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deprofundis

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De Profundis, God says do not "bow." I guess you question God why He uses that word? Or you just don't like me taking God's Word seriously? You make excuses why you go against the Word of God....you bring up theatre, and the actors bowing to the audience.... The Bible tells us not to bow to the works of your hands. What don't you get about that? How hard is that to grasp? And have you really ever wondered why someone would go ahead and bow to a statue anyway?
I am wondering why you use the word bow when the word could be and has been translated both as "bow" and "worship," and further, why you presume the "bow" to be literal. If you're saying that the sin is the physical act of bowing, it opens up huge problems.

Of course aspen denies the Catholic religion is doing anything wrong when they bow to statues, but I will come back and correct people when they speak untruth about me and what I say. You don't think I have the right too? Aspen said false things about me, and I straight out told him he was lying. That's what happens when someone falsely accuses you of something----they get called up on lying. And he said some rude things to me, so why don't you make a little post telling him how wrong that was? Seriously, why don't you? You didn't think to, and that shows something about you and your post here to me. As for you saying aspen knows more about the Catholic religion than I do, you have no business saying that. As for when someone denies the Word of God here and there.....doesn't that show some of what is in their heart too?
I felt as though your tone became quite aggressive and somewhat rude before his became defensive and possibly rude, but I suppose that's all up to interpretation and I hope neither of you meant to sound that way. I was just trying to remind people that it can come across as such and we should try and keep debates polite and simple. I didn't mean any harm or to unjustly point fingers anywhere. I just felt the tone of your posts was more attacking than the tone of his, but if you didn't interpret it that way, you have my apologies, we all understand words differently.
I also didn't mean to say he knows more about any religious beliefs than you do, except his own. Aspen knows what he believes and who or what he worships. Finally, I don't think he's denying the word of God, I think he's taking a passage which could be not only interpreted, but even translated, in more than one way, and choosing a different one than you are. The Bible wasn't originally written in English, and words in any language can have not only several meanings, but a lot of different connotations. I don't think either of you is "lying" or ignoring His word, I think you're looking at it in different ways.

I my opinion your trying to distract from what goes on in your sanctuaries with this statement.
I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure I can really say exactly what goes on. All I'm saying is that I think interpreting the word "bow" so literally (especially, again, given that the same word can be and often is also translated as worship) is a problematic interpretation. To infer so literal a meaning of bow is to presume that it is sinful merely to make the wrong movements -- for any reason -- around a statue, but also (by implication) means that one could worship those false idols, so long as one stood upright while doing it. Somehow, I doubt the Lord finds a little kid posing for a silly picture by bowing to a suit of armour more sinful than a guy openly worshiping a statue, so long as the latter is standing. It's an extreme example, yes, but my point is that I don't think it's literally bowing that the Lord has a problem with, but the actual worship (regardless of how one stands) of a false idol.
Reading between the lines here I would say you feel it's alright as long as it's Mary or Jesus or perhaps some other "saint "
No, I'm saying that I don't think it's sinful to take a bow, alone, in any circumstance, I'm saying I think it's sinful to worship false idols. I also think it's pretty easy to bow without worshiping something, merely as a sign of honour and respect. This interpretation would also explain the difference between Abraham and John bowing to angels; both did the same action, so why were the results different, if it is the act of bowing, not the intention of the bow, that is sinful?
 

bud02

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Actually, he is correct. I have even given an example of Abraham bowing to the angels, and none of the angels told him not to. Anastacia and you do not care to hear about Abraham bowing to the angels in respect. And not one of you made any comment about it. Instead, you focus on St. John bowing to the angel where the angel tells him not to.

I missed it but Im not caught up on all thats been posted. I'll be here for a while longer if you want to post the verse.
 

Selene

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I missed it but Im not caught up on all thats been posted. I'll be here for a while longer if you want to post the verse.

Genesis 18:1-3 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.

Genesis 19:1-2 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth
and said, "My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the street."


