Questions For A Catholic

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Selene

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It's not just because of incense! It is because they added to God's word their own man made ideas! What they did was not authorized by God---it was not commanded by God. Just like the Catholics and their statues and pictures that they bow to.

This is God's commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

What I emphasized in red is what YOU purposely and intentionally follow literally. The first sentence in the commandment is what you CHOSE to ignore simply because you violated that part in God's commandment. What you do is justify yourself by saying, "Oh...well....because I don't bow to the image of my loved ones....that makes the first sentence okay." If you are going to read the second sentence (which is in red) LITERALLY, then you should also read the MAKING of images LITERALLY. God did NOT say: "It's okay to make images as long as you don't bow down to it"; however, that is exactly how YOU want it to be. So why should I follow you when you purposely ignore the first sentence and only focus on the second sentence in the Word of God?
 

TexUs

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So go ahead and prove that He does not exist through Scripture.
Sure. I can prooftext Psalm 14:1 and come away with "There is no God".

The prophecy in the Bible says that "all generations will call her blessed." That prophecy was fulfilled in us and through us because we have always honored her by calling her "Blessed Mother." You, on the other hand, put her down.
Finish the statement. "all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name."
Why is she called blessed? Because the Lord has done great things for her. Is this not applicable to ALL Christians? Does this not mean that ALL Christians are blessed? And yet you single out Mary. I'm not disagreeing that it says she's blessed. I'm disagreeing with your usage of this as justification to why you elevate Mary.


Here's another example. "I am saved because Christ died for me a sinner". Under your logic, that'd mean only I and I alone was saved. Yet this applies to ALL Christians, PRAISE THE LORD!


Are you saying that David was wrong to address the trees to bless the Lord? If you do, then you go against Scripture. You don't know that what David said here in the Old Testament is also true in the New Testament.
So by the same token you don't know what David said about praying to angels (those in heaven) is true in the NT. So by your own logic, you're going against Scripture, are you not? You must take all of this passage and apply your argument to all of it, or apply it to none of it. Which is it?


David is saying the angels to praise the Lord. "Little children sing his praises"... Is this a command, am I addressing the little children, or am I making a statement? He's telling the servants to praise the Lord. He's telling creation to praise the Lord. You can't come away from this with support for "praying to" angels. His point is everything praises the Lord!


St. Paul left successors and so did the rest of the Apostles.
Yeap, they're called the body of believers. Do you have anywhere in Scripture that supports Peter naming anyone his "successor"? Or even in the RCC documents, for that matter? Note, I'm not talking about "traditions" but actual written text.


You must also prove that the verse in Timothy supports APOSTLES-ONLY, and in my opinion for that to hold true you must believe that the entire letter to Timothy is written only for apostles, do you believe that?


I see..... you are saying that people in Heaven are NOT righteous at all
You must resort to Strawman arguments to win your case? I never said that. I said they are not "more" righteous, please learn to read.
You also didn't even address anything in James for that matter... There's still nothing in that referenced passage to support "those in heaven are more righteous"- do you agree?
 

Anastacia

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This is God's commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

What I emphasized in red is what YOU purposely and intentionally follow literally. The first sentence in the commandment is what you CHOSE to ignore simply because you violated that part in God's commandment. What you do is justify yourself by saying, "Oh...well....because I don't bow to the image of my loved ones....that makes the first sentence okay." If you are going to read the second sentence (which is in red) LITERALLY, then you should also read the MAKING of images LITERALLY. God did NOT say: "It's okay to make images as long as you don't bow down to it"; however, that is exactly how YOU want it to be. So why should I follow you when you purposely ignore the first sentence and only focus on the second sentence in the Word of God?


Oh, you want to jump back now to this? But first we were talking about why Aaron's sons were killed. If you want me to try to explain all over again about not making images we can.
 

Anastacia

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This is God's commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

What I emphasized in red is what YOU purposely and intentionally follow literally. The first sentence in the commandment is what you CHOSE to ignore simply because you violated that part in God's commandment. What you do is justify yourself by saying, "Oh...well....because I don't bow to the image of my loved ones....that makes the first sentence okay." If you are going to read the second sentence (which is in red) LITERALLY, then you should also read the MAKING of images LITERALLY. God did NOT say: "It's okay to make images as long as you don't bow down to it"; however, that is exactly how YOU want it to be. So why should I follow you when you purposely ignore the first sentence and only focus on the second sentence in the Word of God?





