Questions For A Catholic

aspen · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
Texus - there is so much to comment on in your posts - I think Selene and I are going to address each one individually and that is going to make it difficult to follow up. I think I will pick on of your questions and we can talk about it.

2. Prayer to the Saints: If you believe that Christ is the only mediator as you pointed out, then why do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why not go directly to God Himself and pray to Him directly?

You included a prayer to Mary that appears to be over the top, but is actually quite common in the liturgy and monasteries that hold Mary in high esteem. I understand why you have some concerns about holding Mary up to highly and frankly some groups have been confronted by the Pope for going overboard. Admittedly, it was a real concern for me when I was checking out Catholicism before I joined.so I went beyond the typical Catholic reasoning back into history for answers. Unfortunately, I have two meetings I have to go to right now so I will return later.

Ok - I am back. As I was saying, it took more than the average answer for me to understand the big deal about Mary - although I understood why Catholics prayed to saints so let me deal with that now

1. Saints are not dead - Luke 20:38: He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

2. We are one Body in Christ - Romans 12:5: so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

3. There is no division - 1 Corinthians 12:25: so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.

4. Ephesians 4:4: There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

5. Romans 8: [sup]38[/sup] For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[sup][k][/sup] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, [sup]39[/sup] neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

6. Hebrews 12:1: Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

7. Revelation 6:9-11: [sup]9[/sup] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. [sup]10[/sup] They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” [sup]11[/sup]Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[sup][e][/sup] were killed just as they had been.

So here is the deal - We are one body with Christ - death doesn't divide us because time is really an illusion - we are actually all not created yet, living our lives and at the throne of God, right now - surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (the rest of our undivided Body). Time is only a product of space and living in this dimension. Also, God is the God of the living because we are already raised and worshiping Him. Jesus could talk with Moses and Elijah for the same reason. This is the same reason that the Eucharist is not a repeated sacrifice, but a one time event - it only appears like an echo (repeating) because of the illusion of time across space. God simply stretched creation out - creating space - this moment has happened before, now and later. Time and space are static to God - He is omnipresent.

So asking our friends and family for prayer is the same as asking the rest our Body for prayer - time and death are not relevant. Also, we do not pray to Judas because we do not believe he is part of the Body - he was pruned away from the vine. We could be wrong, but based on his life and death we have made an educated guess.

Ok - so that is saints - now I will work on Mary.

sniper762 · Dec 6, 2010

selene, when was adam created? app. what date?

aspen · Dec 6, 2010

Ok so I used to worry about Mary because at first I thought I was going to have to exalt her beyond the bounds of her humanity - as if she was deified. It was later that I learned deification is the end result of justification and sanctification. Soon after, I read "The Weight of Glory" a sermon by CS Lewis and he talked about the state of the risen human - fully justified and fully sanctified and he said that if we saw a person in that state right now we would not be able to stop from falling to our knees and would have to be stopped from worshiping them because of the glory God's work had completed in them. It was then that I realized that I was actually incapable of imagining how glorious Mary really is because of the finished work of God in her soul and heart - and then I thought - how much greater is God? Inconceivable for a mind, heart. and soul on Earth to imagine, let alone witness - we would surely die if we witnessed Him at this point in our lives.

So I stopped worrying about over emphasizing Mary because it is really impossible to over emphasize any heavenly being - or the finished state of each other - which was Lewis' reason for treating each other well on Earth because we have no idea how incredible the person we are interacting with is going to be / is now in Heaven. I also noticed that every prayer and thought I had - every verse that I read and meditated on about her never ended with her - it always pointed to Jesus.

Then I started look into history - the Orthodox Church and early Eastern Fathers defined Mary as the Theolokos or 'Christ bearer' and started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless to make such on act of obedience and carry the Lord in her womb - the based this idea on the greeting that she received from [font="arial]Gabriel[/font] - 'Hail Mary! blessed art thou among women'. So then I struggled with the idea that she is sinless because I came from a Calvinist background which emphasized human depravity. But then I learned that the doctrine of total depravity was a departure from Christian doctrine - that we were created good, but had a tendency towards sin. I also realized that other people are born without the capacity to commit sin - cognitively impaired and small children - and being sinless was not what set Jesus apart - it was His capacity to resist all temptation - He was the perfect sacrifice because He never acted out sin, not because of the fact that He was born without it.[/color][/size]

[size="3"]So - that was part of my thought process and prayer surrounding the doctrine of Mary. As far as that prayer that was posted about Mary - it is a love song - we are called to love one another. We I realized that I was free to love Mary and the rest of the Christian Body it [font="arial]strengthened[/font] and magnified my love for the rest of humanity.