Here you have, Abraham at the door of his tent, and God appeared to him there. But when Abraham saw three men (who were really angels as we later learned in the Bible), Abraham left God and went to those three men and bowed down to them to show them respect and hospitality. Then in the next chapter of Geneis, we have Lot ALSO bowing down to the angels. None of these angels told Abraham or Lot not to bow down to them. There is a difference between bowing in worship and bowing in respect.

I am from Asia, and in Asia, bowing is a form of respect and even a form of greeting. Jesus Christ was from the Middle East. And the Middle East is part of Asia.

In Christ,
Selene
 

bud02

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Genesis 18:1-3 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.

Genesis 19:1-2 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth
and said, "My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the street."


Here you have, Abraham at the door of his tent, and God appeared to him there. But when Abraham saw three men (who were really angels as we later learned in the Bible), Abraham left God and went to those three men and bowed down to them to show them respect and hospitality. Then in the next chapter of Geneis, we have Lot ALSO bowing down to the angels. None of these angels told Abraham or Lot not to bow down to them. There is a difference between bowing in worship and bowing in respect.

I am from Asia, and in Asia, bowing is a form of respect and even a form of greeting. Jesus Christ was from the Middle East. And the Middle East is part of Asia.

In Christ,
Selene

And just who was it that showed you that verse? Thats the LORD FYI. I'm not going to repeat it to you, I've already spoken about it in the understanding the trinity thread.
And by the way just how do you compare that to a lifeless statue. Genesis 19:1-2
Then in the day of reckoning let your idols of wood and stone guide you out of Sodom.
 

Selene

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And just who was it that showed you that verse? Thats the LORD FYI. I'm not going to repeat it to you, I've already spoken about it in the understanding the trinity thread.
And by the way just how do you compare that to a lifeless statue. Genesis 19:1-2
Then in the day of reckoning let your idols of wood and stone guide you out of Sodom.

The Ark of the Covenant is a box made of setim wood and gold (See Exodus 25). In other words, it is a box of wood and gold with two statues of angels on two sides. The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices to it and even bowed to it. So, tell me, did they worship this box with the statues of angels on the two sides of it or did they worship God? Which one is it? Answer the question. And by the way, notice that God did not punish them when they bowed to the Ark of the Covenant. So, answer the question.

1 Ch. 15:26 And it came to pass, when God helped the Levites that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, that they offered seven bullocks and seven rams.

2 Ch. 6:11-13 And in it have I put the ark, wherein [is] the covenant of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel. And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.
 

Anastacia

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My replies to De Profundis in blue.

I am wondering why you use the word bow when the word could be and has been translated both as "bow" and "worship," and further, why you presume the "bow" to be literal. If you're saying that the sin is the physical act of bowing, it opens up huge problems.
Yes, it is a literal "bow." DON"T BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS. Bowing is worshiping. Why else would you bow to a statue?! Do statues deserve to be bowed to? Stop trying to confuse what is simple and plainly written.

I felt as though your tone became quite aggressive and somewhat rude before his became defensive and possibly rude, but I suppose that's all up to interpretation and I hope neither of you meant to sound that way. I was just trying to remind people that it can come across as such and we should try and keep debates polite and simple. I didn't mean any harm or to unjustly point fingers anywhere. I just felt the tone of your posts was more attacking than the tone of his, but if you didn't interpret it that way, you have my apologies, we all understand words differently.
I also didn't mean to say he knows more about any religious beliefs than you do, except his own. Aspen knows what he believes and who or what he worships. Finally, I don't think he's denying the word of God, I think he's taking a passage which could be not only interpreted, but even translated, in more than one way, and choosing a different one than you are. The Bible wasn't originally written in English, and words in any language can have not only several meanings, but a lot of different connotations. I don't think either of you is "lying" or ignoring His word, I think you're looking at it in different ways.
I mean this in a very nice way when I say, please don't come on here and talk about my "tone." My tone is not inappropriate, nor is my tone the topic of discussion. And aspen knows how to speak up for himself. Would you like it if I got on a thread to talk about how I don't like your tone? I get it, you are a Catholic sympathizer. You want to stand up for the Catholic religion....I want to stand up for what the Bible says.

