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Selene

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I'll put this in the form of a question--- Why does the Catholic religion venerate the remains of deceased Catholic "Saints"? Some time after the "Saint" dies, the dead Saint's remains are dug up and put in glass see through caskets, to be viewed and venerated. Sometimes it is a small box with just a skull, or a finger of the dead Saint. Please do not think that this just happens in some remote places around the world---this is being done in many places, for it is a Catholic practice to do this.


These two videos are only a few minutes in length. They show Catholic veneration of relics. WARNING! These videos are graphic pictures of decayed "Saints." I warn you before hand that they can be disturbing, yet, many Catholics, even their children, are brought to "venerate" the remains of the Catholic saints.


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Bizfmv202U0


http://www.youtube.c...sXdX27XU8k&NR=1



The Bible tells us the things of this world will be burned up, we are to live by the Spirit. So why then do Catholics practice the veneration of death and decay?

Yes, the Bible tells us that the things of this world will burn up, but that has nothing to do with the veneration of relics. As long as this world still exists, God can use us and the things of this world to carry out His Will. The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156. In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: "We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom."

Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John, and as you can see from history, the Early Church has practiced this. The reason we unbury them is because the Catholics look for miracles. If a miracle is found in any one of those relics, they are kept in a special place because the miracle indicates that God has used the relic to perform the miracle. In other words, the Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.

The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. We understand from Scripture that God not only uses people, but also objects to perform miracles. And Catholics do not worship the people nor the objects in which God uses to perform His miracles. We recognized that it was God who performed the miracles. I hope that answers your question.


 
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Anastacia

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Yes, the Bible tells us that the things of this world will burn up, but that has nothing to do with the veneration of relics. As long as this world still exists, God can use us and the things of this world to carry out His Will. The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156. In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: "We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom."

Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John, and as you can see from history, the Early Church has practiced this. The reason we unbury them is because the Catholics look for miracles. If a miracle is found in any one of those relics, they are kept in a special place because the miracle indicates that God has used the relic to perform the miracle. In other words, the Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.

The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. We understand from Scripture that God not only uses people, but also objects to perform miracles. And Catholics do not worship the people nor the objects in which God uses to perform His miracles. We recognized that it was God who performed the miracles. I hope that answers your question.





No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?

I can explain this, in fact I did earlier on in the thread but I can't find it now as this has got so big.

Basically the saints are the people who have made through to the Church triumphant and they are in ehaven now, so they are pat of the first ressurrection and the second death has no power over them. Many of these saints are recognised as such by Sacramental Christians because through miracles like healing or not rotting away they show that they are among the saints. As Saints they can help us here on earth and their remains are the means by which God works through them. If you read hagiographies and I have read a few; including St Cuthbert, St Wilfred and St Kenelm, then you see that these are all people who God has chosen and God works through them. After they die God continues to work through them.

Let us also remember that there is a big difference between worship and veneration and that popular relgion is from the people not the intellectutals. The veneration of saints and relics came about in a time when people couldn't just pick up a Bible like we can now and even in churches a Bible was a rare thing so stories of the saints were told as examples of how to lead good lives and serve God. Veneration is more about respect and recognition for a fellow believer who has gone before and is now in heaven with God.

I know what saints are---they are every obeying believer, and not what the Catholic church says they are. The Catholic church goes through their own made up doctrine of digging up dead people and canonizing them as "Saints." Did you look at any of the pictures of the decayed bodies that are set out for bows, prayers and kisses? Catholics also like to falsely claim that these "saints" bodies do not rot! Anyone can see these bodies have rotted. And there is NOT a big difference between veneration and worship---Catholics pray to, bow to and kiss these remains, and they even look for healings from these dead bodies. And yet, you say there is a big difference between veneration and worship!?! You said veneration of ssaints and relics came about in a time when people couldn't just pick up a Bible like we can now......so now people have access to Bibles, and they should know better about what God says to do and not!!!
 

Thankful 1

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No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?



I know what saints are---they are every obeying believer, and not what the Catholic church says they are. The Catholic church goes through their own made up doctrine of digging up dead people and canonizing them as "Saints." Did you look at any of the pictures of the decayed bodies that are set out for bows, prayers and kisses? Catholics also like to falsely claim that these "saints" bodies do not rot! Anyone can see these bodies have rotted. And there is NOT a big difference between veneration and worship---Catholics pray to, bow to and kiss these remains, and they even look for healings from these dead bodies. And yet, you say there is a big difference between veneration and worship!?! You said veneration of ssaints and relics came about in a time when people couldn't just pick up a Bible like we can now......so now people have access to Bibles, and they should know better about what God says to do and not!!!

