Don't you think that Jobeliano is already on to the whole catholic word game. Hes under pressure from his parents to continue in the catholic church. Im certain he has heard your explanation about praying to images and then denying your praying to images. Its the equivalent of your child slamming the door in front of mom and saying I didn't slam the door after a while it just becomes ridicules.
Questions For A Catholic
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Don't you think that Jobeliano is already on to the whole catholic word game. Hes under pressure from his parents to continue in the catholic church. Im certain he has heard your explanation about praying to images and then denying your praying to images. Its the equivalent of your child slamming the door in front of mom and saying I didn't slam the door after a while it just becomes ridicules.
Selene
New Member
This is my respone to Joebeliano's questions, and I hope that it answers the questions of everyone else's as well.
1. Catholics do not worship statues. The Bible says "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (Exodus 20:4). If we were to take this commandment literally, then all of us are guilty of breaking this commandment. The first commandment specifically says "not to make any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. People keep images of their spouses and family. They keep these pictures or images in their homes and wallets. Having these pictures would then be against the first commandment because it specifically says that we are not to make any likeness of anything in earth. So, taken literally, we are then supposed to get rid of all photographs or images of family members and spouses.
Furthermore, in the Bible God commanded Moses to fashion a bronze serpent so that anyone hwo looks at the bronze serpent would be healed (See Numbers 21:8-9). Because God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, then the first commandment of God must mean something much more than statues because God Himself would not go against His own commandments nor allow man to go against it. The first commandment of God is actually speaking of idoltry, and idoltry is not found in the statues. Idoltry is found in the human heart, and only God can see what is in the human heart. The statue of the bronze serpent is not God, and it was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites whenever they looked at it. It was God all along who healed them. That bronze serpent was only a sign to help the Israelites by pointing them towards God. They are to worship only God, not the bronze serpent. In the end, when the Israelites started worshipping the bronze serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4).
As for those statues that you see in Catholic Churches, they are the images of our family. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Apostles are also our brothers, and all the saints who are in Heaven are our brothers. We keep the images of our family in our Churches just as you keep the images of your family in your own home. Do we worship these statues and images of our Heavenly family? No. But we respect them and venerate them. Just as a man would look at the picture of his wife and family in a loving way, so do we look at the images of our Heavenly family in an honorable way. But God is who we worship.
When we bow, it is genuflecting - which is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed before the king and queen of Spain. Genuflecting or bowing in this way does not indicate worship in any way. It indicates "respect." Again, idoltry is not found in the statues or the images. It is found in a person's heart and only God knows a person's heart. So, if a person puts their job first before God, then that person is guilty of idoltry because nothing should come first before God.
2. We do not worship Mary. Jesus was the son of Mary. Jesus was the perfect son who obeyed all the commandments of God. He also obeyed the commandment "thou shalt honor thy mother and father." The Hebrew word for "honor" is "glorify" in English. Jesus followed this commandment just as He followed all commandments: Honor thy mother and father. Jesus glorified His Father, who is God. He also glorified His mother Mary. When Christ honored His mother Mary just as God commended in the Fourth Commandment, does this mean that Christ was worshipping His mother? No, of course not. But He honored her, and we are called to imitate Christ. Since Christ honored His mother Mary, we follow Christ's example. We honor Mary in the same way that He honored His mother. Christ was the perfect example of how one should honor their mothers, and Christ is the example we follow because He is the Way to salvation. Again, God is the only one we worship.
3. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome are allowed to follow the Orthodox-rites and even ordained men who are married. It is only in the Latin-rite Catholic Church that celibacy is a discipline. Celibacy is not a dogma within the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. In the Latin-rite Catholic Churches, celibacy has become a discipline for two reasons: 1) priests want to follow Christ's example of remaining single and being devoted to God than to a wife and family, and 2) priests and nuns want to follow in the things that is worthy to and in heaven as Jesus taught in the following biblical verse:
Luke 20:35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
I hope that answers your questions.
In Christ,
Selene
1. Catholics do not worship statues. The Bible says "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (Exodus 20:4). If we were to take this commandment literally, then all of us are guilty of breaking this commandment. The first commandment specifically says "not to make any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. People keep images of their spouses and family. They keep these pictures or images in their homes and wallets. Having these pictures would then be against the first commandment because it specifically says that we are not to make any likeness of anything in earth. So, taken literally, we are then supposed to get rid of all photographs or images of family members and spouses.
