Questions For A Catholic

Selene · Dec 14, 2010

aspen said:
It also makes sense that every church has sacred doctrine that is considered infaliable

Yes, what the Church teaches is very important. Of course, members of every church are not perfect. After all, Christ called sinners to be in His Church. All the Apostles were sinners, so it would not be surprising to find that every church has members who are sinners. We all need God's grace because only God gives salvation.

marksman · Dec 14, 2010

What about Jim Jones' followers? David Koresh?

Good point TexUs

Selene · Dec 14, 2010

marksman said:
John 1:16 And of his fullness have we all received, and grace for grace.The scriptures seem to think so.

Yes, and that is why we have always proclaimed to have the fullness of Christ.

marksman · Dec 14, 2010

I may be wrong but to say that only the Catholic church teaches the fullness of the gospel could be interpreted to mean that it claims to be the only true church. And the statement that Protestant churches teach enough of the truth to be Christian sounds very condescending. This isn't a Catholic vs Protestant issue for me. I am not a Protestant by your definition. Yes we do need unity. But we aren't going to have it when one church claims to be superior over another one. For me, all who seek to do the will of our Father in heaven are my brothers and sisters, no matter what church or denomination they are part of. This is how I know unity and love and it brings true peace to

Well worth repeating.

Mighty Bear · Dec 14, 2010

I was born catholic but I have nothing against all religions. Christianity is all about love.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

1 John 4:8 ESV Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Pretty Saint Philomena

marksman · Dec 14, 2010

I ended my post with "I will pray for you, and God bless." And this is your response? Is this what your church has taught you about loving your neighbor? You are having a bit of fun? So, calling people rude names is fun to you? Whatever happened to "love your neighbor?"

Your selfrighteousness is a great example to all of us. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

aspen · Dec 14, 2010

marksman said:
Well worth repeating.

I agree with the Pope - all people who follow the doctrine of the Trinity and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are part of the Body of Christ; despite the fact that a minority of my brothers and sisters do not recognize their Catholic brothers and sisters to be Christians.

blessings

Mighty Bear said:
I was born catholic but I have nothing against all religions. Christianity is all about love.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

1 John 4:8 ESV Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Pretty Saint Philomena

Great addition - thank you MightyBear!

marksman · Dec 14, 2010

You are correct. The Catholic Church has not changed for 2000 years. The dogmas that were passed were already a doctrine that all Catholics believed in already since the first century. That is why there never was any protest. The dogma only confirmed.

Incorrect as usual. In the original days, priests did not have to be celibate. Some pope, Gregory I think brought that in because he didn't like the priest giving land to their children. So there's one change.

In the middle ages, the pope invented the idea of paying for their salvation so they could raise money to build St. Peters. Prior to that they didn't have to. Change number two.

After Luther kicked up a stink about it he dropped the idea. Change number three.

Back in the early days, pope's used to bump off people that were a threat to their power. Today they don't seem to do that. Change number four.

At the second vatican council, pope John said that mass did not have to be in latin. Prior to that it always was. Change number five.

Until this council the priest was the only one who could serve mass. Today lay people can. Change number six.

Just a few to be going on with.

I've wondered about this....wondered if the Catholic religion started out correct but then became apostate, or, if they were false from the beginning. Sound like from what you say here they were false from the beginning.

It started out apostate because the bishop of rome decided he was top dog and made himself pope. This is exactly opposite to what Jesus taught. He said if you want to be great you have to be a servant, not a pope. The fact that they contradicted the teaching of Jesus shows that they were off the rails right from the beginning.

How did you come to be sole proprietor to the truth? Is it a heavy burden to carry?

No. The scripture says that we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. I am surprised you didn't know that.

Should we just listen to you to have our incorrect views fixed?

That would be a good start.

aspen · Dec 14, 2010

marksman said:
Incorrect as usual. In the original days, priests did not have to be celibate. Some pope, Gregory I think brought that in because he didn't like the priest giving land to their children. So there's one change.

In the middle ages, the pope invented the idea of paying for their salvation so they could raise money to build St. Peters. Prior to that they didn't have to. Change number two.

After Luther kicked up a stink about it he dropped the idea. Change number three.

Back in the early days, pope's used to bump off people that were a threat to their power. Today they don't seem to do that. Change number four.

At the second vatican council, pope John said that mass did not have to be in latin. Prior to that it always was. Change number five.

Until this council the priest was the only one who could serve mass. Today lay people can. Change number six.

Just a few to be going on with.

