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Anastacia

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[font="Verdana][size="3"]There were so many examples of bowing to people and angels and nations in the OT I had to stop posting them[/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="3"]Also, 90% of the verses that included the word worship and bowing also included the word and - indicating they were separate actions.[/size][/font]



And we are told not to bow down to them OR worship statues.

Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.




 

aspen

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1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses" who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness," who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:


Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.


[font="Arial][size="3"]I must of missed the commandment for laypeople to bow down to statues before Mass.....[/size][/font]
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[font="Arial][size="3"]I never denied that the Catholic Church teaches us to venerate symbols of Christ. Venerating is not worshiping. [/size][/font]

And we are told not to bow down to them OR worship statues.

Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

And I promise - if I see or hear about a Catholic worshiping or bowing down TO a created thing or statue, I will correct him, just like I corrected Jobeliano.


 

Anastacia

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[font="Arial][size="3"]
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[font="Arial][size="3"]I never denied that the Catholic Church teaches us to venerate symbols of Christ. Venerating is not worshiping. [/size][/font]



And I promise - if I see or hear about a Catholic worshiping or bowing down TO a created thing or statue, I will correct him, just like I corrected [font="tahoma][url="http://www.christianityboard.com/user/6559-jobeliano/"]Jobeliano[/url].[/font]


Venerate means to worship. Go check the dictionary. The Catholics bow down to statues. When the Truth was revealed to me, I could not go back in a Catholic Church. I thought about just ignoring the statues and other false teachings.....but I could not ignore it.
 

Selene

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And we are told not to bow down to them OR worship statues.

Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I agree. We are not supposed to bow down in worship. And we follow this. We bow down as a sign of respect. This has always been an Asian and Middle Eastern custom. Bowing is also a sign of respect in Asia (where I am from) and the Middle East. Jesus was brought up in the Middle East where this custom is common. He was not raised in America. Just as there are many examples showing bowing in worship, there are also examples of bowing as a sign of respect. The bible is also full of people bowing as a sign of respect. Here are a few others:

Genesis 23:7 Abraham rose up, and bowed down to the people of the land, to wit the children of Heth:

Genesis 23:12 Abraham bowed down before the people of the land,

Genesis 43:26 Then Joseph came into his house, and they offered him the presents holding them in their hands, and they bowed down with their face to the ground.


You seem to have a problem with the fact that we bow down in respect; yet, you have no problems with having images of your loved one in your home? That seems a bit hypocritical.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Anastacia

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I agree. We are not supposed to bow down in worship. And we follow this. We bow down as a sign of respect. This has always been an Asian and Middle Eastern custom. Bowing is also a sign of respect in Asia (where I am from) and the Middle East. Jesus was brought up in the Middle East where this custom is common. He was not raised in America. Just as there are many examples showing bowing in worship, there are also examples of bowing as a sign of respect. The bible is also full of people bowing as a sign of respect. Here are a few others:

Genesis 23:7 Abraham rose up, and bowed down to the people of the land, to wit the children of Heth:

Genesis 23:12 Abraham bowed down before the people of the land,

Genesis 43:26 Then Joseph came into his house, and they offered him the presents holding them in their hands, and they bowed down with their face to the ground.


You seem to have a problem with the fact that we bow down in respect; yet, you have no problems with having images of your loved one in your home? That seems a bit hypocritical.

In Christ,
Selene


The Bible says do not bow down to them OR worship them.
 

bud02

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[font="Arial][size="2"]1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses" who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness," who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:[/size][/font]
[font="Arial] [/font][/color]
[color="#5c5c5c"][font="Arial] [/font][/color][color="#5c5c5c"][font="Arial][size="2"]Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial] [/font][/color]
[font="Arial][size="3"]I must of missed the commandment for laypeople to bow down to statues before Mass.....[/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="3"]I never denied that the Catholic Church teaches us to venerate symbols of Christ. Venerating is not worshiping. [/size][/font]