It doesn't matter that the Bible wasn't written in English. And apen was lying when he talks about me not being in reality, and other false and rude attacks. If he wants to attack me with false accusations...fine then, but be prepared to be told you're lying.

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure I can really say exactly what goes on. All I'm saying is that I think interpreting the word "bow" so literally (especially, again, given that the same word can be and often is also translated as worship) is a problematic interpretation. To infer so literal a meaning of bow is to presume that it is sinful merely to make the wrong movements -- for any reason -- around a statue, but also (by implication) means that one could worship those false idols, so long as one stood upright while doing it. Somehow, I doubt the Lord finds a little kid posing for a silly picture by bowing to a suit of armour more sinful than a guy openly worshiping a statue, so long as the latter is standing. It's an extreme example, yes, but my point is that I don't think it's literally bowing that the Lord has a problem with, but the actual worship (regardless of how one stands) of a false idol.
Why can't you understand that we are to take the word bow literally? Are you saying someone might accidently bow to a piece of stone or wood? And maybe they might accidently put a crown on it, and maybe accidently kiss the craved stone? Stop defending falseness.

No, I'm saying that I don't think it's sinful to take a bow, alone, in any circumstance, I'm saying I think it's sinful to worship false idols. I also think it's pretty easy to bow without worshiping something, merely as a sign of honour and respect. This interpretation would also explain the difference between Abraham and John bowing to angels; both did the same action, so why were the results different, if it is the act of bowing, not the intention of the bow, that is sinful?

You didn't answer what I asked before. Answer this, please: Do you think that a statue deserves respect? Do you think a statue deserves honor? Stop defending sin.
 

Selene

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And just who was it that showed you that verse? Thats the LORD FYI. I'm not going to repeat it to you, I've already spoken about it in the understanding the trinity thread.
And by the way just how do you compare that to a lifeless statue. Genesis 19:1-2
Then in the day of reckoning let your idols of wood and stone guide you out of Sodom.

I am still waiting for your answer, Bud02. You asked me how bowing to a lifeless statue is compared to Genesis 19:1-2 and then go on to say that next statement about idols of wood and stone.

God commanded the Israelites to make the Ark of Covenant, which is actually made of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it. The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices and knelt down to this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, and it was commanded by God. So, answer the question. Were the Israelites worshipping this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it or were they worshipping God? Which one is it? Are you going to tell me that God is really the wood and gold with the two statues of angels beside it? I already know why God commanded the Israelites to make an ark of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, but explain to me why God PERMITTED the Israelites to offer sacrifices and bow to the Ark. Explain that. I already know the answer for every Catholic knowledgeable in the Catechism knows this. Actually, this is very basic information for us because it is taught in elementary Catholic school.

But since it is you who accuse Catholics of idol worship, then explain why God commanded the Israelites to build something of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it and even allowed them to bow to it. I will be waiting for your answer.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Anastacia

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The Ark of the Covenant is a box made of setim wood and gold (See Exodus 25). In other words, it is a box of wood and gold with two statues of angels on two sides. The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices to it and even bowed to it. So, tell me, did they worship this box with the statues of angels on the two sides of it or did they worship God? Which one is it? Answer the question. And by the way, notice that God did not punish them when they bowed to the Ark of the Covenant. So, answer the question.

1 Ch. 15:26 And it came to pass, when God helped the Levites that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, that they offered seven bullocks and seven rams.

2 Ch. 6:11-13 And in it have I put the ark, wherein [is] the covenant of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel. And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.


In any case, even in your twisting of the scriptures, God DID NOT TELL ANYONE TO MAKE A STATUE OF JESUS, OR MARY, OR CATHOLIC SAINTS. NOR WERE ANYONE TOLD TO BOW TO THEM. Don't add to God's Word.
 