Selene · Dec 6, 2010

sniper762 said:
selene, when was adam created? app. what date?

Hello Sniper,

I don't understand what does this have to do with Catholicism. Do you have a question for Catholics that pertains to our faith? That is what this thread is about.

In Christ,
Selene

Anastacia · Dec 6, 2010

Catholics say that communing with the saints who passed are no different from asking a family relative or friend to pray for you. That is not true. Catholics pray to Catholic saints. They don't just ask them to pray for them, they PRAY to them and ask for things that they should only be asking God---through Jesus. We don't get on our knees and recite a prayer pleading to our spouse or friend! Anyone can do a Google search for prayers to Catholic Saints, they can read how wrong these prayers are.

And Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. The Catholics are taught and believe that if they go to Mary with their request, she will then ask Jesus for something for you, and they say...that Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother! That is a way Catholics believe they get their prayers answered.

When a person is saved…they have Jesus living inside them. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
Romans 8:27

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 7:25

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

I hope you really do carefully consider these scriptures. The Catholic Church teaches things against Jesus.

bud02 · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
Ok so I used to worry about Mary because at first I thought I was going to have to exalt her beyond the bounds of her humanity - as if she was deified. It was later that I learned deification is the end result of justification and sanctification. Soon after, I read "The Weight of Glory" a sermon by CS Lewis and he talked about the state of the risen human - fully justified and fully sanctified and he said that if we saw a person in that state right now we would not be able to stop from falling to our knees and would have to be stopped from worshiping them because of the glory God's work had completed in them. It was then that I realized that I was actually incapable of imagining how glorious Mary really is because of the finished work of God in her soul and heart - and then I thought - how much greater is God? Inconceivable for a mind, heart. and soul on Earth to imagine, let alone witness - we would surely die if we witnessed Him at this point in our lives.

So I stopped worrying about over emphasizing Mary because it is really impossible to over emphasize any heavenly being - or the finished state of each other - which was Lewis' reason for treating each other well on Earth because we have no idea how incredible the person we are interacting with is going to be / is now in Heaven. I also noticed that every prayer and thought I had - every verse that I read and meditated on about her never ended with her - it always pointed to Jesus.

Then I started look into history - the Orthodox Church and early Eastern Fathers defined Mary as the Theolokos or 'Christ bearer' and started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless to make such on act of obedience and carry the Lord in her womb - the based this idea on the greeting that she received from [font="arial]Gabriel[/font] - 'Hail Mary! blessed art thou among women'. So then I struggled with the idea that she is sinless because I came from a Calvinist background which emphasized human depravity. But then I learned that the doctrine of total depravity was a departure from Christian doctrine - that we were created good, but had a tendency towards sin. I also realized that other people are born without the capacity to commit sin - cognitively impaired and small children - and being sinless was not what set Jesus apart - it was His capacity to resist all temptation - He was the perfect sacrifice because He never acted out sin, not because of the fact that He was born without it.[/color][/size]

[size="3"]So - that was part of my thought process and prayer surrounding the doctrine of Mary. As far as that prayer that was posted about Mary - it is a love song - we are called to love one another. We I realized that I was free to love Mary and the rest of the Christian Body it [font="arial]strengthened[/font] and magnified my love for the rest of humanity.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

The only five places in the bible the word anti-christ is used. By toying around with the nature of Mary "her sinless flesh" you change the flesh nature of Christ. He came in the same flesh as us all. We are not born with an inherent sin we are born with the curse of death, inherent to all men from Adam. The day you eat of it you will surly die. His one sin lead to death passed on to all of his children.