And I promise - if I see or hear about a Catholic worshiping or bowing down TO a created thing or statue, I will correct him, just like I corrected [font="tahoma][url="http://www.christianityboard.com/user/6559-jobeliano/"]Jobeliano[/url].[/font]





I can see now that were going to have discuss "sola " scripture. Which will lead to Peter which will lead to Mathew 16:18. which is the the very foundation your church stands on, the rock of Peter. My grandfather was a man of few words but I can hear him now whistling Rock of Ages cleft for me. I got the message Im sure you did as well. Mark 5:30 Its late good night.
 

aspen

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Venerate means to worship. Go check the dictionary. The Catholics bow down to statues. When the Truth was revealed to me, I could not go back in a Catholic Church. I thought about just ignoring the statues and other false teachings.....but I could not ignore it.

In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the adoration due to God alone. According to Deacon Dr. Mark Miravelle, of Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration. Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the type of worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons.

Here is the teaching on veneration. Sorry, Webster is not a Catholic.

Once again, you are refusing to distinguish the teachings of the Catholic Church from your own interpretation of those teachings. I could careless if you decide to redefine Catholic teaching as long as you admit it.

Also, do you really think I disrespect you because you are preaching the real word of God? Common - I think we had a pretty decent conversation the other night. I am losing respect for you because you are dismissing every word I am saying using words like game and silly. I am not treating you in this manner - why are you choosing to belittle what I have to say?

BTW - I have launched into defending Catholic doctrine - I am tired of it. I will now present it and people can decide to learn from people who go to a Catholic church. like Selene and I or Anastacia who now longer attends a Catholic Church.
 

Selene

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The Bible says do not bow down to them OR worship them.

Actually, the Bible says not to bow down to them in WORSHIP, which is exactly what we follow. The Bible also says not to make any likeness of anything on earth....and you have no problems with that? If it is okay for you to violate the first commandment of God by making an image in the likeness of someone on earth, why should bowing down to a statue in respect bother you?

And for your information, in the English language, there are many definitions for one word. For example, the word "venerate" also means to respect. According to the World English Dictionary:

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World English Dictionary venerate (ˈvɛnəˌreɪt) vb 1. to hold in deep respect; revere 2. to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc [C17: from Latin venerārī, from venus love]

Thus, this is the definition we follow. To venerate in the Catholic sense means to respect.
 

Anastacia

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Actually, the Bible says not to bow down to them in WORSHIP, which is exactly what we follow. The Bible also says not to make any likeness of anything on earth....and you have no problems with that? If it is okay for you to violate the first commandment of God by making an image in the likeness of someone on earth, why should bowing down to a statue in respect bother you?

And for your information, in the English language, there are many definitions for one word. For example, the word "venerate" also means to respect. According to the World English Dictionary:



World English Dictionary venerate (ˈvɛnəˌreɪt) vb 1. to hold in deep respect; revere 2. to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc [C17: from Latin venerārī, from venus love]

Thus, this is the definition we follow. To venerate in the Catholic sense means to respect.

We should not bow to....nor worhip.....nor honor.....nor venerate....nor give reverence to....nor respect images of what some think Jesus and Mary look like.
 

Selene

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The Bible says do not bow down to them OR worship them.

I have noticed that so far all you have done is focus on "bowing." What about the part where God commanded not to make any likeness on earth. This is what the First commandment says:

Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

You have nothing to say about the images of your loved ones in your home and wallet? No? But you are more concern about the next verse that says do not bow or worship the image. The entire first commandment is actually talking about idoltry. We look at what the commandment is saying as a whole rather than pick the verses we like. In other words, we do not focus only on the "thou shalt not bow" part and leave out the rest of the biblical verse.

Because I come from Asia, I can tell you for a fact that Buddhists bow to the statue of Buddha, but they don't worship it. The Buddhists are atheists. They don't worship any god. Buddha is someone they respect, and yes, the Buddhists also bow to their elders in respect.

In Christ,
Selene
 

aspen

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We should not bow to....nor worhip.....nor honor.....nor venerate....nor give reference to....nor respect images of what some think Jesus and Mary look like.

According to.....Anastacia?

Not good enough.

