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TexUs

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Where in my post did I say that we ask Saul to pray for us? I said that we ask Mary to pray for us....the one whom you believe is DEAD despite that she had faith in Christ and Saul did not.
Please, please try to comprehend what I'm saying. I don't get the feeling that you're "getting" any of the points I'm making.


Let me explain this easier.


I asked, where does the Bible say we are to communicate (your words) with the dead?
Your argument is that we aren't, because they're not dead.


Now, I'm going to give you the ONE Biblical example we have regarding communicating with the Body of Christ beyond the grave.


Saul called up Samuel via a medium. Samuel was a prophet, there is no doubt he was part of the Body. You see that Samuel was pissed off about it. You also see that Saul was not in God's graces.


So the ONE TIME, a person in the Body of Christ was communicated with, the entire situation was negative.


So once more, is not communicating with those beyond the grave, not pleasing to God? This also follows numerous examples in Scripture telling those in the Body of Christ to not communicate with the dead! Yet you do this?
God is not dead. Jesus raised from the dead. There is a distinct difference between Christ and Mary in that Mary- did not raise from the dead.

Do you not know that in the Bible, the PROPHECY says that all generations will call Mary blessed (See Luke 1:48)
I guess one thing I can say I've genuinely learned from this discussion is that Catholics love taking Scripture out of context.
Let's look at Mary's Song, shall we?
My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”





Ask yourself, why is she blessed? Because she's the mother of Christ? No, because of WHAT HE HAS DONE. Not because of WHAT SHE HAS DONE, but because of WHAT HE HAS DONE. This is applicable to ALL in the Body of Christ.


Also, who was she exalting? What is the point of this song? To bless herself? No, it's abundantly clear her focus here was on the Lord.
















I also didn't miss the fact you ignored the scriptures regarding angels, the scriptures in James, Apostolic succession. But then again I guess if Scriptures don't support your position, it may be hard to do :p
 

Anastacia

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My replies to De Profundis in blue.[/color]

I don't see how this is related.

It's related because Pagans make objects with their hands and believe they are sacred; when they bow to them, they claim they are really bowing to the god/godesses they represent. That is not unlike the practice of the Catholics who bow to "holy images." We should not worship God as they (Pagans) do. Please see Deuteronomy 12:4. Also, have you, aspen and Selene forgotten that God says not to make anything and bow to it? How do you get past that? What is so hard about that?

Since you defend what the Catholics do, please do a study on the sons of Aaron. Tell us what Aaron's sons did, and what happened to them and why.
Don't add things for your form of worship that God does not command. See Leviticus 10:1 about the sons of Aaron - Nadab and Abihu.


I referred to statues of Mary and the saints. You make a good point about the Spirit of God, though, for He is in everything, and everything is for His glory. I suppose this means there's no reason to bow or even glance at a statue, as you say, but as long as one sees the statue for the Glory of God, not to glorify the statue or its "maker" (for He is its true maker), it is not a false idol, merely a celebration of the Glory of His Spirit.
I'm glad to hear that you think I make a good point about something. But, your point here is not well taken. Because God is in a tree....we are not to bow to trees, etc. And, I'm not talking about the fact that God is all around us....I'm talking about the Holy Spirit who is given to those who obey God. If you have the Holy Spirit of God living inside you, why would you bow to a statue? I can not even believe you can't see that.



I don't know enough about Catholic doctrine specifically to continue very far with this, I just wanted to point out that there's more than one way to take the line of scripture, and I wouldn't be hasty to dismiss or condemn the beliefs of others. After all, it is His place, not ours, to judge.

If you don't know enough about Catholic doctrine......then it was wrong for you to come against me. You don't regard the Lord's words as understandable, but I do. And since you argue against me by saying "it is His place, not ours, to judge".......why don't you not come here and judge me. And it's strange for you to join a debate, apologetic and discussion group and tell someone not to speak about what they believe. We are here to debate, argue and discuss.


By the way, in case my question was lost amidst the other discussions:
I have heard many (mostly, but not exclusively, Catholics) say that suicide is a sin for which there can be no forgiveness, or even that it is the only such sin. Do you believe this to be true?