You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, Deuteronomy 4:15-16


The Catholics did not obey God, they did make themselves icons/idols, they do make images. The Catholics did not watch themselves very carefully, they did become corrupt.
 

Selene

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Sure. I can prooftext Psalm 14:1 and come away with "There is no God".


And how is this evidence in Scripture showing that there is no God when in the first place, it was a fool that said it?


Finish the statement. "all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name."
Why is she called blessed? Because the Lord has done great things for her. Is this not applicable to ALL Christians? Does this not mean that ALL Christians are blessed? And yet you single out Mary. I'm not disagreeing that it says she's blessed. I'm disagreeing with your usage of this as justification to why you elevate Mary.


The point is that "all generations will call her blessed." The verse is not saying that this generation only is going to call her bless. It says "all generations WILL (future tense) call her bless." Because what God has done for her, "all generatins will call her blessed." In other words, you do not call her blessed. This prophecy is fulfilled in us and through us.

So by the same token you don't know what David said about praying to angels (those in heaven) is true in the NT. So by your own logic, you're going against Scripture, are you not? You must take all of this passage and apply your argument to all of it, or apply it to none of it. Which is it?
David is saying the angels to praise the Lord. "Little children sing his praises"... Is this a command, am I addressing the little children, or am I making a statement? He's telling the servants to praise the Lord. He's telling creation to praise the Lord. You can't come away from this with support for "praying to" angels. His point is everything praises the Lord!


The fact that He did indeed addressed the Angels in Heaven shows that all those in Heaven are alive, not dead as you believed. We speak to the Angels and Saints in Heaven - beings who are alive.



Yeap, they're called the body of believers. Do you have anywhere in Scripture that supports Peter naming anyone his "successor"? Or even in the RCC documents, for that matter? Note, I'm not talking about "traditions" but actual written text.

Yes, there are actually written historical records showing that Peter was the Bishop of Rome.


The Catholics did not obey God, they did make themselves icons/idols, they do make images. The Catholics did not watch themselves very carefully, they did become corrupt.

Why would I listen to someone who only listens to half of what God says?
 

Anastacia

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Why would I listen to someone who only listens to half of what God says?


You only replied with a personal attack. You should of used scripture. Here is another scripture for you...

Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deuteronomy 4:23-24


But the Catholics make statues and pictures anyway. And command bowing to them. Why do people do what God does not want?
 

Selene

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Yes, there are actually written historical records showing that Peter was the Bishop of Rome.


There are existing documents showing that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Near the end of the second century, St. Irenaus mentioned that Matthew wrote his Gospel "while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church." He siad the two departed Rome, perhaps to attend the Council of Jerusalem, and he noted that LInus was named as Peter's successor - that is the second Pope.

As for the statues and mosaic paintings, the early Christians who were being killed in Rome and hiding in the catacombs painted a lot of pictures of Jesus and the Apostles. I provided a weblink in one of my posts under this thread, but apparently no one cared to look at it.

But the Catholics make statues and pictures anyway. And command bowing to them. Why do people do what God does not want?

Here is a weblink showing that the Early Christians were making statues (icons) and mosaic paintings that goes all the way back to the FIRST CENTURY.

http://www.oldandsol...ticle1347.shtml



The truth is you delibertately ignore the first sentence in God's commands and only take the second sentence literally.



And to TexUs, I provided a weblink below about St. Irenaeus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
 

Anastacia

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Here is a weblink showing that the Early Christians were making statues (icons) and mosaic paintings that goes all the way back to the FIRST CENTURY.

http://www.oldandsol...ticle1347.shtml


Because people went against the Word of God and made statues and paintings since the FIRST CENTURY, that doesn't make it okay.




Here is one scripture to show why NOT to call any one "father". Matthew 23:9.

Here is a passage to show why NOT to make statues. Deuteronomy 4:15-17.

Here is one scripture to show NOT to call Mary a "Mediatrix". 1 Timothy 2:5.

Here are scriptures to show why not to say Mary was sinless. Romans 3:23.

Here are scriptures to show that their isn’t real presence in the bread and wine. John 6:60-64.

Here is a scripture to show that we don’t pray to priests in confessionals. Matthew 27:51.

