Jesus died for ALL

Nancy · Apr 11, 2021

Tong2020 said:
When a blind man receive his sight by the miracle of Jesus, is there action done by the blind man in receiving his sight?

Tong
R2585

Amen brother,
We "receive" ALL good things from God and it is not called "works". So, the biggest and best gift given us is Him and His forgiveness. A gift is nothing unless received. Why would anybody refuse a gift given down from the hand of God? He died for ALL people yet, not all will "receive" this awesome gift. SMH.

justbyfaith · Apr 11, 2021

Tong2020 said:
However I do not know how to respond to such an answer.

Because my answer shows forth the ridiculousness of your position when you say that both:

1) those who do not believe are Jesus' sheep; and,

2) Jesus only died for His sheep.

Tong2020 · Apr 11, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Because my answer shows forth the ridiculousness of your position when you say that both:

1) those who do not believe are Jesus' sheep; and,

2) Jesus only died for His sheep.

Your answers evaded the question, that’s why.

Jesus said “ you do not believe because you are not of my sheep”. I was asking of what Jesus was saying there. I asked because it seems to me that you have an objection to what Jesus said there or you take it to mean differently.

What you take my position to be has nothing to do with my question to you. Besides you seem to easily forget what my position is with regards the death of Jesus Christ, what it accomplished.

Tong
R2627

justbyfaith · Apr 11, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Your answers evaded the question, that’s why.

Jesus said “ you do not believe because you are not of my sheep”. I was asking of what Jesus was saying there. I asked because it seems to me that you have an objection to what Jesus said there or you take it to mean differently.

What you take my position to be has nothing to do with my question to you. Besides you seem to easily forget what my position is with regards the death of Jesus Christ, what it accomplished.

Tong
R2627

If you will combine the two concepts 1) and 2) you will be able to understand my point of view concerning the issue.

Taken · Apr 11, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Therefore, believing not, if it means that you are not of His sheep; then those who believe not are not of His sheep and Jesus didn't die for them; they are not of his elect. And therefore those who don't currently believe can't be saved; because He didn't die for them: they are not of His elect.

Thus, Jesus' statement that "The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost;" is null and void.

Jesus Offered the Death of His Body FOR ALL.

....That ACT He Announced beforehand....
John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Just before His bodily Death, He Said:

John 19:
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

From that Day to This...(and unknown time into future)...
* Every man Who Believes IN God AND Jesus IS Gods Christ AND confess that belief...IS Accepting Jesus' Offering and ARE Jesus' Sheep.
* Every Israelite who Historically AND presently Believe IN God and His Word and Remain Faithful Under (by their power) the Law ARE Gods ELECT.
* Every Israelite who Believes In God and Gods Word IS Jesus and Jesus IS The Christ and confesses that Belief...Are Jesus' sheep.
(They ARE NOT calling themselves Christians.
The Call themselves Messanic Jews).

* God ELECTED, the Hebrews, Tribes, Jews.
God Offered The Lost Elect (following other gods and gentile traditions) ... Salvation;
Right THEN Through Jesus Christ....
* OR
remain under the Law and ENDURE the difficulty, hardships, pentalies, under their own power, for the remainder of their physical lives...and should they Remain Faithful, at physical death...they would be Saved.
(No "immediate" Salvation given them...
Because they reject Jesus IS the Christ)

The Gentiles After the Jews, were Offered "immediate" Salvation for Their "Confessions of Belief"...which continues today...
"They" ARE Jesus' Sheep FOR "their", ELECTION of God and His Christ.
God GAVE "THEM" (every man Accepting Jesus is the Christ; TO Jesus...His Sheep).

1 Thes 1
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

John 18:
[9] That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Glory to God,
Taken

amigo de christo · Apr 11, 2021

Taken said:
Jesus DIED for ALL.
Jesus' BODILY Death was OFFERED to ALL.
Not ALL accept his DEATH.
His Sheep, ACCEPT his DEATH.

Lets add just one more word . They accept His death and RESSURECTION .
Now let the glorious LORD be praised . From morning , noon and night let the Lord be praised .

amigo de christo · Apr 11, 2021

Nancy said:
Amen brother,
We "receive" ALL good things from God and it is not called "works". So, the biggest and best gift given us is Him and His forgiveness. A gift is nothing unless received. Why would anybody refuse a gift given down from the hand of God? He died for ALL people yet, not all will "receive" this awesome gift. SMH.

