Understanding The Trinity ???
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Of course he was alive first in heaven. This is why he wasn't created on earth... He was given a meatbag of bones is all, on earth. What defines the human but the sole God creates. Jesus was placed into a beat bag with his already-existing "soul", so to speak... God did not create an additional, new, soul for Christ.
You believe Jesus was alive first in heaven, but that he was given a body on earth. That's what I believe. Now you say here "He was given a meatbag of bones is all, on earth" so do you believe God gave him the body here on earth? If you say yes, then do you believe that God gave Jesus a spiritual body in heaven first? Note: Spiritual body meaning a body that isn't like a human body to where it decays and dies, nor flesh and blood....a spiritual body, yet not only a spirit.
Ahhh so you're treading into waters that in my opinion don't have any Scriptural backing but we're just left with speculation.
The same could also be asked of the Father... Does he have a spiritual body or is he just a spirit?
I don't think one has evidence one way or the other so I really don't think it matters... But go ahead and present your argument one way or the other now that I know what you're heading for.
As long as I've been on this site, and as long as I've been debating the Catholics, and you can really say I'd believe in anything without scriptural back up? That's just unbelieveable, to say the least.
I don't know what you mean about "the same could also be asked of the Father." The Bible tells us what God looks like.
I said "in my opinion". You're welcome to post up your thoughts on the matter but I don't see anywhere that speaks of this.
Is he a "spiritual body" or a "spiritual spirit"???? And, do we even know if there's a difference? Does it even matter if there's a difference?
Whether you see it or not, it is in the scriptures.
And I don't know what you mean by "is he a spiritual body or a spiritual spirt?" The Bible says what God looks like. And yes, to answer your question "if there is a difference." We have a spirit living inside us, and when we are resurrected with a new body, it will be a spiritual body.
Bud02, thank you for inviting me to look at this thread. I have it marked and will keep returning to it to ponder it until such time as the spirit in me moves me to comment.
I believe that we must carefully select what we choose to talk about on the basis of its importance to helping others avail themslves to God's grace in Christ Jesus for salvation. And I see the NT Bible writers set the example for us in that. Paul and James and Peter, all three gave us counsel on paying attention to talk about the more important things in Christ pertaining to salvation.
Some subjects (while perhaps we do have a better understanding of them) turn out to be more harmful to the cause of Christ than for the good.
I speak on Israel because Paul saw it important to address: (Titus 1:10- 11) "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake."
We however find no debate in the NT concerning whether Jesus was God himself or merely the Son of God, the perfect reflection of his Father's glory. The NT focuses on his being the light of God shined into a sin darkened world.
When we debate subjects that are not directly related to helping others to salvation in Christ, we run the risk of creating in them an unwillingness to listen to us when we turn to discuss the things that are.
A careful combing of the NT shows that this understanding is love's way and a must if we are to handle the word of God rightly.
I believe that we must carefully select what we choose to talk about on the basis of its importance to helping others avail themslves to God's grace in Christ Jesus for salvation. And I see the NT Bible writers set the example for us in that. Paul and James and Peter, all three gave us counsel on paying attention to talk about the more important things in Christ pertaining to salvation.
Some subjects (while perhaps we do have a better understanding of them) turn out to be more harmful to the cause of Christ than for the good.
I speak on Israel because Paul saw it important to address: (Titus 1:10- 11) "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake."
We however find no debate in the NT concerning whether Jesus was God himself or merely the Son of God, the perfect reflection of his Father's glory. The NT focuses on his being the light of God shined into a sin darkened world.
When we debate subjects that are not directly related to helping others to salvation in Christ, we run the risk of creating in them an unwillingness to listen to us when we turn to discuss the things that are.
A careful combing of the NT shows that this understanding is love's way and a must if we are to handle the word of God rightly.
I should add, please don't anyone on this thread think I am saying this about them: "... teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." (Titus 1:11)
If we per chance learned what we have come to believe from one that was doing that, then that was his or her motive while our motive becomes merely to unselfishly share what we firmly believe.
And if the man that taught us was sincere in his faith and not doing that, then perhaps he learned from one that was.