(Matthew 7:3-5) ““Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
 

mcorba

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Really good answer, Selene. I guess to appreciate your response one has to have some respect and value for the Early Church Tradition.

It seems to me that your antagonisers have none. They set their stall up sometime approx 1500 years after Christ died, and take it from there, perhaps...

I dont pretend to understand why everything prior to that date is questioned, challenged, criticised or dismissed at Catholic nonsense.

It is certainly given no respect as being other peoples valued opinions, or practises with precendents, which you articulated well.
 

Selene

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Wow we had a kind of question and answer thing going on there for a while! :D

Yes, so much for being nice. She asked a question, and I answered it honestly according to Catholic doctrine, and instead of discussing or refuting what I posted, she ends up telling me what I should and should not do. :rolleyes:

No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?
 

Anastacia

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(Matthew 7:3-5) ““Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”


Are you judging me Thankful 1? Of course you are, that's why you posted what you did to me. Now stop falsely judging me. I took the plank (false religions) out of my eye, so I can try to help another see better. I was in the Catholic religion before. Now, this thread is not about me....I'm am not the topic. Now stop being the Shameful 1.

Yes, so much for being nice. She asked a question, and I answered it honestly according to Catholic doctrine, and instead of discussing or refuting what I posted, she ends up telling me what I should and should not do. :rolleyes:


Are you kidding? I did refute what you posted. Here, I'll post it again: No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?

Now where did I only tell you what you should and should not do?
 

Thankful 1

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Are you judging me Thankful 1? Of course you are, that's why you posted what you did to me. Now stop falsely judging me. I took the plank (false religions) out of my eye, so I can try to help another see better. I was in the Catholic religion before. Now, this thread is not about me....I'm am not the topic. Now stop being the Shameful 1.




Are you kidding? I did refute what you posted. Here, I'll post it again: No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?

Now where did I only tell you what you should and should not do?

If it seems that I was judging anyone, I am sorry. What I was thinking was how nit picking the questions about the Church were becoming. Then I wondered just how much scrutiny could the churches of those who are picking at the Catholic Church, take? I doubt any Christian Church can stand up to scripture.

 

Selene

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Are you judging me Thankful 1? Of course you are, that's why you posted what you did to me. Now stop falsely judging me. I took the plank (false religions) out of my eye, so I can try to help another see better. I was in the Catholic religion before. Now, this thread is not about me....I'm am not the topic. Now stop being the Shameful 1.




Are you kidding? I did refute what you posted. Here, I'll post it again: No where in the Bible does it tell anyone to either dig up decayed bodies, nor place them in glass caskets, nor to venerate them with bows, kisses, or incense. You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?

Now where did I only tell you what you should and should not do?


Anatascia, you were telling me what I should and should not do. You said, and I quote, "You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?" That is telling me what I should do. The fact that you did this shows the insincerity of an honest dialogue.

The Bible tells us that not all things are written in there (John 21:25). We have the written records of the Early Church that have been passed down to us. The Early Christian in the first century collected the ashes of St. Polycarp and treated it as more precious than stones and gold. In other words, we have not changed for 2000 years.
 

Anastacia

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If it seems that I was judging anyone, I am sorry. What I was thinking was how nit picking the questions about the Church were becoming. Then I wondered just how much scrutiny could the churches of those who are picking at the Catholic Church, take? I doubt any Christian Church can stand up to scripture.


You were judging. It's not nit picking. It's contending for the faith! I like to discuss false doctrines from other relgions too. But the Catholic religion stands out big and in the lead for falseness. I'm mean....how many other religions do you know who dig up dead decayed bodies and put them on display to be bowed to? Since you are trying to scold me for discussing, debating and arguing doctrines....what in the world are you doing on this site??? What's the matter? You not getting much attention in your threads were you call people condemned if they have even sinned one time after being saved???

Anatascia, you were telling me what I should and should not do. You said, and I quote, "You can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for yourself how evil it is?" That is telling me what I should do. The fact that you did this shows the insincerity of an honest dialogue.

The Bible tells us that not all things are written in there (John 21:25). We have the written records of the Early Church that have been passed down to us. The Early Christian in the first century collected the ashes of St. Polycarp and treated it as more precious than stones and gold. In other words, we have not changed for 2000 years.


No, I asked you if you can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for youself how evil it is? So, you don't even know when it is that someone tells you what you should do? And even if I did tell you what you should do---it wouldn't be bad!

So back to the decayed bodies....did you look at the pictures?
 

Selene

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If it seems that I was judging anyone, I am sorry. What I was thinking was how nit picking the questions about the Church were becoming. Then I wondered just how much scrutiny could the churches of those who are picking at the Catholic Church, take? I doubt any Christian Church can stand up to scripture.