Here is a scripture to show that infant baptism isn’t biblical. Acts 2:38.

Here is a scripture that shows not to venerate statues, images and relics. 1 Corinthians 10:14.
 

Selene

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Because people went against the Word of God and made statues and paintings since the FIRST CENTURY, that doesn't make it okay.




Here is one scripture to show why NOT to call any one "father". Matthew 23:9.

Here is a passage to show why NOT to make statues. Deuteronomy 4:15-17.

Here is one scripture to show NOT to call Mary a "Mediatrix". 1 Timothy 2:5.

Here are scriptures to show why not to say Mary was sinless. Romans 3:23.

Here are scriptures to show that their isn’t real presence in the bread and wine. John 6:60-64.

Here is a scripture to show that we don’t pray to priests in confessionals. Matthew 27:51.

Here is a scripture to show that infant baptism isn’t biblical. Acts 2:38.

Here is a scripture that shows not to venerate statues, images and relics. 1 Corinthians 10:14.

Actually, it shows that the Early Christians in the FIRST CENTURY understood God's first commandment. Unlike you, they did not just focus on only ONE sentence in His commandment, but on the entire message that God gave them.

That's the problem.....you only go by "sola scripture" (Scripture alone). We believe that the Bible is the word of God, but we don't worship the Bible like you do. We worship God and only God who was never a book. We understood that God is not a book and never was. You rely on a book. We rely on God, who existed BEFORE the Bible was written down. You expect a book to reveal revelation to you when a book cannot do that. Only the Holy Spirit reveals revelation and that is even written down in that Bible that you worship. You depend on the Bible to interpret things for you when a book cannot do that. We rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the true interpretation to us.....the same Holy Spirit that was given to the Church of which Christ is head of.
 

Thankful 1

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Actually, it shows that the Early Christians in the FIRST CENTURY understood God's first commandment. Unlike you, they did not just focus on only ONE sentence in His commandment, but on the entire message that God gave them.

That's the problem.....you only go by "sola scripture" (Scripture alone). We believe that the Bible is the word of God, but we don't worship the Bible like you do. We worship God and only God who was never a book. We understood that God is not a book and never was. You rely on a book. We rely on God, who existed BEFORE the Bible was written down. You expect a book to reveal revelation to you when a book cannot do that. Only the Holy Spirit reveals revelation and that is even written down in that Bible that you worship. You depend on the Bible to interpret things for you when a book cannot do that. We rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the true interpretation to us.....the same Holy Spirit that was given to the Church of which Christ is head of.


I am not trying to defend the previous understandings of the verses quoted. I am here to remind you that the Bible is much more than just a book. The Christian bible is the written Word of God. It is the Word that we are to live. If we don’t live that Word we will never come to know God. Then that Word will judge those people.



Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit to us to teach us to understand the written Word. Why don’t you all ask Jesus/Holy Spirit about your differences? Does it matter how one believes about Mary? Does the Catholic Church worship statutes? The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus the written Word of God says so, but ask Jesus to explain it to you if you are in doubt.

 

aspen

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I am not trying to defend the previous understandings of the verses quoted. I am here to remind you that the Bible is much more than just a book. The Christian bible is the written Word of God. It is the Word that we are to live. If we don’t live that Word we will never come to know God. Then that Word will judge those people.



Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit to us to teach us to understand the written Word. Why don’t you all ask Jesus/Holy Spirit about your differences? Does it matter how one believes about Mary? Does the Catholic Church worship statutes? The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus the written Word of God says so, but ask Jesus to explain it to you if you are in doubt.

The Bible is an inspired book - it is not an idol. The Bible, just like the law was created for people, not people for the Bible. We need to stop clanging and gonging like cymbals and start loving people. This is what were are called to do - not use the verses of the Bible to attack people. And as far as asking God if your understanding is correct - I already commented on the dangers of only asking God and not bothering to understand the context of the verses in the Bible.
 

Selene

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I am not trying to defend the previous understandings of the verses quoted. I am here to remind you that the Bible is much more than just a book. The Christian bible is the written Word of God. It is the Word that we are to live. If we don’t live that Word we will never come to know God. Then that Word will judge those people.



Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit to us to teach us to understand the written Word. Why don’t you all ask Jesus/Holy Spirit about your differences? Does it matter how one believes about Mary? Does the Catholic Church worship statutes? The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus the written Word of God says so, but ask Jesus to explain it to you if you are in doubt.