Hi Marksman - I am glad this thread is getting your mind focused on something that interests you during your recovery. I have been praying for you as soon as I heard. I am wondering if you simply wanted to point out some of the sorted history within the Catholic Church because it interests you or if you misunderstood Selene's point that the "Tradition" of the Catholic Church have not changed, despite the "traditions" with a small "t"?

marksman said:
It started out apostate because the bishop of rome decided he was top dog and made himself pope. This is exactly opposite to what Jesus taught. He said if you want to be great you have to be a servant, not a pope. The fact that they contradicted the teaching of Jesus shows that they were off the rails right from the beginning.

Well, I guess you share the same views about the Catholic Church as the LDS Church - that is it apostate. Here is the problem - you share many of the same doctrines developed by an apostate church. At least Mormons are consistent enough to reject all Catholic doctrines.

blessings

Anastacia · Dec 14, 2010

marksman said:
Thankyou Anastacia. it does have its bright side inasmuch as my daughter who has been living in London has returned home for good to look after her dear old Dad.

If you enjoy the comments I will keep going for you. The romans obviously don't like them as I guess they are too close to the bone. I have noticed that they are not that brilliant in answering your questions. I guess we must ask the ones they don't want to know about.

John 1:16 And of his fullness have we all received, and grace for grace.The scriptures seem to think so.

I'm so glad for you to have your daughter home for good, how wonderful. Oh yes, I have enjoyed your comments....comments such as yours here help keep me strengthened in the truth. Thank you for saying you would keep them going. I think we might of covered it all. We covered a lot of ground in this thread, and for that, I guess the Romans have a bone to pick with us. lol I hope we have helped even just one person know that the Catholic religion is not anything it set itself up to be. Very good to read what TexUs said too.

Anastacia · Dec 14, 2010

Mighty Bear said:
I was born catholic but I have nothing against all religions. Christianity is all about love.

So when the scriptures tell us to grow in knowledge....you think the knowledge part should be left out so that people can make up all kinds of religions?

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Colossians 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

I guess you want to discount these scriptures too?

Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. [sup]12[/sup] For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. [sup]13[/sup] The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Philipians 1:17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! [sup]9[/sup] As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. [sup]14[/sup] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [sup]15[/sup] It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Acts 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

And Peter warns us---

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. [sup]2[/sup] Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. [sup]3[/sup] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Mighty Bear · Dec 14, 2010

As a general rule, if something doesn't bother you then go ahead, the Father desires your happiness. This is for the rituals of the catholics.

Galatians 4:3-5 ESV In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. (4) But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, (5) to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

John 4:23-24 ESV But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. (24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Selene · Dec 14, 2010

marksman said:
Your selfrighteousness is a great example to all of us. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Peace Marksman. I'm glad to hear that you are recovering. I've been praying for you. God bless and I love you, my brother.

Mighty Bear said:
I was born catholic but I have nothing against all religions. Christianity is all about love.

1 Timothy 3:16 ESV Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

1 John 4:8 ESV Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Pretty Saint Philomena

Hello Mighty Bear,

I agree and I love the quotes you posted.

St. Paul says, that the greatest of all is love (1 Corinthians 13:13). Love is even greater than knowledge because God is love and there is nothing higher nor greater than God our Father (1 John 4:8).

In Christ,
Selene

Thankful 1 · Dec 14, 2010

Selene said:
Peace Marksman. I'm glad to hear that you are recovering. I've been praying for you. God bless and I love you, my brother.

Hello Mighty Bear,

I agree and I love the quotes you posted. St. Paul says, that the greatest of all is love (1 Corinthians 13:13). Love is even greater than knowledge because God is love and there is nothing higher nor greater than God our Father (1 John 4:8).

In Christ,
Selene

Love, is a verb. In order to love God one needs to hear his Word and live that Word.

Love is so easy to say, but to truly love is so much harder.

(James 2: `4-17) “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

Jesus told us:

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions

TexUs · Dec 14, 2010

Selene said:
That's because you asked him the wrong question. The question is not why Mary is blessed. The question should have been "Who" will call Mary blessed. The answer: All generations wil call me (Mary) blessed.

Once more, either you're truly ignorant or just refuse to see what I'm saying.
I 100% agree that everyone always will call her blessed- the question is WHY, and does the WHY apply to other people. This is a simple concept you can't grasp.

aspen · Dec 14, 2010

TexUs said:
Once more, either you're truly ignorant or just refuse to see what I'm saying.
I 100% agree that everyone always will call her blessed- the question is WHY, and does the WHY apply to other people. This is a simple concept you can't grasp.