We don't know the whole situation on such a person's suicide. We don't know if they had some mental illness. As for those outside the faith....we are not to judge them.
 

Anastacia

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My replies to Selene in blue.

For your information, God commanded statues and paintings in the temple. God commanded to make carved and molded garlands of fruit, flowers, trees, and angels (1 Kings 7:18, 36). He commanded that statues of lions and bulls be built to support the basins in the Temple (1 Kings 7:25, 29). He commanded that golden statues of angels stand over the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:18-20). He even commanded a statue of the bronze serpent to be built (Numbers 21:8-9). The Ark of Covenant is made of wood and gold with golden statues of angels. What's the difference between that and the statue of the bronze snake and the statues of bulls, lions, and angels in the temple? God commanded all these statues to be built. And here you are saying that God did not command to make any statues and paintings? You just went against what the Bible says.

Selene, God did not tell any Catholic how to make a statue of Jesus and Mary. God did not tell Catholics to makes statues of His Son, and place them here nor there in the churches. God did command how to build the earthly Tabernacle. God did tell Moses to make a snake. Do you really not know the difference between the commands of God from the commands made by men?


No? Then what do you make of this Scripture below:

1 Samuel 4:3 And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the LORD smitten us to day before the Philistines?
Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, IT may save us out of the hand of our enemies.

"IT may save us? "Imagine that! The Israelites is saying to bring out this wood and gold with golden statues so that IT will save them out of their enemies hands. This wood and gold with statues of angels is going to save them from the hand of their enemies? Explain that.

Your statues are not going to save you.



I do not bow to a doll, but I do bow before a picture of my mother as I pray to God for her. You would only see me bowing to a picture of my mother who passed away three years ago. What you do not see or hear are my prayers to God asking Him to keep my mother always in his kingdom. I also bow to my priest and kiss his hand because that is in my culture.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. Why do you pray to God for your mom when you pray to saints who have passed and ask THEM to pray FOR YOU?


This is what King Solomon did with the Ark:

1 Kings 8:3-5 When all the elders of Israel had arrived the priests took up the ark, and they brought the ark of the Lord and the Tent of Meeting and all the sacred furnishings in it. The priests and Levites carried them up, and King Solomon and the entire assembly of Israel that had gathered about him were before the ark, sacrificing so many sheep and cattle that they could not be recorded or counted.

As you can see, God allowed sacred furnishings. And you wonder why we have sacred relics and furnishings? And as you can see, the Israelites were offering sacrifices before the ark. And as I pointed out to you earlier, God allowed statues of angels, lions, bulls and many engravings of flowers and trees inside the temple. And you wonder why we have statues and paintings in our Churchs? So, tell me, are they sacrificing sheep and cattle to some wood and gold ark with statue of golden angels or are they offering sacrifices to God? Which one is it?


Again, you compare things commanded by God with things man dreamt up.


We have been telling you that we never worship those images. We worship God and God alone. The fact that you cannot see that the Israelites actually worship God and only God and not some wood and gold with golden statues of angels in 1 Kings 8:3-5 is not my problem. So do not judge nor condmen our beliefs especially when you cannot even see nor understand what God has permitted in 1 Kings 8:3-5 or in any of the Scriptures where He allowed statues to be built in His temple.

Of course you deny you don't worship statues when you bow and kiss them, and when you are told to venerate them, also when the Pope crowns them. Of course you are denying it, that's why I'm speaking up about God's word. You seem to forget what happened to the bronze snake when it had incense burned to it, yet Catholics can incense their statues, you say.


Do a study on Aaron's sons. Tell us what they did and what happened to them.

Don't add things for your form of worship that God does not command. See Leviticus 10:1 about the sons of Aaron - Nadab and Abihu.
 

deprofundis

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I have explained several times what is so hard about understanding your interpretation. I don't see any reason to select one translation over another, any reason to take that translation completely literally. The only reasons you've given me are tautologies with no regard to questions of context or translation I've made.