I agree. As I said in my post, the Bible is the written word of God, but we never worshiped the Bible. God is not the Bible and never was. As St. Paul says that scripture is there to teach, to reprove, to correct, and to instruct in justice. But in no way should the Bible be worshipped. When a person worships the Bible, then it no longer becomes the "word of God." It becomes an idol.

In the same way, when God commanded the making of the bronze serpent, that statue was an icon pointing toward God. When the Israelites worshipped the bronze snake, it turned the icon into an idol, and God destroyed it.
 

Anastacia

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Actually, it shows that the Early Christians in the FIRST CENTURY understood God's first commandment. Unlike you, they did not just focus on only ONE sentence in His commandment, but on the entire message that God gave them.

That's the problem.....you only go by "sola scripture" (Scripture alone). We believe that the Bible is the word of God, but we don't worship the Bible like you do. We worship God and only God who was never a book. We understood that God is not a book and never was. You rely on a book. We rely on God, who existed BEFORE the Bible was written down. You expect a book to reveal revelation to you when a book cannot do that. Only the Holy Spirit reveals revelation and that is even written down in that Bible that you worship. You depend on the Bible to interpret things for you when a book cannot do that. We rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the true interpretation to us.....the same Holy Spirit that was given to the Church of which Christ is head of.


Jesus is the Word of God. How are you going to know what the Word of God says if you don't read the Bible?

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The Catholic popes are not suppose to add to the word of God. God did not testify to the popes message of calling themselves pope and infallible, nor to the things the pope claims about Mary. The popes are not apostles who with the prophets and Jesus Christ himself the chief cornerstone laid the foundation.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? [sup]15[/sup] And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Catholics do not believe the scriptures are understandable, they rely on the pope to explain it to them, but we are told, from the scriptures, that even a child can understand.

2 Timothy 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, ....

The scriptures can be understood by the common people. We do not need Catholic popes to interpret the word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers! (Mark 7:14; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; Acts 17:11; Psalm 119:105)

Catholics don't trust the written word of God, they trust in men and the tradition of men. But Jesus warns against the traditions of men.


We do wrong when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Mattew 15:1-14; Colossians 2:8; Galatians 1:6-9; Proverbs 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jeremiah 10:23).

Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

[sup]9[/sup] And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[sup] [/sup]your own traditions!


Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”



Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deuteronomy 4:2




"Every word of God is flawless:

he is a shield to those who take refuge

in him.

Do not add to his words,

or he will rebuke you and prove you a

liar.

Proverbs 30:5-6
 

Selene

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Jesus is the Word of God. How are you going to know what the Word of God says if you don't read the Bible?

Jesus is the Word of God and He is a living person. I do read the Bible, but I know Jesus through His Church because the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth just as the Bible says. The Bible NEVER said that "Scripture" was the pillar and foundation of Truth. It specifically said that the Church was the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible is there as a guide so that one can refute, correct, and instruct in justice, but it was never the pillar and foundation of truth. That is found in the Church because Christ is the Head of the Church. Christ is not the head of the Bible. Christ from which all Truths come from made Himself Head of the Church, not head of the Bible.
 

Anastacia

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Jesus is the Word of God and He is a living person. I do read the Bible, but I know Jesus through His Church because the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth just as the Bible says. The Bible never said that Scripture was the pillar and foundation of Truth. It specifically said that the Church was the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible is there as a guide so that one can refute, correct, and instruct in justice, but it was never the pillar and foundation of truth. That is found in the Church because Christ is the Head of the Church. Christ is not the head of the Bible. Christ from which all Truths come from made Himself Head of the Church, not head of the Bible.