We are all ignorant in the eyes of God - to claim otherwise is arrogant. Not everyone is addressed as "full of grace" or "the mother of our Lord"; Mary is unique in this regard.

blessings

TexUs · Dec 14, 2010

Has anyone pulled out Judges 5:24 yet? I think if Catholics were uniform in their teachings they'd also idolize Jael.
Or perhaps "blessed among women" doesn't mean the same thing as "elevated above all other women".

aspen said:
Not everyone is addressed as "full of grace" or "the mother of our Lord"; Mary is unique in this regard.

Oh so we are now moving away from the "blessed" argument since it has no legs to stand on and moving back to the "mother" argument and now a "grace" argument?

Well, the Grace one is easy enough to dispel, just read the introduction of Paul's letter to practically any church, here's the one from Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Are these not the same exact terms Catholics use to elevate Mary, of which Paul is applying to the entire Body of Christ?

As far as the "Mary the mother of God"... Obviously she was a special circumstance. Everything God does is special. However the one instance we have, Biblically, when someone tries to elevate her for that reason alone, Jesus shoots it down:
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

aspen · Dec 14, 2010

TexUs said:
Has anyone pulled out Judges 5:24 yet? I think if Catholics were uniform in their teachings they'd also idolize Jael.
Or perhaps "blessed among women" doesn't mean the same thing as "elevated above all other women".

Oh so we are now moving away from the "blessed" argument since it has no legs to stand on and moving back to the "mother" argument and now a "grace" argument?

Well, the Grace one is easy enough to dispel, just read the introduction of Paul's letter to practically any church, here's the one from Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Are these not the same exact terms Catholics use to elevate Mary, of which Paul is applying to the entire Body of Christ?

As far as the "Mary the mother of God"... Obviously she was a special circumstance. Everything God does is special. However the one instance we have, Biblically, when someone tries to elevate her for that reason alone, Jesus shoots it down:
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Being full of grace is unique - offering grace and peace in a general way to an entire church body is different than claiming that one person is full of grace. In fact, if I claimed a person, other than Mary, was full of grace, based on our other discussion regarding total depravity, I believe you would have grounds to disagree with me.

And I am glad that you recognize that Mary is unique in her role as the mother of God. Of course Jesus was correct in including all Christians, regardless of family ties in the Body of Christ. This comment was not meant to exclude His family - it was rightly, meant to include all people regardless of roles - just like Paul in Galatians 3:28

TexUs · Dec 14, 2010

aspen said:
Being full of grace is unique - offering grace and peace in a general way to an entire church body is different than claiming that one person is full of grace. In fact, if I claimed a person, other than Mary, was full of grace, based on our other discussion regarding total depravity, I believe you would have grounds to disagree with me.

First- prove "full of grace".
The Greek for "full of grace" is "plaras karitos", and is never used in Luke 1, and the two places it is used, don't reference Mary (John 1:14 and Acts 6:8).

This is, once more, the non-Biblical teachings of men.

aspen said:
And I am glad that you recognize that Mary is unique in her role as the mother of God. Of course Jesus was correct in including all Christians, regardless of family ties in the Body of Christ. This comment was not meant to exclude His family - it was rightly, meant to include all people regardless of roles - just like Paul in Galatians 3:28

I'm glad we agree. Now if you'd just apply this to grace, blessing, peace, holiness, etc...
You need to read this passage a bit closer, I think. They called to him as in, "Surely, your mother and family are most important" and he turned that notion down. He didn't do a "regardless of roles"... He SHOT DOWN the notion of roles here.

Anastacia · Dec 14, 2010

aspen said:
And I am glad that you recognize that Mary is unique in her role as the mother of God. Of course Jesus was correct in including all Christians, regardless of family ties in the Body of Christ. This comment was not meant to exclude His family - it was rightly, meant to include all people regardless of roles - just like Paul in Galatians 3:28

The Jewish Mary is the mother of the human Jesus. It is not correct to say Mary is the Mother of God. Yes Jesus is God in the flesh. And we know that God the Father doesn't have a mother, for God created everything through Jesus Christ. Catholics exalt Mary, they even pray to Jesus through Mary....that is not biblical.

And aspen, you say "Jesus was correct in including all Christians..." well how big of you to confirm that Jesus was correct. Don't you think it sounds a little strange for you to say that?

I have observed that Catholics are very concerned about the way Jesus spoke to his mother at times....calling her "woman" and in another scripture pointing to his disciples saying "Here are my mother and my brothers". Catholics really are distraught about it. They don't understand the scriptures, that Jesus didn't come to get married, have children, be Mary's son---Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, to reconcile us to God, to save us, to give us eternal life.
Catholics have such a hard time with it, they lean on their own understanding. Of course Jesus loved his mother. Of course Mary is blessed to of been Jesus' earthly mother, and to show that Mary is blessed, yet not to be exalted, when woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Questions For A Catholic

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