If you don't know enough about Catholic doctrine......then it was wrong for you to come against me. You don't regard the Lord's words as understandable, but I do. And since you argue against me by saying "it is His place, not ours, to judge".......why don't you not come here and judge me. And it's strange for you to join a debate, apologetic and discussion group and tell someone not to speak about what they believe. We are here to debate, argue and discuss.

I'm not commenting on Catholic doctrine, only on your translation and interpretation of the scripture. I'm not saying that you're wrong, either, I'm just saying that there's a couple different ways to look at it, and I don't think either way is Definitely Right or Definitely Wrong. Also, I'm not here judging you. I'm not calling you a sinner, a liar, or anything else, and I apologize if that is how I've come across.
 

Templar81

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Asking asaint to pray for you is like asking a friend to pray for you because the saints are already in heaven, so they are alive in the body of Christ, which consists of three realms;

The church millitant
This is us. CHristians who are still alive on earth.

The church Expectant
Those who have died in the faith of Christ but still have some unfinished business with regards to atoning for their sins. They are in Purgatory and will one day be let out to go to Heaven.

The church trimphant
Those who have their been through the first two or lived such a holy life that they have bi-[assed the second. To those in this realm which are recognised as having lived a holy life with call Saints (upper case), though all Christians are saints (lower case). Through miracles such as curing people or not rotting away when they die the bodily death they show that they are with God and are very much alive.

So if they are alive with God, and alive in the body of Christ then they are not truly dead and becasue of their closeness to God they can hear us.

Think of it this way.
If you go the king asking for a favour he will not listen to you but maybe if you have a friend who is close to the king then he can interceed on your part You know your friend is with the king because of the evidence that was left behind on earth like miracles at the tomb, the body doesn't rot, visions and other such things. Because of this evidence we know that this person has ascended into Heven and is with God

Now because they are not dead then we can't be communicating with the dead. It is wrong to use mediums and Deuteronomy makes it cklear that we souldn't do it and calls it a detestable practice. Samuael is ofcourse a prophet is pat of the body of Christ but since Jesus had not yet died and been ressurrected, let alone even born at this point so Samuel was not at that time part of the body of Christ. he was probably in Sheol.
 

Selene

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In my house
Selene, God did not tell any Catholic how to make a statue of Jesus and Mary. God did not tell Catholics to makes statues of His Son, and place them here nor there in the churches. God did command how to build the earthly Tabernacle. God did tell Moses to make a snake. Do you really not know the difference between the commands of God from the commands made by men?

Anastaicia, NOW you are focusing on the word MAKE, which God said "Do not MAKE any likeness on this earth. A snake, bull, lion, flowers, and trees are all likeness of this earth. An angel would be a likeness in Heaven. Well, we have statues of angels too. My sister, God allowed us to make statues of Mary, Jesus, and all the saints. Why? Because the First Commandment of God was NEVER really about statues. God already permitted statues to be built since the Old Testament.

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Do you see this Scripture above? Jesus compared Himself to a statue that God commanded Moses to make in the desert. Imagine He compared Himself to this statue? God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent and to lift it on a pole. Jesus was also lifted on a pole (which is the cross). And every Catholic Church has a statue of a crucified Christ on a cross.

Your statues are not going to save you.

My sister, you misunderstand Scripture if you really think that an ark made of wood and gold with golden statues on it was the one who saved the Israelites. It was not the ark that saved them. It was what was INSIDE the Ark that saved them. God dwelled INSIDE the ark. What any person would see are the Israelites sacrificing before the ark and bowing before the ark. What you do NOT see is God dwelling inside the ark, which the Israelites are really sacrificing to and bowing to.

In the same way, you see Catholics bow before a statue of Jesus. What you do NOT see are Catholics praying to Jesus. It was NEVER the statues that our hearts worshiped. It was Jesus whom we worship. You see Catholics bow to a statue of Mary. What you do NOT see are Catholics honoring Mary in their hearts. It is NEVER about the statue. It was what the statue represented. Furthermore, you can look at an image of your children. Do you love that image of your children. NO, of course not. It is what that image represented that you love. Is that so difficult for you to understand.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. Why do you pray to God for your mom when you pray to saints who have passed and ask THEM to pray FOR YOU

I speak to my mother many times, but when you see me do that, to you it would be "speaking to the dead.". After I pray to God for my mother, I also speak to her after that. But that is what you CANNOT see. You cannot see the heart of a person.

