus God in the flesh.


4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through this baptism into death so that just as God the Father, in all His glory, resurrected the Anointed One, we, too, might walk confidently out of the grave into a new life.
Romans 6:4 (Voice)

God resurrected Jesus. This is language confirming Jesus is not God.

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I don't think I have been in that discussion. But I certainly do believe Jesus is God, scripture plainly says He is.

But to address who raised Jesus from the dead, the scripture says that God did it, another scripture says the Holy Spirit did it, and yet another scripture where Jesus Himself said He could raise Himself from the the dead.

I can't remember the verses off the top of my head but I know they are there and can find them if you like.

What it points to is that "GOD" raised Christ from the dead, the Triune God of scripture.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they all had a hand in raising the Christ from the dead.

It's beyond our understanding, at least mine!

Charlie24 said:

It's beyond our understanding, at least mine!

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Contradictions do not exist, in reality. It's not hard to understand an invalid concept when encountered.

Charlie24 said:

But I certainly do believe Jesus is God, scripture plainly says He is.

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Scripture plainly says there is only one God, Jesus's God - and it says this over and over and over again.

17 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17 (NLT

The resurrected Jesus has yet to ascend to his God, in his unitarian nature. There is no 3rd person. The Apostles said this over and over and over again.

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2 (NLT)

Here is a way I try to understand the relationship between Jesus and the Father...

Using our body and it's organs as an illustration....Jesus is the heart of God

Jesus has always been with God....revealing God to us in a way we can relate to....flesh and blood ie, sweating, speaking, listening, trudging our streets, touching....even dying.....all those things we as people identify with.

We can understand God through other ways also, like through his Creation but Jesus is the definitive factor of how God is Thus Jesus says, when the Spirit comes he will reveal me.

Do we hear his witness?

Wrangler said:

Contradictions do not exist, in reality. It's not hard to understand an invalid concept when encountered.



Scripture plainly says there is only one God, Jesus's God - and it says this over and over and over again.

17 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17 (NLT

The resurrected Jesus has yet to ascend to his God, in his unitarian nature. There is no 3rd person. The Apostles said this over and over and over again.

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2 (NLT)

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The problem as I see it is that you think you understand, but you don't! Not a single person who has ever lived on earth can explain the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, other than Christ that is.

It can't be understood in detail because it's not given to us in scripture, everything you read or hear on this subject is conjecture!

But there are some things given that give us an idea of what the relationship might be.

God said in the Old testament that "there is only one God, there is no other god besides me, I know not of any." Paul tells us there is only one God. But John takes it a step further and tells us there is one God, manifest in three persons. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. These three are One.

Now we know there are three distinct persons that make up the essence of God.

So when God and Paul were referring to God, they were referring to what we call the "Trinity," the three distinct persons that make the Triune God.

It's just pure ignorance for anyone to say that Jesus Christ is not God, there has to be an agenda behind that statement. No one who loves God and believes scripture can deny that Jesus is God, it's to obvious that He is.

In scripture God the Father calls the Son, Oh God! How much proof does one need?

Charlie24 said:

NO, jbf! You are Wrong!

The sin nature is not destroyed, it is rendered ineffective. You are misunderstanding what Paul is saying.

After saying this, he says in 6:12, "let not sin (sin nature) therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey the lusts thereof."

Do you see, the sin nature is still there just waiting for you to fail.

"Destroy" as you interpret is not doing away with, it is rendering ineffective.

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Very good analysis...the sin nature remains there FOR US TO FIGHT AGAINST because we can live 50 years serving Jesus with all our heart and all someone has to do is cut us off on the way home from work, and immediately the old man of sin wants to resurrect and give the other driver what for LOL

We will always be fighting against him, I believe, until the Lord has fully perfected our characters so that our only tendencies are that of our Lord.

April_Rose said:

I think that I'm understanding this right but a lot of people wonder why if Jesus rose again after His death then what was the point of Him dying on the cross for our sins in the first place if He didn't stay dead,.. I think it was the act of Him dying that we were able to gain our salvation and it didn't have anything to do with His death itself. Am I understanding it right? Or is there something else I'm missing?

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The resurrection is the one thing that sets Christianity apart from all other religions. Jesus was not the founder of a religion; He was and is Emmanuel (God with us). If He only died, He would have been a mere mortal like so many other religious leaders. Now that He is alive and living, He is the mediator between God and man, and He is the high priest who brought the sacrifice for sins once and for all. Yes, His death was important, but even more so is His resurrection. This is how we know that one day we will resurrect to be with Him. His resurrection is our hope for eternal life. Until then, we have died to our own selves, and we live this new life by faith in the one who loved us and gave himself as a ransom for us.

Wrangler said:

God resurrected Jesus. This is language confirming Jesus is not God.

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Jesus resurrected Jesus (John 2:19-21, John 10:17-18).

Charlie24 said:

The problem as I see it is that you think you understand, but you don't! Not a single person who has ever lived on earth can explain the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, other than Christ that is.

It can't be understood in detail because it's not given to us in scripture, everything you read or hear on this subject is conjecture!