Furthermore, in the Bible God commanded Moses to fashion a bronze serpent so that anyone hwo looks at the bronze serpent would be healed (See Numbers 21:8-9). Because God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, then the first commandment of God must mean something much more than statues because God Himself would not go against His own commandments nor allow man to go against it. The first commandment of God is actually speaking of idoltry, and idoltry is not found in the statues. Idoltry is found in the human heart, and only God can see what is in the human heart. The statue of the bronze serpent is not God, and it was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites whenever they looked at it. It was God all along who healed them. That bronze serpent was only a sign to help the Israelites by pointing them towards God. They are to worship only God, not the bronze serpent. In the end, when the Israelites started worshipping the bronze serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4).
As for those statues that you see in Catholic Churches, they are the images of our family. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Apostles are also our brothers, and all the saints who are in Heaven are our brothers. We keep the images of our family in our Churches just as you keep the images of your family in your own home. Do we worship these statues and images of our Heavenly family? No. But we respect them and venerate them. Just as a man would look at the picture of his wife and family in a loving way, so do we look at the images of our Heavenly family in an honorable way. But God is who we worship.
When we bow, it is genuflecting - which is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed before the king and queen of Spain. Genuflecting or bowing in this way does not indicate worship in any way. It indicates "respect." Again, idoltry is not found in the statues or the images. It is found in a person's heart and only God knows a person's heart. So, if a person puts their job first before God, then that person is guilty of idoltry because nothing should come first before God.
2. We do not worship Mary. Jesus was the son of Mary. Jesus was the perfect son who obeyed all the commandments of God. He also obeyed the commandment "thou shalt honor thy mother and father." The Hebrew word for "honor" is "glorify" in English. Jesus followed this commandment just as He followed all commandments: Honor thy mother and father. Jesus glorified His Father, who is God. He also glorified His mother Mary. When Christ honored His mother Mary just as God commended in the Fourth Commandment, does this mean that Christ was worshipping His mother? No, of course not. But He honored her, and we are called to imitate Christ. Since Christ honored His mother Mary, we follow Christ's example. We honor Mary in the same way that He honored His mother. Christ was the perfect example of how one should honor their mothers, and Christ is the example we follow because He is the Way to salvation. Again, God is the only one we worship.
3. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome are allowed to follow the Orthodox-rites and even ordained men who are married. It is only in the Latin-rite Catholic Church that celibacy is a discipline. Celibacy is not a dogma within the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. In the Latin-rite Catholic Churches, celibacy has become a discipline for two reasons: 1) priests want to follow Christ's example of remaining single and being devoted to God than to a wife and family, and 2) priests and nuns want to follow in the things that is worthy to and in heaven as Jesus taught in the following biblical verse:
Luke 20:35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
I hope that answers your questions.
In Christ,
Selene
I like that passage I forgot about it. I like it because Jesus immediately knew in all that crowd that someone touched Him. What did He do He immediately searched for her.
But back on topic, no Aspen I don't have a question. I have an answer.
Selene
New Member
When a Catholic bows or genuflects to a statue or image, that is not worship at all. It is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed or genuflected to the king and queen of Spain. Was he worshipping the king and queen of Spain? No. He was showing respect. That is actually how respect is shown in Asian cultures. And the Middle East from which Christ came, genuflecting as a show of respect is practiced. Christ did not come from a western culture such as the United States where they don't bow as a sign of respect. Even Abraham bowed to the angels, but that was done out of respect (See Genesis 18:2). Abraham did not worship angels.
I will destroy your carved images and your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands.Micah 5:13
Did you read that? Do not bow means do not bow. Why would anyone try to justify their type of bow? "...no longer bow down to the work of your hands."
Catholics are commanded to bow to statues. All Catholics bow to statues too, before they sit down in the church.
I am a Catholic and I have never been commanded to bow to a statue. Where does it say that we are commanded to bow to any statue at anytime in the Catechism? Like Selene said, some Catholics geneflect to the Host before Mass - the Eucharist is not a statue.