That can go back like a chain reaching back quite some distance.
It is how false belief is subtly passed. Not all are insincere who have versions of the gospel that are less than true. I would in fact venture that many if not most, are not insincere. But sincerity and truth are two different things. What ultimately proves one meek is that they are willing to listen and learn when they are mistaken. And that is most usually not easy.
The fine soil that the seed of truth is sown in is our hearts. The roots of the tare that grew next to us entangle themselves into that furtile soil in our heart. That is how the tares bind up the wheat so that it is not safe to pull the tares out of the wheat until the wheat is matured and ready to be harvested.
You see? If the heart is where the furtile soil is and that is where the wheats roots are also. And in reall life the darnel weed's (tares) roots do wrap themselves around the wheats roots. And the roots of the darnel weed is stronger than the roots of whaet in real life.
That is why we need be very tender and careful when helping others learn.
If we per chance learned what we have come to believe from one that was doing that, then that was his or her motive while our motive becomes merely to unselfishly share what we firmly believe.
And if the man that taught us was sincere in his faith and not doing that, then perhaps he learned from one that was.
That can go back like a chain reaching back quite some distance.
It is how false belief is subtly passed. Not all are insincere who have versions of the gospel that are less than true. I would in fact venture that many if not most, are not insincere. But sincerity and truth are two different things. What ultimately proves one meek is that they are willing to listen and learn when they are mistaken. And that is most usually not easy.
The fine soil that the seed of truth is sown in is our hearts. The roots of the tare that grew next to us entangle themselves into that furtile soil in our heart. That is how the tares bind up the wheat so that it is not safe to pull the tares out of the wheat until the wheat is matured and ready to be harvested.
You see? If the heart is where the furtile soil is and that is where the wheats roots are also. And in reall life the darnel weed's (tares) roots do wrap themselves around the wheats roots. And the roots of the darnel weed is stronger than the roots of whaet in real life.
That is why we need be very tender and careful when helping others learn.
Have you prayed and asked God for understanding concerning this? Have you done research on the concept to find out when it began and who gave it to man? Have you researched to find if any other religions have the same concept?
And finally....have you read in God's word how Jesus describes exactly how He, the Father and ALL that believe in the true and living God are ALL ONE?
It's all in God's word.
And it has NOTHING to do with (3) entities being of the same substance, different dispensations, or similar to how water, ice and gas is, or any other crazy idea like that!
Jesus tells us....and He is right to the point. So simple a child can understand!
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Today I do feel moved to speak. LOL !!!
Having fathered 6 children and some 15 grandchildren, I have well noted how children see the simplest things as a mystery. They do not understand much and therefore many things are a mystery to them.
Paul spoke of the mysteries of God. And of course there are things concerning God that will always remain a mystery to us, at least insofar as we can tell with our present knowledge. One of those things is the exact composition of God. We are in no way equipped (at least at this time) to understand his exact composition. And the Trinity in no way explains it.
When we search the word "mysteries" we find:
Jesus said, (Matthew 13:11) "... it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Jesus also said, (Luke 8:10) "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."
Paul said, (1 Corinthians 4:1) "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." (1 Corinthians 13:2) (1 Corinthians 14:2)
So what we find in searching the word "mysteries" applies not to our understanding God's composition, but to our understanding the operation of God's kingdom.
What happens when we search the word "mystery" to see what we find?
Jesus again shows that the mystery is concerning the operation of the kingdom of God: (Mark 4:11) "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables."
And all other occurrences refer in some way to the mystery involving the kingdom of God (most of which are spoken about by Paul, and four times mentioned by John in the book of Revelation).
But we are like children due to not yet having understanding of all we need to understand. We are somewhat gullible and easy to be misled due to that lack of understanding, just as children are. And we have grown up in a society that loves a good mystery so much so they invent mysteries to entertain themselves with. Mysteries are used like drugs by Hollywood so that people will become addicted to their movies.
And in the past certain unscrupulous men have also tried to sell God to the public that way, by twisting the mysteries the Bible speaks of to mean more than they do. You see, these men were spiritually dry, and having no real understanding of the mysteries of God's kingdom, but yet desiring to be teachers, they had to invent their own mysteries.