I gave you plenty of verses of people in the OT who bowed down to angels, people, and nations without worshiping them and they were not corrected.

All Churches use symbols - Protestants simply replaced Catholic symbols with their own.


 

Anastacia

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In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the adoration due to God alone. According to Deacon Dr. Mark Miravelle, of Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration. Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the type of worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons.

Here is the teaching on veneration. Sorry, Webster is not a Catholic.

Once again, you are refusing to distinguish the teachings of the Catholic Church from your own interpretation of those teachings. I could careless if you decide to redefine Catholic teaching as long as you admit it.

Also, do you really think I disrespect you because you are preaching the real word of God? Common - I think we had a pretty decent conversation the other night. I am losing respect for you because you are dismissing every word I am saying using words like game and silly. I am not treating you in this manner - why are you choosing to belittle what I have to say?

BTW - I have launched into defending Catholic doctrine - I am tired of it. I will now present it and people can decide to learn from people who go to a Catholic church. like Selene and I or Anastacia who now longer attends a Catholic Church.

aspen, You should admit that you are trying to put me down some when you say things like no one should listen to one who isn't a Catholic anymore. I understand that you are standing up for your religion, but you know you are getting a little offensive to me at times. I really like our conversation the other night. I feel that my heart will burst if I don't talk about things Jesus revealed to me. I tell you things about the Catholic Church because Jesus revealed to me, and I want to share what I know. I'm not saying you aren't one of God's people. As for the statues in the Catholic Church....I, as a young child of around 10 years old would ask my mom why does the church have so many statues when the Bible says not to. Even a young child knows better.



"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities'" (Revelation 18:4,5).
 

Selene

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So lets just cut threw the chase shall we. Ex 20:4-5


Exodus 20
[sup]4[/sup] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [sup]5[/sup] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, [sup]6[/sup] but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
[sup]7[/sup] “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath
Would you care to explain just how these statues came into being? Its been said that in the 4th century when your church became the church of Rome under law. That the images of the old gods in the pantheon were renamed, that your fathers just moved in and and hung a new shingle on the front door, Universal Church of Rome. But to the point the 4th commandment says not to even make, let alone place them in your sanctuary at the alter.

If you take the first commandment of God literally, then why do you have images of your loved ones in your home and in your wallet? The first commandment specifically states not to make any likeness that is in the earth.....and yes, my friend, that WOULD include the doll that you have for your daughter and the toy truck that you have for your son.....that is if you take the first commandment literally. As a matter of fact, you are not even supposed to have a statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial or any such statues. So, why do you have a statue of Abraham Lincoln? Why do have a picture (an image) of the founding fathers in your congress?

My brother, the images have always been there since the Early Church. You would find paintings of Christ and the Apostles that were painted by the Early Church dating back to the first century. Below is a weblink telling you about the mosaic paintings of the Early Church dating back to the first century.

http://www.oldandsol...ticle1347.shtml

Christ and the Apostles are our brothers. All the saints are our brothers. They are our loved ones. Just as it is okay for you to have an image of your loved ones in your home, so it is okay for us to have images of our beloved brothers in our Churches. Just as it is okay for you to have a statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington DC and even Lady Liberty in New York City, then it should be okay for us to have statues of our loved ones as well. So, why are you complaining when all of you are guilty of the same things that you are accusing Catholics of? :D God bless.

In Christ,
Selene
 

aspen

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aspen, You should admit that you are trying to put me down some when you say things like no one should listen to one who isn't a Catholic anymore. I understand that you are standing up for your religion, but you know you are getting a little offensive to me at times. I really like our conversation the other night. I feel that my heart will burst if I don't talk about things Jesus revealed to me. I tell you things about the Catholic Church because Jesus revealed to me, and I want to share what I know. I'm not saying you aren't one of God's people. As for the statues in the Catholic Church....I, as a young child of around 10 years old would ask my mom why does the church have so many statues when the Bible says not to. Even a young child knows better.



"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities'" (Revelation 18:4,5).