The Holy Bible says not to make images. I've given some scriptures on this. I can give more.
Selene and I have already addressed this issue - you just don't like the answer.
Mk 5:27-29She (the woman with a hemorrhage) had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak. She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured." Immediately her flow of blood dried up.
Did Jesus tell anyone to bow to relics of clothing? No. Did Jesus tell us to bow to clothing? No. Did Jesus tell us to incense, or pay any special honor to clothing? No.
So why is this in the Bible? It is all about faith, Anastacia.
Acts 5:15 Acts 19:11-12: Did Paul say to venerate face cloths or aprons? No. Did Paul say to bow to them? No.
You really have to get over the whole bowing thing - Selene has already explained how people bowed to Kings and Queens all the time - yet they were not worshiping them.
Some uneducated Catholics are confused about the teaching - Jobeliano is living proof of this fact. It is unwise to judge a doctrine by the report of pew-sitters. I love God's Word. And the Catholic religion goes against the Word of God.
Believe what you want to believe. I used to see it that way too - I was wrong.
Look, I have no problem if you disagree with praying in front of statues, but you are misrepresenting the teachings of my church. I could make a solid claim that some Protestants worship the Bible, but I know church leaders do not teach the practice.
I am not misrepresenting the Catholic religion. I have given links to a Catholic site to show what the Catholics teach. Your claim about Protestants is silly. I'm not a Protestant, and I don't worship my Bible. You should see it, it has highlights in all different colors all over it, and pen underlinings. My Bible has had so much use that it's fallling apart in some pages.
You believe it is silly because you cannot image how anyone could possibly believe Protestants could get it so wrong that they would worship the Bible - now you know how I feel about your claim that Catholics worship statues. If you believe in sola scriptura - you are a Protestant, sorry.
I am a Catholic and I have never been commanded to bow to a statue. Where does it say that we are commanded to bow to any statue at anytime in the Catechism? Like Selene said, some Catholics geneflect to the Host before Mass - the Eucharist is not a statue.
The Holy Bible says not to make images. I've given some scriptures on this. I can give more.
Selene and I have already addressed this issue - you just don't like the answer.
Mk 5:27-29She (the woman with a hemorrhage) had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak. She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured." Immediately her flow of blood dried up.
Did Jesus tell anyone to bow to relics of clothing? No. Did Jesus tell us to bow to clothing? No. Did Jesus tell us to incense, or pay any special honor to clothing? No.
So why is this in the Bible? It is all about faith, Anastacia.
Acts 5:15 Acts 19:11-12: Did Paul say to venerate face cloths or aprons? No. Did Paul say to bow to them? No.
You really have to get over the whole bowing thing - Selene has already explained how people bowed to Kings and Queens all the time - yet they were not worshiping them.
Some uneducated Catholics are confused about the teaching - Jobeliano is living proof of this fact. It is unwise to judge a doctrine by the report of pew-sitters. I love God's Word. And the Catholic religion goes against the Word of God.
Believe what you want to believe. I used to see it that way too - I was wrong.
Look, I have no problem if you disagree with praying in front of statues, but you are misrepresenting the teachings of my church. I could make a solid claim that some Protestants worship the Bible, but I know church leaders do not teach the practice.
I am not misrepresenting the Catholic religion. I have given links to a Catholic site to show what the Catholics teach. Your claim about Protestants is silly. I'm not a Protestant, and I don't worship my Bible. You should see it, it has highlights in all different colors all over it, and pen underlinings. My Bible has had so much use that it's fallling apart in some pages.
You believe it is silly because you cannot image how anyone could possibly believe Protestants could get it so wrong that they would worship the Bible - now you know how I feel about your claim that Catholics worship statues. If you believe in sola scriptura - you are a Protestant, sorry.
Selene
New Member
Again, I have given my response to Joebeliano's post if anyone cared to read it. I'm sure it would answer a lot of your own questions. Furthermore, Aspen is correct. Catholics only worship God and God alone. It is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And if anyone bothered to read what I posted, it explained that idoltry is not found in the statues, images, job, money, family, or even in the pictures of your loved one. It is found in the human heart, which God can only see.