Of course you deny you don't worship statues when you bow and kiss them, and when you are told to venerate them, also when the Pope crowns them. Of course you are denying it, that's why I'm speaking up about God's word. You seem to forget what happened to the bronze snake when it had incense burned to it, yet Catholics can incense their statues, you say.

We deny worshipping those statues, and that is the truth. What you are doing is accusing us of lying as though YOU can actually see what is in a person's heart. I did not forget what God did to the bronze serpent. God destroyed that bronze serpent because the Israelites turned that icon into an idol. And how did God know that the Israelites were worshipping the bronze serpent? Because He is God and ONLY God can see the heart of a person. All the statues in our Churches are icons.

You see, the first commandment of God was NEVER about statues or about bowing. That was your error. It was never about statues because God had commanded statues to be built in the Old Testament. It was never about bowing because one would see the Israelites bowing before angels, men, and even before the ark, which is made of wood and gold with gold statues of angels.

The first commandment of God was really about IDOLTRY. And idoltry is not in the statues as you saw in the story of the bronze serpent. Idoltry is found in a person's heart, which YOU cannot see. An idol is much more than a statue, my sister. An idol is ANYTHING that one puts first before God. For example, if a person loves their car. They take care of it so much and don't even allow other family members to drive his car, then that person is guilty of idoltry. He loves his car more than God. If a person enjoys money and depends on it to get them out of a financial jam, rather than depending on God, that person is also guilty of idoltry. They worship money rather than God.

How many of us here can actually do what God commanded Abraham to do - to sacrifice their child? Put yourself in Abraham's shoes. If God told you to sacrifice your child to Him, would you actually tie your child up, take a knife without hesistation, and willing to plunge that knife into your child just as Abraham did before the angel stopped him? If you cannot do that, then your child becomes your idol. You see, we are supposed to love God more than our parents and our children.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me,

In Christ,
Christ
 

mcorba

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I would like to congratulate Aspen & Selene for their not-inconsiderable patience during a very lengthy thread, in which they have been continually attacked rather than asked questions, most of the time!

What a pity that some only wish to shoot down their interpretations or win points based on their own strong opinions, rather than listen to one another and follow what the thread is meant to be, which is an opportunity to discuss what Catholic belief actually is about.

This has often descended into misunderstandings, personal attacks or suggestion that what one person thinks is right, and others are wrong.
Well I m sorry to tell you that a lot of this commentary in the thread is about interpretation - I feel like setting my well education agnostic brother onto some of the semantic arguments I have read. He would add to the entangled ideas I have read.

Some of the arguing about bowing and idols is just chasing your tails I am afraid. The concept of the original thread has been buried under attempts at winning points in debate. Aspen and Selene wish to clarify Catholic positions, and they have tried to do this as patiently as they can.
Perhaps some should start a new thread entitled Attacking Catholic beliefs, or would the pleasure of arguing just not be the same?

I see a lot of language use that is not very Christian in apperance, and as a qualified linguistics teacher, I am well positioned to judge semantic and pragmatic meaning and inference. This is a pity. We should love our Christian brothers well before points scoring. In Christ, Mike
 

Anastacia

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I would like to congratulate Aspen & Selene for their not-inconsiderable patience during a very lengthy thread, in which they have been continually attacked rather than asked questions, most of the time!

What a pity that some only wish to shoot down their interpretations or win points based on their own strong opinions, rather than listen to one another and follow what the thread is meant to be, which is an opportunity to discuss what Catholic belief actually is about.

This has often descended into misunderstandings, personal attacks or suggestion that what one person thinks is right, and others are wrong.
Well I m sorry to tell you that a lot of this commentary in the thread is about interpretation - I feel like setting my well education agnostic brother onto some of the semantic arguments I have read. He would add to the entangled ideas I have read.