Now you are sounding like yourself again - remember, we are both working together to learn. I am sorry that you were offended by my comment - it wasn't meant to be offensive - I was being completely serious. I am also sorry that you haven't recognized that you have used offensive language in our conversation even though I've pointed it out twice. Believe me, I would refer a Protestant to you rather than trying to convince them that they were being taught a lie according to the Catholic Church. I think you are very knowledgeable about the Bible and your own tradition - remember? I left Protestantism 10 years ago, but I still love my Christian family in my old tradition. Paul tells us not to do anything to make a brother or sister stumble - if a person has a relationship with Christ, without the same doctrinal belief as myself, I am not going to jeopardize their faith for my doctrine.
 

Anastacia

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Now you are sounding like yourself again - remember, we are both working together to learn. I am sorry that you were offended by my comment - it wasn't meant to be offensive - I was being completely serious. I am also sorry that you haven't recognized that you have used offensive language in our conversation even though I've pointed it out twice. Believe me, I would refer a Protestant to you rather than trying to convince them that they were being taught a lie according to the Catholic Church. I think you are very knowledgeable about the Bible and your own tradition - remember? I left Protestantism 10 years ago, but I still love my Christian family in my old tradition. Paul tells us not to do anything to make a brother or sister stumble - if a person has a relationship with Christ, without the same doctrinal belief as myself, I am not going to jeopardize their faith for my doctrine.


I think you are over reacting to my word "silly" and "game." I do apologize.
I only speak of what the Bible says. Why would you possibly stumble when you hear some truth about the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church isn't Jesus. The Catholic Church didn't die for you. You keep your faith in Jesus. You want to please the Lord, right? So do what the Bible says, and not what the Catholic Church says. There are a lot of false teachings of the Catholic Church, one of them is that the Pope is called "Holy Father." "Holy Father" is a name only reserved for God. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can stay in a religion that does such things. If you desire Jesus, and you find yourself in a religion that is not of the truth, then repent and go on. You aren't suppose to loose your faith, but your faith should grow when you accept the truth. The Truth should make you feel closer to God. Please keep the communication going. Okay?
 

Anastacia

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My replies to Selene in blue.

If you take the first commandment of God literally, then why do you have images of your loved ones in your home and in your wallet?
I do not bow down to any pictures of my family. We are talking of spiritual things when we talk about the Bible.


The first commandment specifically states not to make any likeness that is in the earth.....and yes, my friend, that WOULD include the doll that you have for your daughter and the toy truck that you have for your son.....that is if you take the first commandment literally.
You are talking about dolls and toy trucks. I'm talking about bowing down to an idol.


As a matter of fact, you are not even supposed to have a statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial or any such statues. So, why do you have a statue of Abraham Lincoln? Why do have a picture (an image) of the founding fathers in your congress?
Do you know of people who are commanded to bow to the statue of Lincoln? Do you know of people who call the statue of Lincoln a "holy image"? That's what Catholics do with their statues and pictures of Jesus, Mary and Catholic saints. They bow to them. Again, you are not talking of spiritual things when you say things like "why do you have a picture of the founding fathers."

Christ and the Apostles are our brothers. All the saints are our brothers. They are our loved ones. Just as it is okay for you to have an image of your loved ones in your home, so it is okay for us to have images of our beloved brothers in our Churches. Just as it is okay for you to have a statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington DC and even Lady Liberty in New York City, then it should be okay for us to have statues of our loved ones as well. So, why are you complaining when all of you are guilty of the same things that you are accusing Catholics of? :D God bless.

It is not the same thing, not at all. To repeat: We do not bow to pictures of our family, nor do we bow to our children's dolls and toy trucks, nor statues of Abraham Lincoln. Nor do we incense them. God is Spirit. And those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. See John 4:24.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Selene

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I think you are over reacting to my word "silly" and "game." I do apologize.
I only speak of what the Bible says. Why would you possibly stumble when you hear some truth about the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church isn't Jesus. The Catholic Church didn't die for you. You keep your faith in Jesus. You want to please the Lord, right? So do what the Bible says, and not what the Catholic Church says. There are a lot of false teachings of the Catholic Church, one of them is that the Pope is called "Holy Father." "Holy Father" is a name only reserved for God. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can stay in a religion that does such things. If you desire Jesus, and you find yourself in a religion that is not of the truth, then repent and go on. You aren't suppose to loose your faith, but your faith should grow when you accept the truth. The Truth should make you feel closer to God. Please keep the communication going. Okay?