For now I will pause there and give you time to ponder this.
Having fathered 6 children and some 15 grandchildren, I have well noted how children see the simplest things as a mystery. They do not understand much and therefore many things are a mystery to them.
Paul spoke of the mysteries of God. And of course there are things concerning God that will always remain a mystery to us, at least insofar as we can tell with our present knowledge. One of those things is the exact composition of God. We are in no way equipped (at least at this time) to understand his exact composition. And the Trinity in no way explains it.
When we search the word "mysteries" we find:
Jesus said, (Matthew 13:11) "... it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Jesus also said, (Luke 8:10) "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."
Paul said, (1 Corinthians 4:1) "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." (1 Corinthians 13:2) (1 Corinthians 14:2)
So what we find in searching the word "mysteries" applies not to our understanding God's composition, but to our understanding the operation of God's kingdom.
What happens when we search the word "mystery" to see what we find?
Jesus again shows that the mystery is concerning the operation of the kingdom of God: (Mark 4:11) "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables."
And all other occurrences refer in some way to the mystery involving the kingdom of God (most of which are spoken about by Paul, and four times mentioned by John in the book of Revelation).
But we are like children due to not yet having understanding of all we need to understand. We are somewhat gullible and easy to be misled due to that lack of understanding, just as children are. And we have grown up in a society that loves a good mystery so much so they invent mysteries to entertain themselves with. Mysteries are used like drugs by Hollywood so that people will become addicted to their movies.
And in the past certain unscrupulous men have also tried to sell God to the public that way, by twisting the mysteries the Bible speaks of to mean more than they do. You see, these men were spiritually dry, and having no real understanding of the mysteries of God's kingdom, but yet desiring to be teachers, they had to invent their own mysteries.
For now I will pause there and give you time to ponder this.
After you have finished pondering post #91, let us begin to look for the proper way to reason together.
Men having mingled their own mysteries into the mysteries of God within the fertile soil of our hearts, how do we now go about untangling them so that we might see men's inventions and eliminate them out of our hearts?
The importance of this subject is in the fact that men today cast hate at one another based on whether they believe Jesus is God as well as the Son of God, or just the Son of God. If we cannot resolve in our hearts which of those two choices he is, then at least resolve that hate. Many on both sides spew hateful words of condemnation toward their brothers, saying, "If you do not believe Jesus is God you will burn in hell", or saying, "Because you believe Jesus is God you will burn in hell". Of course some who do not believe in eternal torment by a literal hell fire simply say that the other will be condemned to eternal death. I cannot believe that our loving God looks well upon either side for this childish conduct.
Lets first seek to find what we are able to agree upon in scripture.
We can all agree that Jesus is referred to as himself directly saying he was "the Son of God". Matthew 27:43 "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."
We can all agree that the tempter (Satan the devil) saw him as "the Son of God": Matthew 4:3 "And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." - Matthew 4:6 "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
We can all agree that the demons saw Jesus as "the Son of God": Matthew 8:29 "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
We can all agree that Jesus disciples saw Jesus' ability to perform great miracles as being because he is "the Son of God": Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."
We can all agree that the affect upon the Roman Centurions seeing the earthquake and other miraculous things while attending Jesus' death, concluded that it the stories they had heard about Jesus being "the Son of God" must be true: Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
We should all be able to agree (if we cast away our childishness) that whenever the scriptures tell us that, "If you do not believe you will die in your sins", it is referring to not believing the following: John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
We should also all be able to agree that Jesus himself said that the Jews persecuted him, not because he said he was God, but because he said he was "the Son of God"" John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
And we should all understand that a good Son is equated even by us as equal to his father.
Ponder this much and tell me, have we established a base here upon which we can all agree?
I am not asking this of those that go beyond the Bible into the works of men touting it as proof. 2 Timothy 3:16- 17 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
To go beyond the Bible is only increases one's chances of being misled. We can use extraneous material to help understand parts of scripture but not in such a way that gives that extraneous material domination over the Bible.