Some of the arguing about bowing and idols is just chasing your tails I am afraid. The concept of the original thread has been buried under attempts at winning points in debate. Aspen and Selene wish to clarify Catholic positions, and they have tried to do this as patiently as they can.
Perhaps some should start a new thread entitled Attacking Catholic beliefs, or would the pleasure of arguing just not be the same?

I see a lot of language use that is not very Christian in apperance, and as a qualified linguistics teacher, I am well positioned to judge semantic and pragmatic meaning and inference. This is a pity. We should love our Christian brothers well before points scoring. In Christ, Mike


Hi Mike. Would you mind telling us all what you think a hypocrite is? You come on only to attack other personally, you did not even talk about scripture...only that YOU believe that scripture can't be understood. You also joined a discussion, debate and apologetics group, yet you think that should now stop? You falsely and rudely accuse people here of just trying to score points---I guess you gave some "points" to aspen and Selene. Again, practice what you preach.
 
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bud02

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I would like to congratulate Aspen & Selene for their not-inconsiderable patience during a very lengthy thread, in which they have been continually attacked rather than asked questions, most of the time!

What a pity that some only wish to shoot down their interpretations or win points based on their own strong opinions, rather than listen to one another and follow what the thread is meant to be, which is an opportunity to discuss what Catholic belief actually is about.

This has often descended into misunderstandings, personal attacks or suggestion that what one person thinks is right, and others are wrong.
Well I m sorry to tell you that a lot of this commentary in the thread is about interpretation - I feel like setting my well education agnostic brother onto some of the semantic arguments I have read. He would add to the entangled ideas I have read.

Some of the arguing about bowing and idols is just chasing your tails I am afraid. The concept of the original thread has been buried under attempts at winning points in debate. Aspen and Selene wish to clarify Catholic positions, and they have tried to do this as patiently as they can.
Perhaps some should start a new thread entitled Attacking Catholic beliefs, or would the pleasure of arguing just not be the same?

I see a lot of language use that is not very Christian in apperance, and as a qualified linguistics teacher, I am well positioned to judge semantic and pragmatic meaning and inference. This is a pity. We should love our Christian brothers well before points scoring. In Christ, Mike

This thread is the result of Catholics coming here but never stating their complete faith. In fact avoiding direct questions about their faith.
If Selene and Aspen were forthright in the first place this thread would simply have been manifest else where. The proof of this thread is that behind all the lovely dovie lies the nature of faith. Its in stark contrast. But I would presume you to approve. Its a common trait today, a half truth or no truth so long as everyone keeps smiling is the proper course. As for bowing to idols I would think that a world vote would show that only Catholics believe they are not bowing to idols. As you say you see a lot of language that is not very christian in appearance, have you read the bible? Perhaps the Prophets would also taste a bit bitter to your refined taste as well. In leaving you are right it is a chasing of the tail. So why don't we ask the catholics just what they are doing here in the first place. All I wanted was an honest dialog and as this thread has proven it is a chasing after the wind. I'm a get to the bottom of it kind of person, more so in my faith. I don't tolerate a bunch of wo/men sitting around telling each other what they want to hear. Its called lying. People that care for someone else tell them the truth not what they want to here, so Aspen can take his lovey dovie theology to everyone of the prophets. The Lord Himself had zero tolerance for blind men. So back to the question just what were all you Catholics doing here? Being mute as their statues about their true faith?
 
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Anastacia

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Anastaicia, NOW you are focusing on the word MAKE, which God said "Do not MAKE any likeness on this earth. A snake, bull, lion, flowers, and trees are all likeness of this earth. An angel would be a likeness in Heaven. Well, we have statues of angels too. My sister, God allowed us to make statues of Mary, Jesus, and all the saints. Why? Because the First Commandment of God was NEVER really about statues. God already permitted statues to be built since the Old Testament.

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Do you see this Scripture above? Jesus compared Himself to a statue that God commanded Moses to make in the desert. Imagine He compared Himself to this statue? God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent and to lift it on a pole. Jesus was also lifted on a pole (which is the cross). And every Catholic Church has a statue of a crucified Christ on a cross.