Let the LORD be praised my dear sister .
That indeed is the only condemantion . THEY wont COME TO HIM that they might have life . THERE IT IS . real short and real simple .
The LORD is our only hope . PRAISE the GLORIOUS and MAGNFICENT KING . There simply is no other hope , no other gospel .
BELEIVE in the LORD JESUS . Confess Him by mouth and believe from the heart that GOD has rose Him from the dead
and ye shall be saved . LET THE LORD be praised .
Just dont be false like i once was . Cause i could say JESUS , but my works proved i loved sin and the world . Yeah i was still lost .
OH but praise be to the glorious LORD for truly drawing me to Christ and changing my heart .
Now , let all that has breath praise the glorious and wonderous Lord . IF you cant leap up and dance a jig of praise , At least raise those
hands sister and let the LORD be praised . OUR ONLY HOPE . PRAISE THE LORD .

Tong2020 · Apr 11, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Your answers evaded the question, that’s why.

Jesus said “ you do not believe because you are not of my sheep”. I was asking of what Jesus was saying there. I asked because it seems to me that you have an objection to what Jesus said there or you take it to mean differently.

What you take my position to be has nothing to do with my question to you. Besides you seem to easily forget what my position is with regards the death of Jesus Christ, what it accomplished.

Click to expand...

If you will combine the two concepts 1) and 2) you will be able to understand my point of view concerning the issue.

I do understand that you don’t believe what Jesus said to mean what it plainly says and take it to mean what you make it to mean, that it is not because they are His sheep that they don’t believe Him, but mean something else.

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Do you have a little grandchild? If he/she is already able to read, try to have him/her read that passage and ask him/her what he/she understand in what Jesus said in verse 26. You will be surprised.

Tong
R2629

Tong2020 · Apr 11, 2021

amigo de christo said:
Nancy said: ↑
Amen brother,
We "receive" ALL good things from God and it is not called "works". So, the biggest and best gift given us is Him and His forgiveness. A gift is nothing unless received. Why would anybody refuse a gift given down from the hand of God? He died for ALL people yet, not all will "receive" this awesome gift. SMH.

Click to expand...

Let the LORD be praised my dear sister .
That indeed is the only condemantion . THEY wont COME TO HIM that they might have life . THERE IT IS . real short and real simple .
The LORD is our only hope . PRAISE the GLORIOUS and MAGNFICENT KING . There simply is no other hope , no other gospel .
BELEIVE in the LORD JESUS . Confess Him by mouth and believe from the heart that GOD has rose Him from the dead
and ye shall be saved . LET THE LORD be praised .
Just dont be false like i once was . Cause i could say JESUS , but my works proved i loved sin and the world . Yeah i was still lost .
OH but praise be to the glorious LORD for truly drawing me to Christ and changing my heart .
Now , let all that has breath praise the glorious and wonderous Lord . IF you cant leap up and dance a jig of praise , At least raise those
hands sister and let the LORD be praised . OUR ONLY HOPE . PRAISE THE LORD .

<<<THEY wont COME TO HIM that they might have life . >>>

Why?

Regarding coming to Christ, that is, believing in Christ, here’s what Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). He also said “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. (John 6:65)”.

We also have this passage:

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Also @Nancy

Tong
2630

justbyfaith · Apr 12, 2021

Tong2020 said:
I do understand that you don’t believe what Jesus said to mean what it plainly says and take it to mean what you make it to mean, that it is not because they are His sheep that they don’t believe Him, but mean something else.

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Do you have a little grandchild? If he/she is already able to read, try to have him/her read that passage and ask him/her what he/she understand in what Jesus said in verse 26. You will be surprised.

Tong
R2629

Now, when you combine that passage with the Calvinistic viewpoint that Jesus only died for His sheep; which are the elect; and that if someone is not of the elect, they cannot come to Christ;

It follows that if someone does not currently believe, they are not of the elect (because they do not believe and are therefore not of His sheep; and therefore He didn't die for them), and therefore those who currently believe not cannot, ever, come to Christ (because they are not of His elect).

Therefore the statement made by Jesus, that "The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost;" is rendered null and void by the Calvinistic understanding that Jesus only died for His sheep; if you couple that with the scripture that says that the scribes and Pharisees believed not because they were not of His sheep; and conclude from that, that those who currently believe not are not of Jesus' sheep.

Jhn 8:43, Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 8:47, He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Tong2020 · Apr 12, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
I do understand that you don’t believe what Jesus said to mean what it plainly says and take it to mean what you make it to mean, that it is not because they are His sheep that they don’t believe Him, but mean something else.

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Do you have a little grandchild? If he/she is already able to read, try to have him/her read that passage and ask him/her what he/she understand in what Jesus said in verse 26. You will be surprised.