Men having mingled their own mysteries into the mysteries of God within the fertile soil of our hearts, how do we now go about untangling them so that we might see men's inventions and eliminate them out of our hearts?
The importance of this subject is in the fact that men today cast hate at one another based on whether they believe Jesus is God as well as the Son of God, or just the Son of God. If we cannot resolve in our hearts which of those two choices he is, then at least resolve that hate. Many on both sides spew hateful words of condemnation toward their brothers, saying, "If you do not believe Jesus is God you will burn in hell", or saying, "Because you believe Jesus is God you will burn in hell". Of course some who do not believe in eternal torment by a literal hell fire simply say that the other will be condemned to eternal death. I cannot believe that our loving God looks well upon either side for this childish conduct.
Lets first seek to find what we are able to agree upon in scripture.
We can all agree that Jesus is referred to as himself directly saying he was "the Son of God". Matthew 27:43 "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."
We can all agree that the tempter (Satan the devil) saw him as "the Son of God": Matthew 4:3 "And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." - Matthew 4:6 "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
We can all agree that the demons saw Jesus as "the Son of God": Matthew 8:29 "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
We can all agree that Jesus disciples saw Jesus' ability to perform great miracles as being because he is "the Son of God": Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."
We can all agree that the affect upon the Roman Centurions seeing the earthquake and other miraculous things while attending Jesus' death, concluded that it the stories they had heard about Jesus being "the Son of God" must be true: Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
We should all be able to agree (if we cast away our childishness) that whenever the scriptures tell us that, "If you do not believe you will die in your sins", it is referring to not believing the following: John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
We should also all be able to agree that Jesus himself said that the Jews persecuted him, not because he said he was God, but because he said he was "the Son of God"" John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
And we should all understand that a good Son is equated even by us as equal to his father.
Ponder this much and tell me, have we established a base here upon which we can all agree?
I am not asking this of those that go beyond the Bible into the works of men touting it as proof. 2 Timothy 3:16- 17 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
To go beyond the Bible is only increases one's chances of being misled. We can use extraneous material to help understand parts of scripture but not in such a way that gives that extraneous material domination over the Bible.
Have you read this? Posted by Eccl 12:13
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13202-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-1/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13201-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-2/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13200-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-3/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
I couldn't get the verse links to display in post #1 for him, nor do I support Eccl 12:13 in all that he says.
But the C/P he posted is overwhelming evidence that Jesus is the only God men have ever heard or seen in both the new and old testaments.
The same conclusion Anastacia and myself came to by using different verses isn't the word of God active and sharper than a double edged sword?
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13202-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-1/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13201-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-2/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13200-who-is-the-real-god-of-the-ot-part-3/page__view__getnewpost__fromsearch__1
I couldn't get the verse links to display in post #1 for him, nor do I support Eccl 12:13 in all that he says.
But the C/P he posted is overwhelming evidence that Jesus is the only God men have ever heard or seen in both the new and old testaments.
The same conclusion Anastacia and myself came to by using different verses isn't the word of God active and sharper than a double edged sword?
I viewed those three posts and find that they present nothing new to me more than things I have previously mused over and used the scriptures to answer.
I understand why Eccl. 12:13's reasoning seems logical to him or her, but I also see where he or she falls short in his or her depth of perspective.
His or her view does not concern me so much. I ascribe to what the apostle John said: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
My faith tells me that God does not expect us to understand everything at this present time. But he does expect us to learn and understand certain necessary things. And I view those that muse openly about unnecessary things as having subtle pride in their own intelligence with which they lead men's attention away from those more important things pertaining to salvation that God wants us to focus on at this time.
These sorts of people are trying to appear more mature than the saintliest of saints who did not see fit to wrangle the ideas they do.
I am editing to add this thought: The Law was said to produce a bondage for us as it could only amplify sin and call out for our death. People who go beyond the simplicity of the gospel of grace cause many others to think it is necessary for all to have their understandings. That then causes many to focus toward the wrong things and as a result to miss seeing many of the necessary things. Thus such is an evil bondage. At least the bondage the Law heaped on us served a righteous purpose. The bondage to the pursuit of knowledge that these subtly proud ones produce to us has no righteous purpose.