Selene

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Yes, it is a literal "bow." DON"T BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS. Bowing is worshiping. Why else would you bow to a statue?! Do statues deserve to be bowed to? Stop trying to confuse what is simple and plainly written.

In that case, I am also going to ask you the same thing that I asked Bud02.

God commanded the Israelites to make the Ark of Covenant, which is actually made of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it (See Exodus 25:10-18). The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices and knelt down to this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, and it was commanded by God (See 1 Ch. 15:26 and 2 Ch. 6:11-13) So, answer the question. Were the Israelites worshipping this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it or were they worshipping God? Which one is it? Are you going to tell me that God is really the wood and gold with the two statues of angels beside it? I already know why God commanded the Israelites to make an ark of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, but explain to me why God PERMITTED the Israelites to offer sacrifices and bow to the Ark. Explain that. I already know the answer for every Catholic knowledgeable in the Catechism knows this. Actually, this is very basic information for us because it is taught in elementary Catholic school.

But since it is you who accuse Catholics of idol worship, then explain why God commanded the Israelites to build something of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it and even allowed them to bow to it. I will be waiting for your answer.





In any case, even in your twisting of the scriptures, God DID NOT TELL ANYONE TO MAKE A STATUE OF JESUS, OR MARY, OR CATHOLIC SAINTS. NOR WERE ANYONE TOLD TO BOW TO THEM. Don't add to God's Word.

God said, Do not MAKE ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING ON EARTH. That includes the images of YOUR loved ones. Now answer the question. Why did God command the Israelites to make something of wood and gold with statues of angels beside it (Ark of the Covenant) and permit the Israelites to offer sacrifices and bow down to it. Answer the question.

And please do not tell me that you don't bow to the image of your loved ones because that is irrelevant. God's commandment says "Do not MAKE any likeness of anything on earth." (Exodus 20:4). You are already guilty of the first sentence in God's commandment.
 

deprofundis

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Yes, it is a literal "bow." DON"T BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS. Bowing is worshiping. Why else would you bow to a statue?! Do statues deserve to be bowed to? Stop trying to confuse what is simple and plainly written.

I don't think it's as simple or plainly written as you think. Several English translations use "worship" rather than bow. If this is the case, I don't know how certainly one can say bow is meant literally. I don't know if I'd personally bow to a statue, but I don't know if I feel it would be a sin to do so if one did not worship the statue.

I mean this in a very nice way when I say, please don't come on here and talk about my "tone." My tone is not inappropriate, nor is my tone the topic of discussion. And aspen knows how to speak up for himself. Would you like it if I got on a thread to talk about how I don't like your tone? I get it, you are a Catholic sympathizer. You want to stand up for the Catholic religion....I want to stand up for what the Bible says.

Again, I'm sorry to have offended. I'm just trying to keep the discussion civil. I'm not standing up for the Catholic religion, but I'm not standing against it, either. I believe your analysis is reductive and especially given the possible ambiguities of language, I would choose to refrain from judging others' opinions and interpretations as sinful. I don't think he's a sinner for bowing to a statue anymore than I think you're a sinner for not doing so or for not following any other aspect of the Catholic faith.

It doesn't matter that the Bible wasn't written in English. And apen was lying when he talks about me not being in reality, and other false and rude attacks. If he wants to attack me with false accusations...fine then, but be prepared to be told you're lying.

No, it wasn't, but the Greek word used can have both meanings almost equally aptly, although I'd translate it as worship before I would translate it as bow. I cannot read Hebrew, so I do not know about the Hebrew word used.


Why can't you understand that we are to take the word bow literally? Are you saying someone might accidently bow to a piece of stone or wood? And maybe they might accidently put a crown on it, and maybe accidently kiss the craved stone? Stop defending falseness.

To bow is "To incline the body or head or bend the knee." That sounds pretty easy to do without conscious intent to worship, if simply bowing is the sin. Secondly, is it idolatry to kneel at the food of my bed and pray because -- though I am praying to the Lord -- I am "bowing" to my bed by kneeling in front of it?