Hi Thankful,

If you look back and read your post, all you did was quote scripture from the Bible. It is not your fault nor your problem that someone took direct scripture from the Bible personally.:)

In Christ,
Selene
 

Anastacia

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Hi Thankful,

If you look back and read your post, all you did was quote scripture from the Bible. It is not your fault nor your problem that someone took direct scripture from the Bible personally.:)

In Christ,
Selene

Are you okay? Thankful quoted me and made that scripture to me. You can't see that either? Again, are you okay?
 

Selene

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No, I asked you if you can't look at the displays of the dead and decayed bodies and see for youself how evil it is? So, you don't even know when it is that someone tells you what you should do? And even if I did tell you what you should do---it wouldn't be bad!

I do not tell anyone what they should believe in or what religion they should follow. This is not a thread where you are supposed to convince me that I am wrong and you are right nor is it a thread where I tell you that you are wrong and I am right. Nowhere in any of my posts under this thread have I ever stated that the Protestant religion is false. This thread are for those who want an honest dialogue and have questions about the Catholic faith.

Are you okay? Thankful quoted me and made that scripture to me. You can't see that either? Again, are you okay?

Yes, he quoted Scripture directly from the Bible to you, and how did you take it......? That was your problem.
 

Anastacia

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I do not tell anyone what they should believe in or what religion they should follow. This is not a thread where you are supposed to convince me that I am wrong and you are right nor is it a thread where I tell you that you are wrong and I am right. Nowhere in any of my posts under this thread have I ever stated that the Protestant religion is false. This thread are for those who want an honest dialogue and have questions about the Catholic faith.


The Catholic religion is false. I do not like what they do to God's Word. I do not like how they kept people (my parents and many others) from a relationship with Jesus Christ. I love God's Word, and I will continue to speak up about the Truth.
 

Selene

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The Catholic religion is false. I do not like what they do to God's Word. I do not like how they kept people (my parents and many others) from a relationship with Jesus Christ. I love God's Word, and I will continue to speak up about the Truth.

This is not what this thread is for. Your problems and issues have nothing to do with me or the Catholic Church. Your real problem is obviously your parents who chose to stay with a Church that you obviously hate so much.....so go talk to your parents about it.
 

Anastacia

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This is not what this thread is for. Your problems and issues have nothing to do with me or the Catholic Church. Your real problem is obviously your parents who chose to stay with a Church that you obviously hate so much.....so go talk to your parents about it.


Are you trying to tell me what to do? Are you not a hypocrite when you told me not to tell you what to do?

Is this thread for you to talk back and forth to me like you are?

I exposed a lot of false doctrine in this thread.

And you could not give any biblical answers to my questions.

Now stop talking back and forth to me like this.
 

TexUs

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And how is this evidence in Scripture showing that there is no God when in the first place, it was a fool that said it?
That's exactly my point. Context can change the entire meaning of a quoted text.
This is my point to you, when you quote text and ignore context, you do destructive things with it.

The point is that "all generations will call her blessed." The verse is not saying that this generation only is going to call her bless. It says "all generations WILL (future tense) call her bless." Because what God has done for her, "all generatins will call her blessed." In other words, you do not call her blessed. This prophecy is fulfilled in us and through us.
You just don't get it. I will try to explain this in simpler terms.

"I am a US citizen because I was born in the US".
You would say that I and I alone are a US citizen because of this statement. You are ignoring the latter half... "because I was born in the US". This condition is true for more people than I!!!!! Being born in the US applies to many people- thus the original statement: "I am a US citizen" applies to many people.

It's the same way here.
"I will be called blessed because of what Christ has done".
Christ has done these things for ALL of us. Thus, we are ALL blessed. This is not confined to Mary alone.

Thus this passage is terrible support for Mary being elevated above anyone else. And being this was apparently your last bit of evidence yet to be debunked, I ask why you still continue to elevate her above the status of any other follower of Christ? Please don't repeat arguments that have already been addressed. Saying "the sky is red" over and over and over again does not make it true.

The fact that He did indeed addressed the Angels in Heaven shows that all those in Heaven are alive, not dead as you believed. We speak to the Angels and Saints in Heaven - beings who are alive.
Once more, saying "the sky is red" over and over again does not make it true. PLEASE! STOP REPEATING your argument and intelligently read, understand, and respond to the questions and argument I have put before you. Go back and read it and respond intelligently.
Yes, there are actually written historical records showing that Peter was the Bishop of Rome.
"while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church."

THAT is your proof?
To prove the office of the Pope you require:
1) Peter being the first
2) Papal succession

You can't even prove the first from the works of MEN, much less either one from Scripture! So why do you continue to support it when it has zero support from either history or the Bible?