1 Corinthians 13:8 ¶Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
IMO its that kind of thinking that has lead to the whole of dispensationalisum and anti semitism, the SWP the KKK and many others.
Now you can continue to live in the vacuum of history that stretches from Moses written word to Rev. That is all well and good simply because it is the manifestation of God who in all things have been brought into being threw. This thread is and was about the trinity, Which lead to the discussion about who was God in the OT. By Jesus words alone we cane see that the Father has at no time spoken or manifest Himself to mankind. John 5:37 John 1:18 John 6:46 That begs the question, who was it in the OT that both appeared to Abraham and Moses? Next was this " persona " active from Adam to the flood? and from Noah to Abraham? or did He just mysteriously appear one day to Abraham? IMO and experience, People that have no faith or have not been born of the Spirit need answers to such questions. Do you suppose that Paul or Danial were ignorant of history or for that matter what the future would hold? I very much doubt it, In fact Danial knew very well the arts and practitioners of Babylon, where is it do you suppose the wise men came from? the first to come and acknowledge the Christ? They certainly knew the time of there visitation unlike the Jews.
I must respectfully disagree with you Bud02.
It is the delving into such things that caused most of the dissension Paul had to deal with in his first letter to the Corinthian Church. That very thing is what was leading them to reverence certain ones among them for their supposed intelligence. And that kow-it-all attitude on the part of men is the source of the pride from which comes the things you named.
The literal direct translation of 1 Corinthians 4:6 in the Greek text says only: "And these things brethren I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes that ye might learn in us not to think above that which is written that no one be puffed up for one against another."
Pride due to men's worship of their own intellectual capabilities has always been the number one reason for perversion.
All we need concerning the manner in which God spoke is to know this: Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard;
4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were afterward to be spoken;
6 but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.
7 ¶Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith, To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried me by proving me, And saw my works forty years.
Emotionalism is not pretty bud02. I speak not to hurt your feelings and what I have said is what Paul also said: Philippians 4:7-8 "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
We do not want to be one of these men: 1 Timothy 6:4 "he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,"
That is why when it come to teaching Paul told Timothy's selection of help teaching in the congregation: 1 Timothy 3:6 "not a novice, lest being puffed up he fall into the condemnation of the devil."
For this reason also: James 3:1 "Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment."
Whose definition will you use of what Biblical concepts are necessary and unnecessary? Paul told Timothy ALL Scripture is useful.
Even in the heavily debated end-times argument, John starts Revelation off saying people should be blessed for reading, hearing, and keeping it.
The Apostles did not take such a light view of Biblical topics.
Even in the heavily debated end-times argument, John starts Revelation off saying people should be blessed for reading, hearing, and keeping it.
The Apostles did not take such a light view of Biblical topics.
It would seem that you in an indirect manner are pointing to me as one of these.
Pride due to men's worship of their own intellectual capabilities has always been the number one reason for perversion.
I would ask you whether in this thread of the other or any of my post to show me the evidence.
You also avoided the question about the wise men.
My Quote;
Do you suppose that Paul or Danial were ignorant of history or for that matter what the future would hold? I very much doubt it, In fact Danial knew very well the arts and practitioners of Babylon, where is it do you suppose the wise men came from? the first to come and acknowledge the Christ? They certainly knew the time of there visitation unlike the Jews.
Here in acts during the 2 years Paul spent in Asia he preformed many miracles yet only one is recorded. Do you propose to imply that If its not in scripture its not of God? Were the miricals of no value if preformed today simply because there is no recorded record of that kind of miracle?
Acts 19:10-12
Or here just who is it Paul is referring to here?