Therefore, how does not accuse someone of idoltry, when they can't see what is in the human heart? When a man has a bigger house and a nice car than another, does this mean that he loves money more than God? Yet, a man can actually put money or his job first before God, and that would indeed be idoltry. Anything that comes first before God is idoltry.
Therefore, how does not accuse someone of idoltry, when they can't see what is in the human heart? When a man has a bigger house and a nice car than another, does this mean that he loves money more than God? Yet, a man can actually put money or his job first before God, and that would indeed be idoltry. Anything that comes first before God is idoltry.
Great! Go start a thread.
The problem with bringing up Catholicism is that people do not want to know what Catholics teach - why would they want to read our threads? - they want to tell us what we really believe. So it looks as if this thread may have been a mistake.
Selene
New Member
Are you denying what Abraham did in the Bible when he bowed down before the angels when they came to visit him? Did you not know that in Asian and Middle Eastern cultures, bowing is a sign of respect? Where was Christ raised? He was not raised in the United States where they don't bow as a sign of respect. Idoltry can be found only in the human heart. God is the only one who knows whether one is bowing as a sign of respect or worshipping an idol. There is a difference between the two, but only God can determine that difference because only He can see into a person's heart.
We are not to bow down to statues. Period. No matter how you try to cut it.
Selene
New Member
My sister, we are not to worship anyone or anything other than God. That is what God looks for in a person's heart. Whether you bow out of respect to the angels or to a human king does not matter so long as one does not worship the angel or the human king. God already commanded that statues can be built. As a matter of fact, God commanded statues of bulls and lions to be built in the Temple of Solomon. He commanded a bronze serpent to be built. That bronze serpent was an icon. It was when the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent that God had it destroyed. Then it become an idol. God will destroy the idols even if it's your job, but He will not destroy an icon because an icon is a sign that leads to Him.
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma]Catholics are commanded to bow to statues. All Catholics bow to statues too, before they sit down in the church.[/font]
[font="tahoma][/font]
[font="tahoma]I am a Catholic and I have never been commanded to bow to a statue. Where does it say that we are commanded to bow to any statue at anytime in the Catechism? Like Selene said, some Catholics geneflect to the Host before Mass - the Eucharist is not a statue.
You are denying what your own religion teaches. [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma]
[/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma][size="3"]So Prove it! Where is the Catechism does it command Catholics to bow to statues?[/size]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]The Holy Bible says not to make images. I've given some scriptures on this. I can give more.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font][font="tahoma]Selene and I have already addressed this issue - you just don't like the answer.
I've addressed this to you---you don't like God's Word about statues and bowing.[/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma] [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"][font="tahoma]Liking or disliking has nothing to do with it. We addressed the issue - go read about it.[/font][/color][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma] [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][color="#FF0000"]Look, I have no problem if you disagree with praying in front of statues, but you are misrepresenting the teachings of my church. I could make a solid claim that some Protestants worship the Bible, but I know church leaders do not teach the practice.
[/font][/color][font="tahoma][color="#8B0000"]You believe it is silly because you cannot image how anyone could possibly believe Protestants could get it so wrong that they would worship the Bible - now you know how I feel about your claim that Catholics worship statues. [/color]If you believe in sola scriptura - you are a Protestant, sorry.
You are trying to play games now. I'm not Protestant. And I've shown you what your religion teaches. You just don't want to admit it. [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font][/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"][font="tahoma]You know what? Every time you dismiss what I say by calling me silly or claiming that I am just playing games just makes me respect you less.[/font][/color][/size][/font]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][/font][/color]
[size="3"]Regarding the issue of Catholics being commanded to bow and worship statues; unless you can prove it from the Vatican II Catechism:
"[font="tahoma]I am finish with a discussion we are having - my answer may not satisfy you - tough."[/font][/size]
[font="tahoma][/font]
[font="tahoma]I am a Catholic and I have never been commanded to bow to a statue. Where does it say that we are commanded to bow to any statue at anytime in the Catechism? Like Selene said, some Catholics geneflect to the Host before Mass - the Eucharist is not a statue.