[b]1) 1 John 2:18 [/b][sup]
18[/sup] Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John+2&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30565c"]c[/url]][/sup] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19[/sup] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
[sup]20[/sup] But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[sup][d][/sup] [sup]21[/sup] I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[sup]22[/sup] Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [sup]23[/sup] Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2) 1 John 4:3
[sup]1[/sup] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [sup]2[/sup] By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, [sup]3[/sup] and every spirit that does not confess that[sup][a][/sup] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

3) 2 John 7
[sup]7[/sup] For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [sup]8[/sup] Look to yourselves, that we[sup][b][/sup] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[sup][c][/sup] may receive a full reward.
[sup]9[/sup] Whoever transgresses[sup][d][/sup] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. [sup]10[/sup] If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; [sup]11[/sup] for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

sniper762 · Dec 6, 2010

selene, this thread is ask a catholic a question.

my faith and bible study tends me to believe that adam was created around a certain date.

it is my understanding that most christian theologians agree

i talked with someone on another board that said that catholics do not agree. thats why i ask the question

if you cant or wont comment, i'll understand

Anastacia · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
Then I started look into history - the Orthodox Church and early Eastern Fathers defined Mary as the Theolokos or 'Christ bearer' and started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless to make such on act of obedience and carry the Lord in her womb - the based this idea on the greeting that she received from [font="arial]Gabriel[/font] - 'Hail Mary! blessed art thou among women'. So then I struggled with the idea that she is sinless because I came from a Calvinist background which emphasized human depravity.

You said Mary had to be sinless?!? If Mary had to be sinless to have Jesus----then Mary's mother had to be sinless to have Mary! And not only that, Mary's mother's mother had to be sinless too. It is not biblical!

aspen · Dec 6, 2010

Anastacia

Catholics say that communing with the saints who passed are no different from asking a family relative or friend to pray for you. That is not true. Catholics pray to Catholic saints. They don't just ask them to pray for them, they PRAY to them and ask for things that they should only be asking God---through Jesus. We don't get on our knees and recite a prayer pleading to our spouse or friend! Anyone can do a Google search for prayers to Catholic Saints, they can read how wrong these prayers are.

First, you sound angry. Second, I am Catholic and I pray with saints as one Body. Third, where does it say in the Bible that we cannot pray to saints?

And Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. The Catholics are taught and believe that if they go to Mary with their request, she will then ask Jesus for something for you, and they say...that Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother! That is a way Catholics believe they get their prayers answered.

This is not dogma - it is a cultural belief and there is nothing harmful about it. I am Catholic and I approach the throne of God, not as an individual, but as part of the Body - Hell is radical individualism - Heaven is occupied by a whole - one Body at the foot of the Throne, as well as a Host of angels.

When a person is saved…they have Jesus living inside them. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

'Let us' is an important phrase - we are one Body.

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12

Indeed!

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34

Of course Jesus intercedes for us - He is the Head of the Body.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
Romans 8:27

Yep - that is what the Head does

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 7:25

He intercedes for His Body. All of our prayers are known by Him because we are apart of His Body. It is as if your foot was tickled and the impulse traveled to your brain, but faster - nerves are used in the way, but it is the head that decides what to do about it.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Yep. There is one mediator between the Body of Christ - full of all kinds of prayer and interaction - and God - Jesus who is the Head.

I hope you really do carefully consider these scriptures. The Catholic Church teaches things against Jesus.

The Catholic Church has taught me to rely on Jesus and participate in an intimate relationship with Him.

Peace

bud02 said:
The only five places in the bible the word anti-christ is used. By toying around with the nature of Mary "her sinless flesh" you change the flesh nature of Christ. He came in the same flesh as us all. We are not born with an inherent sin we are born with the curse of death, inherent to all men from Adam. The day you eat of it you will surly die. His one sin lead to death passed on to all of his children.

1) 1 John 2:18 [sup]
18[/sup] Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[sup][c][/sup] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [sup]19[/sup] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
[sup]20[/sup] But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[sup][d][/sup] [sup]21[/sup] I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[sup]22[/sup] Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [sup]23[/sup] Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2) 1 John 4:3
[sup]1[/sup] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [sup]2[/sup] By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, [sup]3[/sup] and every spirit that does not confess that[sup][a][/sup] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

3) 2 John 7
[sup]7[/sup] For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [sup]8[/sup] Look to yourselves, that we[sup][b][/sup] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[sup][c][/sup] may receive a full reward.
[sup]9[/sup] Whoever transgresses[sup][d][/sup] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. [sup]10[/sup] If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; [sup]11[/sup] for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Mary needed a Savior - just like we do.

sniper762 said:
selene, this thread is ask a catholic a question.

my faith and bible study tends me to believe that adam was created around a certain date.

it is my understanding that most christian theologians agree

i talked with someone on another board that said that catholics do not agree. thats why i ask the question

if you cant or wont comment, i'll understand

No one knows the date Adam was created - you are getting that information from a monk in the Middle Ages who guessed it to be around 6000 years ago. Based on the age of the Earth the guess was way off.

bud02 · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
Mary needed a Savior - just like we do.