Romans 1
[sup]18[/sup] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [sup]19[/sup] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [sup]20[/sup] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [sup]21[/sup] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [sup]22[/sup] Professing to be wise, they became fools, [sup]23[/sup] and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
[sup]24[/sup] Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, [sup]25[/sup] who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[sup]26[/sup] For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. [sup]27[/sup] Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
[sup]28[/sup] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [sup]29[/sup] being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[sup][c][/sup] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [sup]30[/sup] backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [sup]31[/sup] undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[sup][d][/sup] unmerciful; [sup]32[/sup] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Like I said who is Paul referring to here? Its very clear he is speaking from the beginning "creation" His "Gods" attributes are clearly seen. That tells me that God has been active in mens lives from the very dawn of creation. But the pulpit of most churches attribute all things prior to Abraham / Moses writings as of the devil. Paul says something different doesn't he. I believe that is why Paul was chosen and most sussesful at his commision from the Lord to take the message of Christ to the kings of the gentils. Acts 9:15
Paul was educated to highest standerd of the time, yet he accounted it all rubbish in light of Christ, But yet IMO it empowered him to understand the entire message of God from the very dawn of creation thus being able to reason in the understanding of the ancient ways, so he also knew the Torah extensively, thus being able to reason and introduce them to the fulfillment of the ancient ways and the errors of the Jewish leaders, leading them both into the fulfillment in JESUS.
This is Paul's opening statement in the letter to the Romans, he kicks it off with, For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [sup]21[/sup] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
He is speaking or rather addressing the very epicenter of every pagan religion on earth.
Pride due to men's worship of their own intellectual capabilities has always been the number one reason for perversion.
I would ask you whether in this thread of the other or any of my post to show me the evidence.
You also avoided the question about the wise men.
My Quote;
Do you suppose that Paul or Danial were ignorant of history or for that matter what the future would hold? I very much doubt it, In fact Danial knew very well the arts and practitioners of Babylon, where is it do you suppose the wise men came from? the first to come and acknowledge the Christ? They certainly knew the time of there visitation unlike the Jews.
Here in acts during the 2 years Paul spent in Asia he preformed many miracles yet only one is recorded. Do you propose to imply that If its not in scripture its not of God? Were the miricals of no value if preformed today simply because there is no recorded record of that kind of miracle?
Acts 19:10-12
Or here just who is it Paul is referring to here?
Romans 1
[sup]18[/sup] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [sup]19[/sup] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [sup]20[/sup] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [sup]21[/sup] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [sup]22[/sup] Professing to be wise, they became fools, [sup]23[/sup] and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
[sup]24[/sup] Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, [sup]25[/sup] who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[sup]26[/sup] For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. [sup]27[/sup] Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
[sup]28[/sup] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [sup]29[/sup] being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[sup][c][/sup] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [sup]30[/sup] backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [sup]31[/sup] undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[sup][d][/sup] unmerciful; [sup]32[/sup] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Like I said who is Paul referring to here? Its very clear he is speaking from the beginning "creation" His "Gods" attributes are clearly seen. That tells me that God has been active in mens lives from the very dawn of creation. But the pulpit of most churches attribute all things prior to Abraham / Moses writings as of the devil. Paul says something different doesn't he. I believe that is why Paul was chosen and most sussesful at his commision from the Lord to take the message of Christ to the kings of the gentils. Acts 9:15
Paul was educated to highest standerd of the time, yet he accounted it all rubbish in light of Christ, But yet IMO it empowered him to understand the entire message of God from the very dawn of creation thus being able to reason in the understanding of the ancient ways, so he also knew the Torah extensively, thus being able to reason and introduce them to the fulfillment of the ancient ways and the errors of the Jewish leaders, leading them both into the fulfillment in JESUS.
This is Paul's opening statement in the letter to the Romans, he kicks it off with, For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [sup]21[/sup] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
He is speaking or rather addressing the very epicenter of every pagan religion on earth.
Very good point.
That is why we were given the New Testament. Both the Old and the New are necessary, but the New tells us what is necessary in the Old.
Then we we are yet remaining obediently under the leading of the foundation stones and not risking diviating from the example they set.
So the answer to whose concepts? Christ Jesus and the NT Bible writers. If we would stick closely to Christ Jesus as the chief corner stone and the NT Bible writers that serve as the foundation of the church, then we would be sure not to build onto it our own fleshly deceptions.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
If any of this feels personal to anyone it is the spirit trying to convict.
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