You are denying what your own religion teaches. [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma]
[/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma][size="3"]So Prove it! Where is the Catechism does it command Catholics to bow to statues?[/size]
[/font]
[font="tahoma]The Holy Bible says not to make images. I've given some scriptures on this. I can give more.[/font]
[font="tahoma]
[/font][font="tahoma]Selene and I have already addressed this issue - you just don't like the answer.
I've addressed this to you---you don't like God's Word about statues and bowing.[/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma] [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"][font="tahoma]Liking or disliking has nothing to do with it. We addressed the issue - go read about it.[/font][/color][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][font="tahoma] [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][color="#FF0000"]Look, I have no problem if you disagree with praying in front of statues, but you are misrepresenting the teachings of my church. I could make a solid claim that some Protestants worship the Bible, but I know church leaders do not teach the practice.
[/font][/color][font="tahoma][color="#8B0000"]You believe it is silly because you cannot image how anyone could possibly believe Protestants could get it so wrong that they would worship the Bible - now you know how I feel about your claim that Catholics worship statues. [/color]If you believe in sola scriptura - you are a Protestant, sorry.
You are trying to play games now. I'm not Protestant. And I've shown you what your religion teaches. You just don't want to admit it. [/font][/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font][/color][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"][font="tahoma]You know what? Every time you dismiss what I say by calling me silly or claiming that I am just playing games just makes me respect you less.[/font][/color][/size][/font]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][/font][/color]
[size="3"]Regarding the issue of Catholics being commanded to bow and worship statues; unless you can prove it from the Vatican II Catechism:
"[font="tahoma]I am finish with a discussion we are having - my answer may not satisfy you - tough."[/font][/size]
Selene
New Member
Once again, I will post my response to the 3 questions that a poster asked. I've also added some additional comments in blue.
1. Catholics do not worship statues. The Bible says "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (Exodus 20:4). If we were to take this commandment literally, then all of us are guilty of breaking this commandment. The first commandment specifically says "not to make any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. People keep images of their spouses and family. They keep these pictures or images in their homes and wallets. Having these pictures would then be against the first commandment because it specifically says that we are not to make any likeness of anything in earth. So, taken literally, we are then supposed to get rid of all photographs or images of family members and spouses.
Furthermore, in the Bible God commanded Moses to fashion a bronze serpent so that anyone hwo looks at the bronze serpent would be healed (See Numbers 21:8-9). Because God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, then the first commandment of God must mean something much more than statues because God Himself would not go against His own commandments nor allow man to go against it. The first commandment of God is actually speaking of idoltry, and idoltry is not found in the statues. Idoltry is found in the human heart, and only God can see what is in the human heart. The statue of the bronze serpent is not God, and it was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites whenever they looked at it. It was God all along who healed them. That bronze serpent was only a sign to help the Israelites by pointing them towards God. They are to worship only God, not the bronze serpent. In the end, when the Israelites started worshipping the bronze serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4).
As for those statues that you see in Catholic Churches, they are the images of our family. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Apostles are also our brothers, and all the saints who are in Heaven are our brothers. We keep the images of our family in our Churches just as you keep the images of your family in your own home. Do we worship these statues and images of our Heavenly family? No. But we respect them and venerate them. Just as a man would look at the picture of his wife and family in a loving way, so do we look at the images of our Heavenly family in an honorable way. But God is who we worship.
When we bow, it is genuflecting - which is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed before the king and queen of Spain. Genuflecting or bowing in this way does not indicate worship in any way. It indicates "respect." Again, idoltry is not found in the statues or the images. It is found in a person's heart and only God knows a person's heart. So, if a person puts their job first before God, then that person is guilty of idoltry because nothing should come first before God.
If you take the first commandment literally, then your home should be bare of all photographs or images of your loved ones because the first commandment specified that no likeness of anything on earth should be made. This also means that all those man-make flowers on your table and any decorations on your walls should be thrown out along with those images of your loved ones. The walls in your homes and tables should be completely bare of any of the likeness specified in the first commandment. It would unjust to accuse Catholics of having images of their loved ones in their Churches and yet, it is okay for Protestants to have images of their loved ones in their homes.