My sister, you misunderstand Scripture if you really think that an ark made of wood and gold with golden statues on it was the one who saved the Israelites. It was not the ark that saved them. It was what was INSIDE the Ark that saved them. God dwelled INSIDE the ark. What any person would see are the Israelites sacrificing before the ark and bowing before the ark. What you do NOT see is God dwelling inside the ark, which the Israelites are really sacrificing to and bowing to.

In the same way, you see Catholics bow before a statue of Jesus. What you do NOT see are Catholics praying to Jesus. It was NEVER the statues that our hearts worshiped. It was Jesus whom we worship. You see Catholics bow to a statue of Mary. What you do NOT see are Catholics honoring Mary in their hearts. It is NEVER about the statue. It was what the statue represented. Furthermore, you can look at an image of your children. Do you love that image of your children. NO, of course not. It is what that image represented that you love. Is that so difficult for you to understand.



I speak to my mother many times, but when you see me do that, to you it would be "speaking to the dead.". After I pray to God for my mother, I also speak to her after that. But that is what you CANNOT see. You cannot see the heart of a person.



We deny worshipping those statues, and that is the truth. What you are doing is accusing us of lying as though YOU can actually see what is in a person's heart. I did not forget what God did to the bronze serpent. God destroyed that bronze serpent because the Israelites turned that icon into an idol. And how did God know that the Israelites were worshipping the bronze serpent? Because He is God and ONLY God can see the heart of a person. All the statues in our Churches are icons.

You see, the first commandment of God was NEVER about statues or about bowing. That was your error. It was never about statues because God had commanded statues to be built in the Old Testament. It was never about bowing because one would see the Israelites bowing before angels, men, and even before the ark, which is made of wood and gold with gold statues of angels.

The first commandment of God was really about IDOLTRY. And idoltry is not in the statues as you saw in the story of the bronze serpent. Idoltry is found in a person's heart, which YOU cannot see. An idol is much more than a statue, my sister. An idol is ANYTHING that one puts first before God. For example, if a person loves their car. They take care of it so much and don't even allow other family members to drive his car, then that person is guilty of idoltry. He loves his car more than God. If a person enjoys money and depends on it to get them out of a financial jam, rather than depending on God, that person is also guilty of idoltry. They worship money rather than God.

How many of us here can actually do what God commanded Abraham to do - to sacrifice their child? Put yourself in Abraham's shoes. If God told you to sacrifice your child to Him, would you actually tie your child up, take a knife without hesistation, and willing to plunge that knife into your child just as Abraham did before the angel stopped him? If you cannot do that, then your child becomes your idol. You see, we are supposed to love God more than our parents and our children.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me,

In Christ,
Christ



Selene, I keep telling you that God did not command Catholics to make statues of His Son and Mary. Catholics making statues of Jesus and Mary is the idea and work of men. Since you keep insisting that we can make statues because God told Moses to make the snake and all the things for the earthly Tabernacle---Please read what happened to Aaron's sons.

You do know who Aaron is, right? Aaron was an important person, agreed? Even so, Aaron's sons were destroyed by fire from God. Again, God did not command Catholics to make a statue of His Son and Mary, nor any of the "saints."



Leviticus 10

The Death of Nadab and Abihu
[sup]1[/sup] Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.




 

marksman

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I already gave the defintion of vicar from Dictionary.com. You can look back in my post and re-read the definition of "vicar" or look it up in Dictionary.com.

As usual, you avoid the question to avoid the answer. I am not interested in vicars, I asked where all the pope nonsense is in scripture. As yet you have not answered the question.
 

aspen

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I would like to congratulate Aspen & Selene for their not-inconsiderable patience during a very lengthy thread, in which they have been continually attacked rather than asked questions, most of the time!

What a pity that some only wish to shoot down their interpretations or win points based on their own strong opinions, rather than listen to one another and follow what the thread is meant to be, which is an opportunity to discuss what Catholic belief actually is about.