Hello Anastacia,

Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it ever said that Jesus is the Church. Jesus is the Head of the Church. Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say that the Church died for us. We have always taught that it was Christ who died on the cross. By pleasing the Lord, Catholics also do what the Church tells us because Christ is the Head of the Church and is the one in charge. Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say that the Pope is the Head of the Church. I would never tell you to leave your Christian denomination nor would I put it down in any way. You are obviously happy in your faith just as I am happy in mine. Communication between Christians regardless of what denomination is always good because we can always learn from each other.

We also quote from scripture, and I think that it can be proven through Scripture that there are indeed two kinds of bowing that is recognized in Scripture - a bowing that is done in worship and a bowing that is done as a sign of respect. Therefore, because you bow to nothing, you are following the Bible. And because we bow as a sign of respect, we are also following the Bible. Both of us follow the Bible. In regards to idoltry, only God can judge our hearts. No human on earth can determine for certain whether this person loves money more than God or that person is bowing in worship rather than bowing out of respect. Only God can determine that because only He can see what is inside the human heart; therefore, we leave the judgement of idoltry to Him rather than accuse one another of it. Also, it seems that both Protestants and Catholics do not take the entire first commandment literally because Protestants have images of their loved ones in their homes and even built statues of the Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, etc. to remember these famous men. Catholics have images of their loved ones in their Churches as well. So, on this respect, we are the same. The fact that you don't bow down to your image is irrelevant because the Bible clearly states "Do not MAKE any likeness on this earth."

In Christ,
Selene

 

aspen

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I think you are over reacting to my word "silly" and "game." I do apologize.

Accepted.

I only speak of what the Bible says.

As do I. Selene, you and I have been sharing verses for the past 3 hours.

Why would you possibly stumble when you hear some truth about the Catholic Church?

I am not worried about myself. I am also not worried about hearing truth about the Catholic Church, however - no offense, I haven't heard any from you yet. I've heard you reinterpret what the Church teaches. Again, if you said something like, "Some Catholics worship statues" or it sure looks as if the Catholic Church teaches it's people to worship statues - I couldn't argue with you. But to claim that the Church actually teaches this falsehood - a practice it condemns - is going to lead me to correct you. Let's say I noticed that several people in your church had wildly different understandings of one of Christ's teachings and I decided that your minister teaches private interpretation of the scriptures; this would be a falsehood that needed to be corrected. I would be misleading if I asked "why would you possibly stumble when you hear some truth about the church I attend" because it would not be truth, but a distortion of the truth.


As far as me worrying about anyone else stumbling, I value a justified and sanctifying relationship with Jesus over doctrinal correctness. So, if I run into a person who has a relationship with Jesus, I am not going to jeopardize their relationship or belief in Christ by ripping out the foundation of the doctrine just because I disagree with parts of it. And I have seen it happen many times - Richard Dawkins does it all the time - he under minds people's faith by destroying their doctrinal foundation simply because he finds it to be silly.

The Catholic Church isn't Jesus. The Catholic Church didn't die for you.

I will not argue that.

You keep your faith in Jesus. You want to please the Lord, right? So do what the Bible says, and not what the Catholic Church says.

Here's the problem you do not understand; you are proceeding on the assumption that I am indoctrinated by my church and if I simply opened my eyes by leaving the church, I would see the Bible for what it really is - just like you do. Unfortunately, you have no idea that you are also interpreting the Bible according to the tradition of the people who have taught you hermenutics. You also rely on teachers and concordances and commentaries from your own tradition, which claim to teach you the Bible, plainly. This is not true - but they have taught you to believe it - the fact is, you didn't even know that you are a Protestant until I told you. One of the saddest parts of being a Protestant is not learning church history - they have a great tradition of teaching the Bible, but discount the 1500 years between Christ and Luther.