2. We do not worship Mary. Jesus was the son of Mary. Jesus was the perfect son who obeyed all the commandments of God. He also obeyed the commandment "thou shalt honor thy mother and father." The Hebrew word for "honor" is "glorify" in English. Jesus followed this commandment just as He followed all commandments: Honor thy mother and father. Jesus glorified His Father, who is God. He also glorified His mother Mary. When Christ honored His mother Mary just as God commended in the Fourth Commandment, does this mean that Christ was worshipping His mother? No, of course not. But He honored her, and we are called to imitate Christ. Since Christ honored His mother Mary, we follow Christ's example. We honor Mary in the same way that He honored His mother. Christ was the perfect example of how one should honor their mothers, and Christ is the example we follow because He is the Way to salvation. Again, God is the only one we worship.
3. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome are allowed to follow the Orthodox-rites and even ordained men who are married. It is only in the Latin-rite Catholic Church that celibacy is a discipline. Celibacy is not a dogma within the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. In the Latin-rite Catholic Churches, celibacy has become a discipline for two reasons: 1) priests want to follow Christ's example of remaining single and being devoted to God than to a wife and family, and 2) priests and nuns want to follow in the things that is worthy to and in heaven as Jesus taught in the following biblical verse:
Luke 20:35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
I hope that answers your questions.
In Christ,
Selene
1. Catholics do not worship statues. The Bible says "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (Exodus 20:4). If we were to take this commandment literally, then all of us are guilty of breaking this commandment. The first commandment specifically says "not to make any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. People keep images of their spouses and family. They keep these pictures or images in their homes and wallets. Having these pictures would then be against the first commandment because it specifically says that we are not to make any likeness of anything in earth. So, taken literally, we are then supposed to get rid of all photographs or images of family members and spouses.
Furthermore, in the Bible God commanded Moses to fashion a bronze serpent so that anyone hwo looks at the bronze serpent would be healed (See Numbers 21:8-9). Because God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, then the first commandment of God must mean something much more than statues because God Himself would not go against His own commandments nor allow man to go against it. The first commandment of God is actually speaking of idoltry, and idoltry is not found in the statues. Idoltry is found in the human heart, and only God can see what is in the human heart. The statue of the bronze serpent is not God, and it was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites whenever they looked at it. It was God all along who healed them. That bronze serpent was only a sign to help the Israelites by pointing them towards God. They are to worship only God, not the bronze serpent. In the end, when the Israelites started worshipping the bronze serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4).
As for those statues that you see in Catholic Churches, they are the images of our family. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Apostles are also our brothers, and all the saints who are in Heaven are our brothers. We keep the images of our family in our Churches just as you keep the images of your family in your own home. Do we worship these statues and images of our Heavenly family? No. But we respect them and venerate them. Just as a man would look at the picture of his wife and family in a loving way, so do we look at the images of our Heavenly family in an honorable way. But God is who we worship.
When we bow, it is genuflecting - which is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed before the king and queen of Spain. Genuflecting or bowing in this way does not indicate worship in any way. It indicates "respect." Again, idoltry is not found in the statues or the images. It is found in a person's heart and only God knows a person's heart. So, if a person puts their job first before God, then that person is guilty of idoltry because nothing should come first before God.
If you take the first commandment literally, then your home should be bare of all photographs or images of your loved ones because the first commandment specified that no likeness of anything on earth should be made. This also means that all those man-make flowers on your table and any decorations on your walls should be thrown out along with those images of your loved ones. The walls in your homes and tables should be completely bare of any of the likeness specified in the first commandment. It would unjust to accuse Catholics of having images of their loved ones in their Churches and yet, it is okay for Protestants to have images of their loved ones in their homes.
2. We do not worship Mary. Jesus was the son of Mary. Jesus was the perfect son who obeyed all the commandments of God. He also obeyed the commandment "thou shalt honor thy mother and father." The Hebrew word for "honor" is "glorify" in English. Jesus followed this commandment just as He followed all commandments: Honor thy mother and father. Jesus glorified His Father, who is God. He also glorified His mother Mary. When Christ honored His mother Mary just as God commended in the Fourth Commandment, does this mean that Christ was worshipping His mother? No, of course not. But He honored her, and we are called to imitate Christ. Since Christ honored His mother Mary, we follow Christ's example. We honor Mary in the same way that He honored His mother. Christ was the perfect example of how one should honor their mothers, and Christ is the example we follow because He is the Way to salvation. Again, God is the only one we worship.
3. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome are allowed to follow the Orthodox-rites and even ordained men who are married. It is only in the Latin-rite Catholic Church that celibacy is a discipline. Celibacy is not a dogma within the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. In the Latin-rite Catholic Churches, celibacy has become a discipline for two reasons: 1) priests want to follow Christ's example of remaining single and being devoted to God than to a wife and family, and 2) priests and nuns want to follow in the things that is worthy to and in heaven as Jesus taught in the following biblical verse:
Luke 20:35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
I hope that answers your questions.
In Christ,
Selene
[font="Verdana][size="2"][font="Verdana][size="2"]The following verses are examples of worshiping without bowing[/size][/font][/size][font="Verdana] [/font][/size]
[b][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+47:31&version=NIV"]Genesis 47:31[/url][/b]“Swear to me,” he said. Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.[/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Exodus 33:10
Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent.[/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joshua 24:14
“Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 2:37
and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple butworshiped night and day, fasting and praying.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]The following verses are examples of bowing without worshiping[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 19:1
[ Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed ] The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 27:29
May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed.”[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 33:3
He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 33:6
Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 24:5
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]There were so many examples of bowing to people and angels and nations in the OT I had to stop posting them[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Also, 90% of the verses that included the word worship and bowing also included the word and - indicating they were separate actions.[/size][/font]
[b][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+47:31&version=NIV"]Genesis 47:31[/url][/b]“Swear to me,” he said. Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.[/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Exodus 33:10
Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent.[/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joshua 24:14
“Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 2:37
and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple butworshiped night and day, fasting and praying.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]The following verses are examples of bowing without worshiping[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 19:1
[ Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed ] The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 27:29
May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed.”[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 33:3
He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Genesis 33:6
Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Luke 24:5
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]There were so many examples of bowing to people and angels and nations in the OT I had to stop posting them[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Also, 90% of the verses that included the word worship and bowing also included the word and - indicating they were separate actions.[/size][/font]
Selene
New Member
I see.... you think it is wrong for us to bow down to statues because the Bible says not to bow down, but it is okay for you to keep images of your loved ones in your home and wallet despite the fact that God also said "Do not make any likeness of anything that is on earth."
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
My sister, the Bible is correct. We are not supposed to bow down in WORSHIP to anyone except God. When St. John bowed down to worship the angel, the angel said "Do not do it." It is referring to "Worship." However, bowing down in respect is not worship and is permitted. When Abraham bowed down to the angels who came to him, none of the angels there said, "do not do it."
Genesis 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
As I have been saying, there is a difference between bowing in respect and bowing in worship. Only God knows whether we bow in respect or bow in worship. You, on the other hand, do not know how to tell the difference.
My sister, even the angels burn incense in the book of Revelations. We are not burning incense to the crucifix or holy images because these are only icons (signs). It was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites....it was God. And it was not the bronze serpent that the Israelites were supposed to worship. It was God who they were supposed to worship. The bronze serpent was only an icon. It was only a sign. When the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent, God destroyed it. Why? Because the bronze serpent became an idol the moment the Israelites started to worship it in their hearts. And again, only God knows what is in the hearts of the Israelites.
In Christ,
Selene
So lets just cut threw the chase shall we. Ex 20:4-5
Exodus 20
[sup]4[/sup] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [sup]5[/sup] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, [sup]6[/sup] but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
[sup]7[/sup] “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath
Would you care to explain just how these statues came into being? Its been said that in the 4th century when your church became the church of Rome under law. That the images of the old gods in the pantheon were renamed, that your fathers just moved in and and hung a new shingle on the front door, Universal Church of Rome. But to the point the 4th commandment says not to even make, let alone place them in your sanctuary at the alter.
For years its been known that Catholics drop the 4th commandment and split the 10th.
See the graph on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
Division of the Ten Commandments by religion/denomination
Like I asked just how do these images come to be? Did someone make them? And don't hand me that comparison line about making a doll for the kids or a gnome for the garden, these are placed in the highest places of reverence in your churches. When the people bow their heads its to the alter where you place them. Your fathers bow to them even if they aren't in the sanctuary. Want to see some pictures?
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