Click to expand...

Now, when you combine that passage with the Calvinistic viewpoint that Jesus only died for His sheep; which are the elect; and that if someone is not of the elect, they cannot come to Christ;

It follows that if someone does not currently believe, they are not of the elect (because they do not believe and are therefore not of His sheep; and therefore He didn't die for them), and therefore those who currently believe not cannot, ever, come to Christ (because they are not of His elect).

Therefore the statement made by Jesus, that "The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost;" is rendered null and void by the Calvinistic understanding that Jesus only died for His sheep; if you couple that with the scripture that says that the scribes and Pharisees believed not because they were not of His sheep; and conclude from that, that those who currently believe not are not of Jesus' sheep.

Jhn 8:43, Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 8:47, He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Forget about Calvinistic view point.

<<<and conclude from that, that those who currently believe not are not of Jesus' sheep.>>>

Who is making that conclusion?

Tong
R2634

justbyfaith · Apr 12, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Forget about Calvinistic view point.

No; because that is what I am dealing with here.

Tong2020 said:
<<<and conclude from that, that those who currently believe not are not of Jesus' sheep.>>>

Who is making that conclusion?

Calvinists.

Tong2020 · Apr 12, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
Forget about Calvinistic view point.

Click to expand...

No; because that is what I am dealing with here.

Fine. Them bring and deal that with a Calvinist because I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. I read, believe, study and follow only the teachings of Christ.

justbyfaith said:
Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<and conclude from that, that those who currently believe not are not of Jesus' sheep.>>>

Who is making that conclusion?

Click to expand...

Calvinists.

So bring your argument to them, not to me.

Tong
R2642

justbyfaith · Apr 12, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Fine. Them bring and deal that with a Calvinist because I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. I read, believe, study and follow only the teachings of Christ.

So bring your argument to them, not to me.

Tong
R2642

Do you believe that Jesus only died for His sheep?

Because that question is what is on the table here.

It is a Calvinistic belief; but you are saying you are not a Calvinist so I assume that you do not believe it.

Nevertheless I believe that the Calvinistic position that I have been dealing with has been effectively dealt with; and that therefore if there are any Calvinistic onlookers they will see how that doctrine of Calvinism is faulty.

So yes, I am bringing my argument to them as well as to you; because this is a public forum.

Tong2020 · Apr 12, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Do you believe that Jesus only died for His sheep?

Because that question is what is on the table here.

It is a Calvinistic belief; but you are saying you are not a Calvinist so I assume that you do not believe it.

Nevertheless I believe that the Calvinistic position that I have been dealing with has been effectively dealt with; and that therefore if there are any Calvinistic onlookers they will see how that doctrine of Calvinism is faulty.

So yes, I am bringing my argument to them as well as to you; because this is a public forum.

<<<Do you believe that Jesus only died for His sheep?>>>

Regarding the forgiveness of sin, Christ Jesus did not die for all men, but only for his church, his lost sheep.

Regarding atonement, Christ Jesus died for all men, for all have sinned.

<<<So yes, I am bringing my argument to them as well as to you; because this is a public forum.>>>

Thanks but no thanks. I will not talk about what others believe. We can talk about what you believe and what I believe and what scriptures teach.

Tong
R2646

justbyfaith · Apr 12, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Regarding the forgiveness of sin, Christ Jesus did not die for all men, but only for his church, his lost sheep.

If Jesus only died for His sheep; and those who currently do not believe are not His sheep, then He didn't die for those who currently do not believe. Therefore they are not of the elect in Calvinistic thinking; and therefore they cannot come to Christ because they are not of His elect. They cannot be saved because they don't believe.

Thus the only ones who can be saved are those who already believe.

Thus Jesus' statement that "The Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost;" is rendered null and void.

Tong2020 said:
Thanks but no thanks. I will not talk about what others believe.

But it is apparently true that your belief is in conjunction with what Calvinists believe and that your belief has been being addressed in my most recent posts in this thread.

It is clear to me from your posts that if you are not Calvinist, yet you are in agreement with much of what Calvinism teaches.

Therefore if you will not answer for the Calvinists, I will conclude that it is because you do not have an answer.

And therefore, if no Calvinist steps up to defend his faith, I have won the argument by default.

I do believe that there are Calvinists lurking somewhere; and therefore if they cannot arise and defend their position, it is because their position is faulty.

Because I believe it to be true that if they had an answer, they would bring it forth in defense of what they do believe in.

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Jesus died for ALL

Nancy

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