Your changing the topic. We were looking at the claim; Mary is clearly defined by Catholics as being both sinless and born without the original stain of mankind inherent from Adam and Eve. That make her totally different from any other human, an alien. Adam is from the dust of the earth and Eve was from his side. Where did Mary come from?

TexUs · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
2. Prayer to the Saints: If you believe that Christ is the only mediator as you pointed out, then why do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why not go directly to God Himself and pray to Him directly?

I don't think I'd really have an issue (and I definitely couldn't form an argument against it, at least not off my mind) if that's all your doing.
Look at the catholic.org link I posted. Catholics are doing FAR more than, "Mary, please pray for me".

Do you personally not do this and you disagree with the RCC on this area or do you have some defense for it?

Selene said:
The angels and Saints in Heaven don't need our prayers because they are already in Heaven; therefore, we ask them to pray for us and for our brothers and sisters like Judas.

So prayer of believers on earth is ineffectual?
What happened to us being all one body together? Yet you just made a distinction between people dead and people alive.

Selene said:
As for Mary, it was Christ who made her special. One of the Ten Commandments of God is "honor thy mother and father." Christ fulfilled this commandment not just by honoring His Father ONLY. He also honored His mother. If He honored only His Father and not His mother, then He sinned. Jesus was obedient to His mother and honored her like a queen. Jesus was the perfect son for any parent to have. If Jesus did not honor His mother, then He sinned and broke the commandment.

And you are to honor YOURS... The commandment is not "honor Mary".

Selene said:
No, my brother, Christ did not entrust the Gospel to all men because the pagans did not have the Gospel until the Apostles came to them. He entrusted the Gospel only to the Apostles. It was the Apostles who brought it to the Gentiles.

And they DID that. Paul says it was brought to every creature under heaven and to all the world.
So why the Papacy? Seems that Paul would dub it a useless function.

aspen said:
Also, we do not pray to Judas because we do not believe he is part of the Body - he was pruned away from the vine. We could be wrong, but based on his life and death we have made an educated guess.

An educated guess on what?
Did he believe that Jesus was the Savior? I see absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest he didn't.

So you are OK with praying to dead relatives in the body of Christ?

aspen said:
So I stopped worrying about over emphasizing Mary because it is really impossible to over emphasize any heavenly being - or the finished state of each other

So you are OK with over emphasizing a dead relative, and praying to them?

Selene said:
started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless

WHAT!?!?!?!
For all have sinned...
There is none righteous...

How can you say that and possibly not come away with the conclusion that it's destructive heresy to the Gospel of Christ?
Bible>Catholic Tradition

Selene said:
But then I learned that the doctrine of total depravity was a departure from Christian doctrine - that we were created good, but had a tendency towards sin

The only departure from Christian doctrine is teaching that people have any good in them at all.
Romans 6:20; “When youwere slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.”

Romans 8:7; “The sinfulmind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Get the point?

Selene said:
I also realized that other people are born without the capacity to commit sin - cognitively impaired and small children

Nope, they're still evil sin machines like the rest of us, lest you contradict the gospel. The difference can be found in Romans 1... an apparent understanding of one's surroundings, first of all. If you can understand and see creation, you are without excuse. If you cannot understand what's been made clear, it seems that there IS an excuse or an exemption.
Somehow, God works these children and imbeciles through the blood of Christ. I know that it's through Christ alone, and I see an exemption here, so I can put two and two together. How exactly he works it, I don't know.

Anastacia said:
And Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. The Catholics are taught and believe that if they go to Mary with their request, she will then ask Jesus for something for you, and they say...that Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother! That is a way Catholics believe they get their prayers answered.

I agree.

I thought Christ destroyed the barrier between God and Man and gave us direct access to God.

bud02 · Dec 6, 2010

I'll save us both some time. You can't prove it and secondly the RCC gave up trying to use scripture to support it. So it came from tradition which IMO is contrary to scripture on several foundational issues.

I high lighted the bottom line from a Catholic resource. http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

The Bible Only?

Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Anastacia · Dec 6, 2010

aspen said:
My replies to aspen in blue.
Anastacia

Catholics say that communing with the saints who passed are no different from asking a family relative or friend to pray for you. That is not true. Catholics pray to Catholic saints. They don't just ask them to pray for them, they PRAY to them and ask for things that they should only be asking God---through Jesus. We don't get on our knees and recite a prayer pleading to our spouse or friend! Anyone can do a Google search for prayers to Catholic Saints, they can read how wrong these prayers are.