You didn't answer what I asked before. Answer this, please: Do you think that a statue deserves respect? Do you think a statue deserves honor? Stop defending sin.

Those figures they represent, no longer physically present, deserve honour and respect.
 

bud02

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I am still waiting for your answer, Bud02. You asked me how bowing to a lifeless statue is compared to Genesis 19:1-2 and then go on to say that next statement about idols of wood and stone.

God commanded the Israelites to make the Ark of Covenant, which is actually made of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it. The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices and knelt down to this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, and it was commanded by God. So, answer the question. Were the Israelites worshipping this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it or were they worshipping God? Which one is it? Are you going to tell me that God is really the wood and gold with the two statues of angels beside it? I already know why God commanded the Israelites to make an ark of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, but explain to me why God PERMITTED the Israelites to offer sacrifices and bow to the Ark. Explain that. I already know the answer for every Catholic knowledgeable in the Catechism knows this. Actually, this is very basic information for us because it is taught in elementary Catholic school.

But since it is you who accuse Catholics of idol worship, then explain why God commanded the Israelites to build something of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it and even allowed them to bow to it. I will be waiting for your answer.

In Christ,
Selene

I would Selene but it would mean teaching you the NT. I work Im tired. Theres been a change in my walk, I'm not teaching from scratch to every new acquaintance.
The waters are drying up Selene. From under every false prophet, every false " church " Just as Cyrus diverted the waters from under Babylon, then entered under the gate, the waters are peoples and nations. Good night I'll be back when I get some rest. The Lord draws the water out, will you take a drink or continue to hide in them.
 

Anastacia

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My replies to Selene in blue.

In that case, I am also going to ask you the same thing that I asked Bud02.

God commanded the Israelites to make the Ark of Covenant, which is actually made of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it (See Exodus 25:10-18).
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. Hebrews 9:1

Now, you are comparing the Holy Father's commands on how to build exactly, the earthy Tabernacle...you compare this to the Catholic's statues and paintings?! God did not tell the Catholics to make statues and paintings, nor did God say to bow down to them.



The Israelites offered incense and sacrifices and knelt down to this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, and it was commanded by God (See 1 Ch. 15:26 and 2 Ch. 6:11-13)
From the scriptures you gave...it does not say what you say it does. Sacrifices and incense was offered to God....not the statues of angels.


So, answer the question. Were the Israelites worshipping this wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it or were they worshipping God? Which one is it? Are you going to tell me that God is really the wood and gold with the two statues of angels beside it? I already know why God commanded the Israelites to make an ark of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it, but explain to me why God PERMITTED the Israelites to offer sacrifices and bow to the Ark. Explain that. I already know the answer for every Catholic knowledgeable in the Catechism knows this. Actually, this is very basic information for us because it is taught in elementary Catholic school.

Again, God instructed the building of the earthly Tabernacle. Men decided on the statues and painting to be venerated by the Catholic Church. Do you want to obey God, or do you want to obey men?

But since it is you who accuse Catholics of idol worship, then explain why God commanded the Israelites to build something of wood and gold with two statues of angels beside it and even allowed them to bow to it. I will be waiting for your answer.


See my answer above.




God said, Do not MAKE ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING ON EARTH. That includes the images of YOUR loved ones.
Answer the question.
You can't get much more unspiritual then what you said here. Do you bow to the pictures of your loved ones? Do you bow to your daughter's doll? Answer the question.


And please do not tell me that you don't bow to the image of your loved ones because that is irrelevant. God's commandment says "Do not MAKE any likeness of anything on earth." You are already guilty of this first sentence in God's commandment.
Do not make an image for worship.....do not make an image and bow to it. Why do you fight against the word of God?

 

bud02

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P.S Selene you would do well to listen to Anastacia, she is highly favored by God. I tell you the truth, I know this first hand.

And I'll leave you with a clue to understanding the difference between the old and new testaments. Babylon was a real place with a real river. The ark was a real Tabernacle where is the Tabernacle today?
 