There are a lot of false teachings of the Catholic Church, one of them is that the Pope is called "Holy Father." "Holy Father" is a name only reserved for God. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can stay in a religion that does such things.

The titles of father and teacher are also condemned in the Bible. Catholics rely on Sacred Tradition and the Bible as authoritative. We do what the early church did as long as it it not contradicted in the Bible. Now, I have not heard the Holy Father title, but I have heard others. The Pope is a man. His office is Holy because it was set up by God. Acceptance of the Pope doesn't define you as a Catholic, nor does it interfere with salvation. Catholics venerate the office of Pope, but they will not be damned if they do not. Hardly any Popes have been considered Saints - it is the office, not the man.

If you desire Jesus, and you find yourself in a religion that is not of the truth, then repent and go on.

Indeed. I did that 10 years ago.

You aren't suppose to loose your faith, but your faith should grow when you accept the truth. The Truth should make you feel closer to God. Please keep the communication going. Okay?

I will - as long as they let us talk. There is no comparison between my prayer life as a Protestant and now as a Catholic - it is sublime. It is body and soul - thought, emotion, and action - it is never ending. It is diverse and personal; dynamic and disciplined......alive.
 

Anastacia

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Hello Anastacia,

Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it ever said that Jesus is the Church. Jesus is the Head of the Church. Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say that the Church died for us. We have always taught that it was Christ who died on the cross. By pleasing the Lord, Catholics also do what the Church tells us because Christ is the Head of the Church and is the one in charge. Nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say that the Pope is the Head of the Church. I would never tell you to leave your Christian denomination nor would I put it down in any way. You are obviously happy in your faith just as I am happy in mine. Communication between Christians regardless of what denomination is always good because we can always learn from each other.

We also quote from scripture, and I think that it can be proven through Scripture that there are indeed two kinds of bowing that is recognized in Scripture - a bowing that is done in worship and a bowing that is done as a sign of respect. Therefore, because you bow to nothing, you are following the Bible. And because we bow as a sign of respect, we are also following the Bible. Both of us follow the Bible. In regards to idoltry, only God can judge our hearts. No human on earth can determine for certain whether this person loves money more than God or that person is bowing in worship rather than bowing out of respect. Only God can determine that because only He can see what is inside the human heart; therefore, we leave the judgement of idoltry to Him rather than accuse one another of it. Also, it seems that both Protestants and Catholics do not take the entire first commandment literally because Protestants have images of their loved ones in their homes and even built statues of the Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, etc. to remember these famous men. Catholics have images of their loved ones in their Churches as well. So, on this respect, we are the same.

In Christ,
Selene



Selene, You misunderstand the scriptures. So why wouldn't you mix up what I said? I was talking to aspen about people not losing their faith when truth about the Catholic religion is revealed.

You say no where in the Catholic teaching does it say that the Pope is the head of the church. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church calls the Pope and the Bishops "the vicar of Christ."

I love talking about God's Truth. I also like exposing false doctrines. The Catholic religion has a lot of them.

You keep trying to defend your type of bowing. Just don't bow to the statues, don't bow any kind of bow. It's not hard to understand. And why are you trying to "respect" a statue?

Again, it is unspiritual to bring up dolls and toy trucks when explaining the commands of God. We don't bow to these things either.
 

aspen

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Selene, You misunderstand the scriptures. So why wouldn't you mix up what I said? I was talking to aspen about people not losing their faith when truth about the Catholic religion is revealed.


Everyone misreads posts sometimes....not a big deal. I really respect Selene's understanding of Catholic teachings and the scriptures.

Again, it is unspiritual to bring up dolls and toy trucks when explaining the commands of God. We don't bow to these things either.


I think Selene has made an important point you are failing to recognize. The verse condemns making any image - there is nothing unspiritual about challenging you with this verse - I think you need to explain it. We take pictures all the time - that is creating an image - the Amish recognize this - and they take it literally.
 
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