First, you sound angry. Second, I am Catholic and I pray with saints as one Body. Third, where does it say in the Bible that we cannot pray to saints?
It doesn't matter what you think I sound like, you won't believe me anyway that I'm not angry like you say. I'm speaking the truth. And you go against the scriptures when you PRAY TO "saints" and Mary. I already gave you scriptures that show you.

And Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. The Catholics are taught and believe that if they go to Mary with their request, she will then ask Jesus for something for you, and they say...that Jesus will not turn down a request from his mother! That is a way Catholics believe they get their prayers answered.

This is not dogma - it is a cultural belief and there is nothing harmful about it. I am Catholic and I approach the throne of God, not as an individual, but as part of the Body - Hell is radical individualism - Heaven is occupied by a whole - one Body at the foot of the Throne, as well as a Host of angels.
You say "this is not dogma"?! Is that how you treat the words of your spiritual leader? A Catholic Pope said that about Mary! You aren't doing a very good job trying to justify praying to saints and to Mary. Why else to you pray to them if not to get answers from Jesus, and God?

When a person is saved…they have Jesus living inside them. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

'Let us' is an important phrase - we are one Body.

Catholics PRAY TO dead saints and Mary. We are not even suppose to PRAY TO saints that are alive on earth.

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12

Indeed!

You say "indeed." But then you pray to Mary and the saints. That doesn't make sense. And, you don't even know for sure who is in heaven. Neither does the Pope who canonizes them years after they have died! The Bible says we who believe and obey Jesus are saints! It's not even biblical how and when the Popes give that name "saint".

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34

Of course Jesus intercedes for us - He is the Head of the Body.
Again, you go through saints and Mary too.

TexUs · Dec 6, 2010

"[font="tahoma][b]There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture."[/b][/font][/color]
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[color="#5D5D5D"]Wow. I really don't know how one can make such a statement against Scripture. Maybe one of our Catholic friends could help us out.

Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

Anastacia · Dec 6, 2010

aspen, on 06 December 2010 - 10:15 PM, said:

Then I started look into history - the Orthodox Church and early Eastern Fathers defined Mary as the Theolokos or 'Christ bearer' and started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless to make such on act of obedience and carry the Lord in her womb - the based this idea on the greeting that she received from Gabriel - 'Hail Mary! blessed art thou among women'. So then I struggled with the idea that she is sinless because I came from a Calvinist background which emphasized human depravity.

You said Mary had to be sinless?!? If Mary had to be sinless to have Jesus----then Mary's mother had to be sinless to have Mary! And not only that, Mary's mother's mother had to be sinless too. It is not biblical!

aspen, I just want to repost what I said here, to make sure you see it. So what do you have to say about it now? Are you sure you still want to believe that Mary was sinless?

Selene · Dec 6, 2010

sniper762 said:
selene, this thread is ask a catholic a question.

my faith and bible study tends me to believe that adam was created around a certain date.

it is my understanding that most christian theologians agree

i talked with someone on another board that said that catholics do not agree. thats why i ask the question

if you cant or wont comment, i'll understand

Hello Sniper,

There is nothing on Catholic teaching that gives a date as to when Adam was created. We know that Adam was created. When he was created is irrelevant to us. The important thing is knowing that God created everything in the universe.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene · Dec 7, 2010

TexUs said:
I don't think I'd really have an issue (and I definitely couldn't form an argument against it, at least not off my mind) if that's all your doing.
Look at the catholic.org link I posted. Catholics are doing FAR more than, "Mary, please pray for me".

When we ask say, "Mary, please pray for me," that is no different than you going to your friend and asking him to pray for you. We can also converse with Mary the way you would converse with your friend. God is the only one we pray to. The thing is when we have a conversation with Mary, you see it as "praying." How else are we supposed to be having a conversation with someone who is in Heaven? Would you rather have us look at a wall and talk to it?

Do you personally not do this and you disagree with the RCC on this area or do you have some defense for it?

The teachings of the Catholic Church clearly says to worship only God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church

CCC #2132: The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

So prayer of believers on earth is ineffectual?
What happened to us being all one body together? Yet you just made a distinction between people dead and people alive.