Anastacia

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Thank you, my brother. My brother who is blessed by God, and highly favored. Love from me, in the Lord.
 

aspen

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Yes, it is a literal "bow." DON"T BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS. Bowing is worshiping. Why else would you bow to a statue?! Do statues deserve to be bowed to? Stop trying to confuse what is simple and plainly written.

I don't think it's as simple or plainly written as you think. Several English translations use "worship" rather than bow. If this is the case, I don't know how certainly one can say bow is meant literally. I don't know if I'd personally bow to a statue, but I don't know if I feel it would be a sin to do so if one did not worship the statue.

I mean this in a very nice way when I say, please don't come on here and talk about my "tone." My tone is not inappropriate, nor is my tone the topic of discussion. And aspen knows how to speak up for himself. Would you like it if I got on a thread to talk about how I don't like your tone? I get it, you are a Catholic sympathizer. You want to stand up for the Catholic religion....I want to stand up for what the Bible says.

Again, I'm sorry to have offended. I'm just trying to keep the discussion civil. I'm not standing up for the Catholic religion, but I'm not standing against it, either. I believe your analysis is reductive and especially given the possible ambiguities of language, I would choose to refrain from judging others' opinions and interpretations as sinful. I don't think he's a sinner for bowing to a statue anymore than I think you're a sinner for not doing so or for not following any other aspect of the Catholic faith.

It doesn't matter that the Bible wasn't written in English. And apen was lying when he talks about me not being in reality, and other false and rude attacks. If he wants to attack me with false accusations...fine then, but be prepared to be told you're lying.

No, it wasn't, but the Greek word used can have both meanings almost equally aptly, although I'd translate it as worship before I would translate it as bow. I cannot read Hebrew, so I do not know about the Hebrew word used.


Why can't you understand that we are to take the word bow literally? Are you saying someone might accidently bow to a piece of stone or wood? And maybe they might accidently put a crown on it, and maybe accidently kiss the craved stone? Stop defending falseness.

To bow is "To incline the body or head or bend the knee." That sounds pretty easy to do without conscious intent to worship, if simply bowing is the sin. Secondly, is it idolatry to kneel at the food of my bed and pray because -- though I am praying to the Lord -- I am "bowing" to my bed by kneeling in front of it?

You didn't answer what I asked before. Answer this, please: Do you think that a statue deserves respect? Do you think a statue deserves honor? Stop defending sin.

Those figures they represent, no longer physically present, deserve honour and respect.

I am not offended De Profundis - I believe you have made some good points.
 

Anastacia

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You didn't answer what I asked before. Answer this, please: Do you think that a statue deserves respect? Do you think a statue deserves honor? Stop defending sin.

Those figures they represent, no longer physically present, deserve honour and respect.


I want to say to you that Pagans claim the same thing---that the objects they pray to only represent their gods/goddesses.


As for you saying "those figures they represent, no longer physically present, deserve honour and respect," you are so wrong about Jesus not being present. For the Father and Jesus make their home with the people who obey Jesus' teaching. Now do you understand? Jesus lives inside those who love him. Why would we ever bow down to, or even look, or glance at an object craved from stone....when we have the Spirit of God living inside us.

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23.
 

aspen

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Selene - I hope you had a good celebration at Mass today for the feast of the Immaculate Conception!
 

deprofundis

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Dec 3, 2010
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I want to say to you that Pagans claim the same thing---that the objects they pray to only represent their gods/goddesses.
I don't see how this is related.


As for you saying "those figures they represent, no longer physically present, deserve honour and respect," you are so wrong about Jesus not being present. For the Father and Jesus make their home with the people who obey Jesus' teaching. Now do you understand? Jesus lives inside those who love him. Why would we ever bow down to, or even look, or glance at an object craved from stone....when we have the Spirit of God living inside us.
I referred to statues of Mary and the saints. You make a good point about the Spirit of God, though, for He is in everything, and everything is for His glory. I suppose this means there's no reason to bow or even glance at a statue, as you say, but as long as one sees the statue for the Glory of God, not to glorify the statue or its "maker" (for He is its true maker), it is not a false idol, merely a celebration of the Glory of His Spirit.