Why would I listen to someone who only listens to half of what God says?
It's called history. Catholicism became corrupt, or have the Catholics tried to erase and ignore these pages of history?


The church are true believers, not a building, not a religion, but people who are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
And I think this is a key, central issue that our Catholic friends don't seem to understand, at least the ones we are debating with on here, and namely, Selene. This is evidenced in the above quoted "proof" for Peter establishing the RCC.

As I argued strongly with aspen earlier, this denomination promotional crap needs to end. There is ONE church. The church is not a building.
Anytime you read the word "church", it needs to be understood as the body of followers of Christ, unless the context dictates it to mean a brick and mortar institution.

The Bible tells us to obey our Church leaders, and that is exactly what we do; therefore, we are not in violation of the Bible.
What about Jim Jones' followers? David Koresh?
If it is as you say, they are to blindly follow their Church leaders, then they should all be golden in God's eyes, correct? Yet this is not true. We're to follow them as long as they remain in the Word.
False prophets are spoken of in the Bible as LEADERS and yet they're leading people astray... That alone should cause doubt in your mind to the extent of "follow your leaders".


Anastacia, I have already shown you that the Early Church in the FIRST CENTURY made statues and had mosaic paintings.

Who cares?
Read any of Paul's letters, why don't you, and see if he was speaking of "you all are doing perfectly" or if he was teaching, rebuking, guiding, and training them because of issues they were having?

I think this whole sola scriptora thing might be another key issue. While church history can be informative, it is not authoritative.


Do you also think the early church was correct in calling the Jewish people murderers, haters of God? Lest you forget, bad doctrine and unsound teaching was so rampant that Paul warned them of false prophets. He also gave them rules for church discipline.

I didnt realise the level of animosity towards Catholics until I joined this forum! How saddening.
I wonder if some so called Christians on this site feel more animosity towards us than to atheists?
Actually I love talking with atheists because they'll at least shoot straight with you, and you don't have any expectations of holding scripture in high regard with them.
For professing Christians to treat Scripture the way that's been done here is absolutely terrible.

I have a feeling that selene and aspen think they know what they are doing but I have to tell them that they need to do a whole lot more study to be apologists for the catholic faith. All they are doing here is giving it a bad name.
I wholeheartedly agree.
 

Selene

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Are you trying to tell me what to do? Are you not a hypocrite when you told me not to tell you what to do?

Is this thread for you to talk back and forth to me like you are?

I exposed a lot of false doctrine in this thread.

And you could not give any biblical answers to my questions.

Now stop talking back and forth to me like this.

I am telling you to stick to the purpose of the original thread. I have already answered your questions about bones of saints and relics. If you forgot my answer, simply go back and read it. And whatever issues you have with your parents has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread.
 

Anastacia

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I am telling you to stick to the purpose of the original thread. I have already answered your questions about bones of saints and relics. If you forgot my answer, simply go back and read it. And whatever issues you have with your parents has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread.


Catholic religion teaches lies and that keeps people from a relationship with Jesus Christ. Now stop talking about my parents.
 

Selene

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That's exactly my point. Context can change the entire meaning of a quoted text.
This is my point to you, when you quote text and ignore context, you do destructive things with it.


You just don't get it. I will try to explain this in simpler terms.

"I am a US citizen because I was born in the US".
You would say that I and I alone are a US citizen because of this statement. You are ignoring the latter half... "because I was born in the US". This condition is true for more people than I!!!!! Being born in the US applies to many people- thus the original statement: "I am a US citizen" applies to many people.


TexUs, when you say, "I am a US citizen because I was born in the US" you are referring only of yourself. There are many people who are US citizens that are NOT born in the US. Some of them became US citizens through naturalization while others became US citizens through their parents' citizenship.

It's the same way here.
"I will be called blessed because of what Christ has done".
Christ has done these things for ALL of us. Thus, we are ALL blessed. This is not confined to Mary alone.
Thus this passage is terrible support for Mary being elevated above anyone else. And being this was apparently your last bit of evidence yet to be debunked, I ask why you still continue to elevate her above the status of any other follower of Christ? Please don't repeat arguments that have already been addressed. Saying "the sky is red" over and over and over again does not make it true.


In this context, Mary was called "blessed" because she was made the vessel to carry the Christ child in her womb. Did you not know that that was the reason why the Angel Gabriel called her "blessed among women" (Luke 1:28-30). The angel called her "blessed among women" because she was chosen to be the only one among all the women to carry Christ in her womb. St. Elizabeth also called Mary "blessed among women." (Luke 1:42). And why did you leave out the part that says "All generations...?" All generations will call her blessed is a prophecy and a prophecy that is fulfilled in us and through us because we have always called her the blessed mother.
 
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