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It can be understood if you read the holy scriptures with the doctrine of the Trinity on the backburner and meditate on the verses that relate to it. Or, you can read out of my thread on the Trinity; and, understand this,

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6)

Charlie24 said:

So when God and Paul were referring to God, they were referring to what we call the "Trinity," the three distinct persons that make the Triune God.

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When God and Paul were referring to God, they were referring to the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6).

That is who God is: the Father.

And in saying this I am not denying that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God.

Charlie24 said:

LOL, it can be whatever you want it to be jbf. We have come to accept that fact!

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I do not read my Bible looking for things to tickle my ears, trying to find things that will suit my fancy.

I read it looking for God's absolute truth.

I would also consider your statement to be something of an ad hominem attack.

April_Rose said:

Sure,.. my question wasn't why His death was necessary, my question was how was He able to pay for our punishment with His death if He just rose again anyways? After all, since He took our place if it had been us we couldn't have rose again we would just get the eternal death period. Does that make more sense?

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First of all, you are right; His death was necessary to pay for the sins of the world, but think about what would have happened had He not risen. To start with, the Jews to this day do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and are still waiting for Him to come. However, they are waiting to see an end to the strife caused by their enemies. Jesus came to bring peace with God; if this peace would be achieved worldwide, then everything else would be different. The sacrifices that God required and had to be repeated pointed to the fact that it would be too much for people to pay on their own what only God could do through Jesus. The death of Jesus was enough to pay for the sins of the whole world and is the solution to restoring our relationship with God. The resurrection of Jesus does not undo that but rather gives us hope that where He is we will be one day. If in the garden of Eden death came into the world, the death and resurrection of Jesus brought the hope of restoring what was lost there: the access to the tree of life.

justbyfaith said:

Jesus resurrected Jesus (John 2:19-21, John 10:17-18).

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You do not discern figurative language when you see it. "The temple" is not the temple. Trinitarians desperately rely on word play to support their non-Biblical doctrine.

justbyfaith said:

It can be understood if you read the holy scriptures with the doctrine of the Trinity on the backburner

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The trinity is not in the Bible.

justbyfaith said:

When God and Paul were referring to God, they were referring to the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6).

That is who God is: the Father.

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Agreed. God is the Father. The only God is Jesus' God.

Jesus: 17 Mary, you cannot hold Me. I must rise above this world to be with My Father, who is also your Father; My God, who is also your God. Go tell this to all My brothers.
John 20:17 (Voice)

justbyfaith said:

And in saying this I am not denying that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God.

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You are denying God the Father when you say this, violating the 1C. No where in the Bible does it say God, the Son or God, the Holy Spirit.

Phoneman777 said:

Very good analysis...the sin nature remains there FOR US TO FIGHT AGAINST because we can live 50 years serving Jesus with all our heart and all someone has to do is cut us off on the way home from work, and immediately the old man of sin wants to resurrect and give the other driver what for LOL

We will always be fighting against him, I believe, until the Lord has fully perfected our characters so that our only tendencies are that of our Lord.

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Good word Phone,
If our sin nature (the human side of us, of course) were gone, then why Ephesians 6? Why walk in the Spirit so as not to sin if their IS no sin nature. Sin is a parasite and we will be fighting sin at all times with our spiritual weapons...no need for them if we are sinless.
BTW-I've come a long, long way with the driving thing No more speeding to the next red light , no more flipping the bird and cursing at jerks...Now I pull over slowly and let them pass, or just ignore them. The ones that get me more than ever are the ones going below the limit in the passing lane of big highways

DNB said:

You've been indoctrinated, probably at a very young age, therefore, you fail to see the utter absurdities in your logic that you continue to espouse, and the incompetence in your exegesis that you constantly apply.

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Wrangler said:

You do not discern figurative language when you see it. "The temple" is not the temple. Trinitarians desperately rely on word play to support their non-Biblical doctrine.

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Clearly, when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up", He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Wrangler said:

The trinity is not in the Bible.

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The doctrine of the Trinity is definitely in the Bible.

That you don't see it or find it means that you are what is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

Wrangler said:

Agreed. God is the Father. The only God is Jesus' God.

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Heb 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9, Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

I'd be interested in seeing again how your cult deals with this scripture.

justbyfaith said:

Clearly, when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up", He was speaking of the temple of His body.

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That's not true. It was not clear at all. Still, the point is not clarity but non-literal use of language.

justbyfaith said:

The doctrine of the Trinity is definitely in the Bible.

That you don't see it or find it means that you are what is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

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The trinity is not in the Bible. A Dr Seuss spoof could be done here. Not the word. Not the idea. Not the doctrine. The entirety of the Bible is written by Jews who reject the trinity. This is how you know any verse you rely on is not properly interpreted if you think it supports anything but unitarian/monotheism as Jews today still hold.

As one observer noted, Jesus was born a Jew and there is no evidence he ever stopped being Jewish.

Wrangler said:

That's not true. It was not clear at all.

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It is very clear (see John 2:21)...a plain statement, in fact.