The prayers of our brothers and sisters on earth are good, but the prayers of our brothers and sisters in Heaven is better because they are closer to God and are already made righteous. As the Bible says: "the prayer of a just and righteous man is more powerful and effective (See James 5:16). Is there anyone more righteous than those people living in Heaven? Certainly not those on earth.

If you believe that people who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ will grant you eternal life just as He promised, then why do you think that those who died with Christ are dead? Did not the Bible say that those who die with Christ will be alive in Him? We are not speaking to dead people because there are no dead people in Heaven. We speak to people who have eternal life in Heaven. There are no dead people in Heaven because God is a God of the living, not the dead.

And you are to honor YOURS... The commandment is not "honor Mary".

The commandment says to honor your mother and father. Isn't Mary Jesus' mother? Therefore, Christ honored His Father who is God, and He honored His mother Mary in accordance to this commandment among the Ten.

And they DID that. Paul says it was brought to every creature under heaven and to all the world.
So why the Papacy? Seems that Paul would dub it a useless function.

How is it a useless function. It is because of the papacy that all Catholics are united under one and the same teaching. We are not divided as our Protestant brothers and sisters who have so many different sects.

So you are OK with praying to dead relatives in the body of Christ?

So you are OK with over emphasizing a dead relative, and praying to them?

They are not dead because Christ said that all who believe and have faith in Him will have eternal life. Do you believe in that?

As for the immaculate conception, which Aspen brought up, I can explain that in my next post as well.

In Christ,
Selene

aspen · Dec 7, 2010

Anastacia said:
aspen, on 06 December 2010 - 10:15 PM, said:

Then I started look into history - the Orthodox Church and early Eastern Fathers defined Mary as the Theolokos or 'Christ bearer' and started very early on realizing that she had to be sinless to make such on act of obedience and carry the Lord in her womb - the based this idea on the greeting that she received from Gabriel - 'Hail Mary! blessed art thou among women'. So then I struggled with the idea that she is sinless because I came from a Calvinist background which emphasized human depravity.

You said Mary had to be sinless?!? If Mary had to be sinless to have Jesus----then Mary's mother had to be sinless to have Mary! And not only that, Mary's mother's mother had to be sinless too. It is not biblical!

aspen, I just want to repost what I said here, to make sure you see it. So what do you have to say about it now? Are you sure you still want to believe that Mary was sinless?

Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

So, take note, this is the answer to Mary's sinlessness - I gave you a slightly different answer above because I have thought about this issue a great deal and as a counselor I have a slightly different personal understanding of the doctrine of Original Sin. Remember - these conversations are not designed to provide noncatholics with answers that are guaranteed to satisfy you, however this is the definitive answer provided by the Catholic Church. Therefore, please refer to this post if you feel the urge to ask the question again - there is too much interest in this thread for me to take the time to answer questions more than once.

Thanks and Peace

Here are some thoughts and scripture regarding the idea that all have sinned

Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

Anastacia · Dec 7, 2010

aspen said:
Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

So, take note, this is the answer to Mary's sinlessness - I gave you a slightly different answer above because I have thought about this issue a great deal and as a counselor I have a slightly different personal understanding of the doctrine of Original Sin. Remember - these conversations are not designed to provide noncatholics with answers that are guaranteed to satisfy you, however this is the definitive answer provided by the Catholic Church. Therefore, please refer to this post if you feel the urge to ask the question again - there is too much interest in this thread for me to take the time to answer questions more than once.

Thanks and Peace

aspen, I ask the questions knowing you can't give a biblical answer. The questions I ask you are educated questions. The Bible has many of these kinds of educated questions. Educated questions means I already know the answer, and I just want you to think about it.

Remember, you said Mary had to be sinless in order to be at birth with Jesus. You seem to of forgotten what you said. If we follow what you say about Mary being sinless---then with that reasoning---Mary's mother must of been sinless too, and so on.

Jesus was born in the flesh to a human mother....humans are not without any sin. Like another poster said.....if Mary was not human, than you are denying Jesus as being human.

Anastacia · Dec 7, 2010

To the Catholics---

Do these scriptures sound like Jesus wanted his mother to be exalted?

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. [sup]47[/sup] Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” [sup]48[/sup] He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” [sup]49[/sup] Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. [sup]50[/sup] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Luke 11:27-28 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” [sup]28[/sup] He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Did you see that? A woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed i sthe mother who gave you birth and nursed you." And what does Jesus say? He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

These scriptures should clearly show that Mary is not to be exalted in such a way the Catholics exalt her.

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