This has often descended into misunderstandings, personal attacks or suggestion that what one person thinks is right, and others are wrong.
Well I m sorry to tell you that a lot of this commentary in the thread is about interpretation - I feel like setting my well education agnostic brother onto some of the semantic arguments I have read. He would add to the entangled ideas I have read.

Some of the arguing about bowing and idols is just chasing your tails I am afraid. The concept of the original thread has been buried under attempts at winning points in debate. Aspen and Selene wish to clarify Catholic positions, and they have tried to do this as patiently as they can.
Perhaps some should start a new thread entitled Attacking Catholic beliefs, or would the pleasure of arguing just not be the same?

I see a lot of language use that is not very Christian in apperance, and as a qualified linguistics teacher, I am well positioned to judge semantic and pragmatic meaning and inference. This is a pity. We should love our Christian brothers well before points scoring. In Christ, Mike

Mike, I appreciate your post. The discussion on this thread has been more emotionally draining than I thought it would be and I have been taking a break during the past few days. Hopefully, it will turn from an attack thread to simply a place for mutual respect and discussion. Thanks again for you insight. Also - I considered going into linguistics, but ended up in speech therapy.
 

aspen

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This thread is the result of Catholics coming here but never stating their complete faith. In fact avoiding direct questions about their faith.
If Selene and Aspen were forthright in the first place this thread would simply have been manifest else where. The proof of this thread is that behind all the lovely dovie lies the nature of faith. Its in stark contrast. But I would presume you to approve. Its a common trait today, a half truth or no truth so long as everyone keeps smiling is the proper course. As for bowing to idols I would think that a world vote would show that only Catholics believe they are not bowing to idols. As you say you see a lot of language that is not very christian in appearance, have you read the bible? Perhaps the Prophets would also taste a bit bitter to your refined taste as well. In leaving you are right it is a chasing of the tail. So why don't we ask the catholics just what they are doing here in the first place. All I wanted was an honest dialog and as this thread has proven it is a chasing after the wind. I'm a get to the bottom of it kind of person, more so in my faith. I don't tolerate a bunch of wo/men sitting around telling each other what they want to hear. Its called lying. People that care for someone else tell them the truth not what they want to here, so Aspen can take his lovey dovie theology to everyone of the prophets. The Lord Himself had zero tolerance for blind men. So back to the question just what were all you Catholics doing here? Being mute as their statues about their true faith?

Bud

Your accusation against me for not being "honest" about my faith is unfounded. Once again, I have never lied or hidden the fact that I am a Christian who attends a Catholic Church. As far as refusing to engage in Catholic / Protestant dialog before the thread, I was honoring the rules of this board, which state that any promotion of specific denominations over others violates the rules of the thread. I have also participated on other protestant threads and been kicked off for being Catholic.

Let's get to the real issue - the fact is, you were never interested in engaging in dialog with Catholics - on this thread or on the board. The real reason, which you have not denied is that you believe Catholics are a heretical church and have no business being on this board at all. Unfortunately, the admin doesn't share your opinion so it was you hope to goad catholic members is to arguments that would end, not it greater understanding between Protestants and Catholics, but the banning of Catholic members from the board.

I am a contributing member of this board because it is a Christian board and I am a Christian who happens to be Catholic. Despite the discomfort it causes you Bud, I am here to stay.
 

Anastacia

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Selene, You insist that the statues are just "icons" to stand in front of to pray, that they just "represent" the real people, to whom the prayers go to. You seem to discount the fact that the Catholic church commands the statues to be "venerated." So, your argument that only the real people they represent are venereated is a false argument---that is a false explanation you give of your religion's beliefs.

Also, notice how Catholics say they "venerate" and it is like 'honour' and 'reverence' but not like 'worship.'

But take a look at the defintion of 'venerate,' some other words to use are 'honour' and 'reverence' AND 'worship,' but the Catholics fight it and keep denying that that word can be used.

Notice also, how Catholics say their "statues" are "icons," and their icons are "representations" and "images" of the real people, but they are not "idols." If you look at the defintion of icon below, the definitions given are 'statues,' 'representative,' 'images' AND 'idols'!