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23.
I agree. I think the only difference is on what, exactly, we take His teaching to be.

I don't know enough about Catholic doctrine specifically to continue very far with this, I just wanted to point out that there's more than one way to take the line of scripture, and I wouldn't be hasty to dismiss or condemn the beliefs of others. After all, it is His place, not ours, to judge.

By the way, in case my question was lost amidst the other discussions:
I have heard many (mostly, but not exclusively, Catholics) say that suicide is a sin for which there can be no forgiveness, or even that it is the only such sin. Do you believe this to be true?
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
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In my house
Now, you are comparing the Holy Father's commands on how to build exactly, the earthy Tabernacle...you compare this to the Catholic's statues and paintings?! God did not tell the Catholics to make statues and paintings, nor did God say to bow down to them.

For your information, God commanded statues and paintings in the temple. God commanded to make carved and molded garlands of fruit, flowers, trees, and angels (1 Kings 7:18, 36). He commanded that statues of lions and bulls be built to support the basins in the Temple (1 Kings 7:25, 29). He commanded that golden statues of angels stand over the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-20). He even commanded a statue of the bronze serpent to be built (Numbers 21:8-9). The Ark of Covenant is made of wood and gold with golden statues of angels. What's the difference between that and the statue of the bronze snake and the statues of bulls, lions, and angels in the temple? God commanded all these statues to be built. And here you are saying that God did not command to make any statues and paintings? You just went against what the Bible says.


From the scriptures you gave...it does not say what you say it does. Sacrifices and incense was offered to God....not the statues of angels.

No? Then what do you make of this Scripture below:

1 Samuel 4:3 And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the LORD smitten us to day before the Philistines?
Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, IT may save us out of the hand of our enemies.

"IT may save us? "Imagine that! The Israelites is saying to bring out this wood and gold with golden statues so that IT will save them out of their enemies hands. This wood and gold with statues of angels is going to save them from the hand of their enemies? Explain that.

You can't get much more unspiritual then what you said here. Do you bow to the pictures of your loved ones? Do you bow to your daughter's doll? Answer the question.

I do not bow to a doll, but I do bow before a picture of my mother as I pray to God for her. You would only see me bowing to a picture of my mother who passed away three years ago. What you do not see or hear are my prayers to God asking Him to keep my mother always in his kingdom. I also bow to my priest and kiss his hand because that is in my culture.

This is what King Solomon did with the Ark:

1 Kings 8:3-5 When all the elders of Israel had arrived the priests took up the ark, and they brought the ark of the Lord and the Tent of Meeting and all the sacred furnishings in it. The priests and Levites carried them up, and King Solomon and the entire assembly of Israel that had gathered about him were before the ark, sacrificing so many sheep and cattle that they could not be recorded or counted.

As you can see, God allowed sacred furnishings. And you wonder why we have sacred relics and furnishings? And as you can see, the Israelites were offering sacrifices before the ark. And as I pointed out to you earlier, God allowed statues of angels, lions, bulls and many engravings of flowers and trees inside the temple. And you wonder why we have statues and paintings in our Churchs? So, tell me, are they sacrificing sheep and cattle to some wood and gold ark with statue of golden angels or are they offering sacrifices to God? Which one is it?



Do not make an image for worship.....do not make an image and bow to it. Why do you fight against the word of God?

We have been telling you that we never worship those images. We worship God and God alone. The fact that you cannot see that the Israelites actually worship God and only God and not some wood and gold with golden statues of angels in 1 Kings 8:3-5 is not my problem. So do not judge nor condmen our beliefs especially when you cannot even see nor understand what God has permitted in 1 Kings 8:3-5 or in any of the Scriptures where He allowed statues to be built in His temple.

Selene - I hope you had a good celebration at Mass today for the feast of the Immaculate Conception!

Hi Aspen,

Yes, I did. :)

In Christ,
Selene
 
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