The church are true believers, not a building, not a religion, but people who are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
 

aspen

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I am not sure if the question on suicide every got addressed so I am just going to throw in my two cents - but first, here are some thoughts from the Catholic Church:
[font="verdana] [/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"]"Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of."[/size][/font]
[font="verdana] [/font]
[font="verdana] [/font][font="verdana][size="2"]"Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God."[/size][/font]
[font="verdana] [/font]
[font="verdana] [/font][font="verdana][size="2"]"If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal."[/size][/font]
[font="verdana] [/font]
[font="verdana] [/font][font="verdana][size="2"]"Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law."[/size][/font]
[font="verdana] [/font]
[font="verdana] [/font][font="verdana][size="2"]"Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."[/size][/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"]"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.[/size][/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"]Here are my thoughts:[/size][/font]
[font="verdana][size="2"] [/size][/font]
[font="verdana][color="#8B0000"]I think many people use Dante's Inferno to guess about the Catholic Churches stance on the fate of people who commit suicide because it paints such a vivid picture. The Catholic Church is pro-life in a very consistent way - no Euthanasia, Abortion, or death penalty, it doesn't claim that people who commit suicide are dammed. I believe that based on God's character and the many reasons people go to the lengths of ending their life that God will be faithful in His mercy and compassion.[/color][/font]
 

Selene

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The church are true believers, not a building, not a religion, but people who are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. I never said that the Church was a building. The Church is the assembly of people who believe in our Lord, and that includes the bishops, priests, and deacons who serve Him. This is why the Bible tells us to obey our Church leaders (in this case, the Pope, bishops, and priests) (See Hebrews 13:17). The Bible tells us to obey our Church leaders, and that is exactly what we do; therefore, we are not in violation of the Bible.
 

Thankful 1

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Jesus is the Word of God and He is a living person. I do read the Bible, but I know Jesus through His Church because the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth just as the Bible says. The Bible never said that Scripture was the pillar and foundation of Truth. It specifically said that the Church was the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible is there as a guide so that one can refute, correct, and instruct in justice, but it was never the pillar and foundation of truth. That is found in the Church because Christ is the Head of the Church. Christ is not the head of the Bible. Christ from which all Truths come from made Himself Head of the Church, not head of the Bible.



I am going to witness something to you that came from God. Jesus once told me to get more into the Word. I was a Catholic, and though about Jesus the way you do. I always thought of Jesus as the Word of God. My answer to Jesus because of my understanding was: “But I am into you” Jesus’ answer to me was: “Also the written Word.”



Jesus had taught me personally for almost a year before he told me to get more into the Word. I read the bible, but not much. Jesus has used the bible to teach me. It is a very important Word.



Also a personal relationship with Jesus is very important to one’s salvation.
 

Anastacia

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I agree. I never said that the Church was a building. The Church is the assembly of people who believe in our Lord, and that includes the bishops, priests, and deacons who serve Him. This is why the Bible tells us to obey our Church leaders (in this case, the Pope, bishops, and priests) (See Hebrews 13:17). The Bible tells us to obey our Church leaders, and that is exactly what we do; therefore, we are not in violation of the Bible.


You put down the written word of God! And I show you scriptures that say we are to check what we are taught with the scriptures, to see if what we are taught is true! You don't have an excuse to nullify the word of God for your pope----you have a Bible that you can read the words of God for yourself. If you reject the Truth for man's teachings....how will anyone answer for that?!
 

Selene

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I am going to witness something to you that came from God. Jesus once told me to get more into the Word. I was a Catholic, and though about Jesus the way you do. I always thought of Jesus as the Word of God. My answer to Jesus because of my understanding was: “But I am into you” Jesus’ answer to me was: “Also the written Word.”



Jesus had taught me personally for almost a year before he told me to get more into the Word. I read the bible, but not much. Jesus has used the bible to teach me. It is a very important Word.



Also a personal relationship with Jesus is very important to one’s salvation.

I agree that the Bible is important, but that does not mean that I should worship it. The Bible says to obey your Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17). And I agree that a personal relationship with Jesus is very important. He also told me to listen to His written word, and His written word says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and we are to obey our Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17). If we cannot obey the Church leaders whom God has called to spread His Gospel, what makes you think that we can obey God?

You put down the written word of God! And I show you scriptures that say we are to check what we are taught with the scriptures, to see if what we are taught is true! You don't have an excuse to nullify the word of God for your pope----you have a Bible that you can read the words of God for yourself. If you reject the Truth for man's teachings....how will anyone answer for that?!

Hebrews 13:17 does say to obey your Church leaders. There is a reason why this is in the Bible. God commanded us to obey our parents and to obey our Church leaders so He can prepare us for Heaven. If you cannot obey your parents, what makes you think that you can obey God? If you cannot obey your Church leaders who was sent by God, what makes you think that you can obey God? Did you think that in Heaven, you can just do whatever you want?
 
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