From thefreedictionary.com


venerate verb respect, honour, esteem, revere, worship, adore, reverence, look up to, hold in awe My father venerated General Eisenhower.
mock, disregard, scorn, spurn, deride, dishonour, execrate



icon
noun 1. idol, hero, superstar, favourite, pet, darling, pin-up (slang) a fashion icon of the nineties2. representation, image, figure, statue, idol, likeness, effigy He came home with a haul of religious icons. like, iconomania
 

marksman

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Where does it say in the Bible that you are supposed to ask your friend Joe or Mike to pray for you?


Jas 5:16 Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much.

2Co 13:7 But I pray to God for you not to do evil, none. And not that we may appear approved, but that you should do the good things, though we are deemed to be reprobates.

Eph 6:19 And pray for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and in all perception;

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,

1Th 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of the calling and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

2Th 3:1 Finally, my brothers, pray for us, that the Word of the Lord may have free course and be glorified, even as it also is with you.

2Th 3:2 And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for all do not have the faith.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us; for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Jas 5:16 Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much.

3Jn 1:2 Beloved, in regard to all things I pray that you prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers.

No mention of praying to/for/asking mary for anything. Now answer my question, which again I noticed you have avoided
 

aspen

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As usual, you avoid the question to avoid the answer. I am not interested in vicars, I asked where all the pope nonsense is in scripture. As yet you have not answered the question.

hi - I saw your post and thought I would give you a quick answer. The Bible says nothing about an office of Pope. It does, however, suggest Peter's leadership in the early church.

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Mark 14:37
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour?[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Mark 16:7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Acts 1:13
When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font][font="Verdana][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Acts 1

[sup]20[/sup] “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[sup][e][/sup]

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[sup][f][/sup]

[sup]21[/sup] Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, [sup]22[/sup] beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

[sup]23[/sup] So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. [sup]24[/sup] Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen [sup]25[/sup] to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” [sup]26[/sup] Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]John 21:17
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana] [/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]
Matthew 16:18-20
[sup]18[/sup] And I tell you that you are Peter,[sup][a][/sup] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[sup][b][/sup] will not overcome it. [sup]19[/sup] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[sup][c][/sup] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[sup][d][/sup] loosed in heaven.” [sup]20[/sup]Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

No other disciple was singled out like Peter was. So, although the Bible does not specifically talk about the office of Pope, just like it doesn't tell us to celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25, build and meet in churches, meet together on Sundays, or which books to include in the NT; church history past down from the disciples to there disciple - the church fathers recognize that Peter was singled out from the disciples as a leader.

[/size][/font]
 

Anastacia

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[font="Verdana][/font][font="Verdana][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Acts 1

[sup]20[/sup] “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[sup][e][/sup]

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[sup][f][/sup]

[sup]21[/sup] Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, [sup]22[/sup] beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

[sup]23[/sup] So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. [sup]24[/sup] Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen [sup]25[/sup] to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” [sup]26[/sup] Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]

Those scriptures that you quoted in defensive of your false doctrine of "Apostolic Succession," those scriptures above are about Judas! Judas had to be replaced because of his betraying Jesus. None of the other apostles are to be "replaced"!
 

marksman

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With all due respect, it is not my fault that you are still of this world.

Of course we won''t say anything about the fact that was said to the pharisees. I am not a Jew or a pharisee so the comment is totally irrelevant. But then you seem not to worry about context if it gives you a good angle. ;)

Read your Bible. God told Moses to make a statue of a brass serpent (Numbers 21:8-9). You can tell God that He was wrong to do that. God bless,

You are an expert at finding all sorts of weird and wonderful texts to give your ideas credibility. So what you are saying is that God telling Moses to make a brass serpent so that those who looked at it would be healed is God's approval of the rcc making brass statues of saints to bow before.?

If that is the case, how many have been healed looking at them? One, 10, 1,000 or none?
 
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aspen

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Those scriptures that you quoted in defensive of your false doctrine of "Apostolic Succession," those scriptures above are about Judas! Judas had to be replaced because of his betraying Jesus. None of the other apostles are to be "replaced"!


The point was that Peter lead the effort to replace Judas.

 
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